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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

KirbyKaze

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Marth's random fsmash is huge in this matchup because since she is often going airborne really predictably you can land these and if they tip fairly often you are probably going to win. Tipper fsmash is also safe on shield so basically be really good at fsmashing aka be a good Marth and you will definitely compete with Jiggs.
You should play Idea. He has this hilarious gimmicky KO where, when thinks Marth is gonna swing for a tipped f-smash, he rolls through it and Rests Marth during the f-smash lag. When it first worked on me ever, I was so baffled by it that I ran a frame calc and apparently it's got roughly 10 frame room for error or something; it's really quite funny.

I'm not sure it would get you or anything but I think it would be a funny thing. All this talk of f-smash is making me think of roll rest.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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no i think half the issue is that actually doing dash-pivot-fsmash is pretty hard to aim and just do. Do you even have time to react before you must dash?
 

KirbyKaze

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Puff's initial ducking animation actually beats Marth's running grab iirc. And it's one of the few things she can straight up sidestep Rest.

Not really sure how much of that means anything though because usually Marth grabbing Puff is a response to conditioning them to hold block in fear of being hit by Marth's gigantic sword. Maybe this could add some more depth to the anti-crouch game but it sounds like it would probably just get Puff trying to be more gimmicky with evasive WDs, spontaneous ducks, and other nonsense.

But that's just how it's playing in my brain.

I do think the pivot f-smash tipper is probably something that needs to be looked into more. Killing Puff at lowish percents reliably (or semi-reliably) is a really beautiful thing. Just ask Fox.



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leffen

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yeah, I ment running grab as in beating WD oos from sheild more than straight up ducking (just hit her if shes crouching).
 

Niko45

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I think that dude ARC from the midwest has talked about how easy it is if you actually sit down and try to learn to do the pivot fsmash stuff on Jiggs. I have put no effort into learning this because I just don't run into Jiggs enough to care but obviously maximizing punishes is always a good thing.

I really think the much harder part is actually landing grabs on Jiggs at high level. You can condition her into shield and then call a roll or grab her if she sits in shield too long but lots of good Jiggs will roll into duck so you need to be on point or you're dead.

Oh KK about that roll into rest thing: Is that a situation where you're fsmashing AS he rolls or he shields the fsmash, then rolls, then rests? I feel like there's no way he could have time to rest you if the fsmash hits shield.
 

leffen

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Conditioning her into shield is really all you need for hitting a grab, you dont need to call a roll etc if you can just grab her when she is shielding.

Considering how easy it is to force Jigglypuff to shield I really cannot see how its hard getting a grab on her. Your grab can punish every single ground option she has (including the startup of her jump) and she cannot get around your kill moves when she isnt on the ground.

I really think that killing isnt a huge problem for marth, its just that the marths arent practicing.
 

Niko45

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Well w/e I just disagree. Forcing a Jiggs to shield isn't exactly easy. Considering her air mobility she owns almost as much space at any given time as Marth does. Aside from tippers she doesn't even have to be afraid of getting hit all that much, because you are not going to death combo her or gimp her (another reason why whoring out the duck is so good in the MU).
 

KirbyKaze

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Oh KK about that roll into rest thing: Is that a situation where you're fsmashing AS he rolls or he shields the fsmash, then rolls, then rests? I feel like there's no way he could have time to rest you if the fsmash hits shield.
Marth's f-smash does something like a billion shield stun if it tips.

Rolls take 30ish frames.

F-smash takes 47 frames or so to complete, and has an active hitbox on frames 10-13 (I think).

Based off this information, which do you think it is?
 

Biglard

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Marth's f-smash does something like a billion shield stun if it tips.

Rolls take 30ish frames.

F-smash takes 47 frames or so to complete, and has an active hitbox on frames 10-13 (I think).

Based off this information, which do you think it is?
It depends, in how many frames does the rest's hitbox come out?

:troll:
 

Strong Badam

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if he's tipping you and you're grounded it's probably frame 12 or 13.
tipper has 10 frames of shieldstun fresh
roll is 34 frames (you can start rest & have its hitbox out on frame 35)
f-smash IASA is frame 48
rest would come out on frame 45 or so after the f-smash hits if done perfectly... which would put Marth at frame 57 or 58 of his f-smash (i.e. has been able to do something for ~10 frames)

I'm not seeing it assuming F-Smash hits.
 

KirbyKaze

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I checked my wording because I was nervous my original post on it was unclear. But I said "rolls through the f-smash" so now I'm not worried.
 

KirbyKaze

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Doc > Samus > Ganon

Pika somewhere in the above but I have no clue where. Same for Mario. I'm not 100% of this, but I'm beginning to feel Ganon's potential is really bad just because he's a slow, easy-to-hit character that can be death comboed or trapped in awful situations for long periods. He has some death combos (both illegitimate and legitimate), a lot of gimmicks that give him really random first-hit potential, a lot of range (compromised by speed issue somewhat), and huge damage potnetial but it's really hard to get a grab on Sheik, or a clean stomp on someone like Fox (and having to guess on tech chases is really, really crippling; Sheik doesn't and her death combos are still far from guaranteed just because of human error, number of iterations you need to kill, slow damage build, etc).

Ganon with momentum is freaking great, though, and that would be (IMHO) what puts him above Samus. Samus doesn't really have the combo game or intimidation to really get the ball rolling in the same way that Ganon, Falcon, Fox, Falco, and others can. I feel that while Ganon can just get something rolling and crush the opponent's sense of self, Samus is more of a war of attrition and breaking them takes a lot longer (so, barring MU unfamiliarity, she's not good at beating better people or getting bullcrap wins). In exchange, she takes significantly more hits to kill, which opens up more opportunity for Samus to learn the opponent's style and/or find a way to outplay them. Ganon might die at 150% but if he gets combo'd to 60, trapped on a platform, combo'd for another 30, hit offstage, and then edgeguarded systematically (easy to do) then he's only lasted one, maybe two hits out of the neutral position.

Beyond knowing that Sheik ***** both of them and Samus is a lot better against the space animals, I'm not really sure what their MU breakdown is against the other significant characters. But I can't imagine either is good against Puff, I can't see Peach being horrific for either, and I lack the familiarity with the remaining two or three (Ice Climbers, Marth, Falcon) to really feel comfortable saying anything about (and there's a lot of variety on MU opinions for them, so I don't feel comfortable referring to anyone in particular either).

Anyway, regarding Doc being pushed up, Shroomed is honestly to blame for me thinking Doc is so high. His performances and strategies have really convinced me that Doc has legitimate answers for the vast majority of what the metagame throws at him. I feel he's sort of a weird middle point between Ganon and Samus in that he has a decent combo game out of throw, like Ganon, but also fast enough to react to certain tech situations without needing option coverage or whatever. He gets comboed by people, but not as hard as Ganon, but not as lightly as Samus. In exchange, though, I feel he escapes juggles (think Marth uair, Sheik uair, etc.) better than Ganon and Samus because of his lower hangtime than Samus, and his faster moves than Ganon. I also feel his aerials generally have more priority than Samus's, or stay out longer, and although it's sort of novel his Up+B finishing quicker than Samus's and getting him to platforms faster is situationally really useful for getting his jump back. His offstage recovery, I feel, is a bit worse than Samus's but the fact that he can attack immediately at low percents gives him a more flexible recovery mixup than Ganon (or Samus, in a lot of cases). I guess I feel that, despite his recovery being bad, he has more potential to be tricky with it than Ganon and Samus (okay, maybe not Samus, but certainly Ganon).

Pikachu is tough as balls to fit in because I feel he should get ripped apart by Sheik but if he doesn't fight a Sheik, he's actually got some good gimmicks and high damage output potential to really put the hurt on most characters (even Sheik). His total inability to approach Puff and Peach if they play super gay is troublesome, though. Ice Climbers also seem very nasty to him. Mario is hard to place because he feels like a Doc with a watered down chain grab, an f-smash that's useable as an approach or defense (but overusing it invites baiting; it's not spammable by any means and it's easy to evade-punish with fast characters, or if you're just out of his range), a more reliable up tilt (but the horizontal hit on Doc's often enables an edgegaurd or gimp setup, which can be potentially high momentum shift, and the launch is still easily doable during most combos or vs high approaches), worse gimping, arguably worse projectile, better recovery, and a worse up smash (Doc's up smash is freaking sick). These differences range from important to small, with small generally being more dominant, but thats a lot of small differences and they do add up. I think he's below Ganon at the moment, but I'm really not sure.

Following that, in a lower tier, I have:

DK > Young Link > Link

Mario is definitely better than those three, same with Pika because duh. Chain grabs with moves that hit while facing front and back, real anti-air moves when grounded (Mario), nearly dirty combos (Pikachu more but Mario too), and gimping (Pika more but Mario too) make them better. They're also better at camping fast characters than the Links because they don't rely on slow projectiles to limit approaches.

I currently have them in that order. DK just because I still think he's significantly better vs Fox than the Links (still horrible, though) but that's subject to change (maybe put him in between the Links?) because Young Link is more suited for floaty MUs and I think his counterpicks against non-space animals are stronger. Normally I'd say FD is gonna get banned anyway so it's not even a real point for DK, but I also have super secret MBR information that affects such an issue so it's a legitimate point (or will be, shortly, kind of). That's about as obscure as I can go, I think.

Young Link greater than Link in this meta, I think. Link is better against approaching characters like an aggressive Falcon or Fox, I feel, because of his greater KB that induces knockdown or combos earlier. His range also covers more space, which allows him greater flexibility in beating approaches from a stationary position. His range matters a lot. I think his younger alter-ego is more equipped to deal with camping characters because he has the speed to not get shut out by them as hard and also outcamps the floaties pretty hard.

Zelda is still difficult to place because her MU spread with good dash dance camp characters is really dynamic. Against characters with good dash dance games and high tier status or greater (Fox, Falcon, Marth), her MUs are worse than 80-20 or so if the opponent plays super duper gay and refuses to get hit by this slow horrible character (this isn't unanimous; I just believe Mow when he says Zelda is as bad as he says he is). And her Sheik MU is comparable bad to those three (it's better, probably, but still like 80-20 or so). But after those four MU, nothing is really unwinnable or horrible. Whereas a lot of low tiers like Bowser or whatever continue to have horrific MUs until they reach the bottom of the tier list, Zelda literally goes from 80-20 nearly unwinnable to 60-40 disadvantage or better with nothing in between. I feel if you can somehow only get Falcos, Peaches, and Puffs she's arguably better than Young Link, but unfortunately Fox is still the most common character. Still, in a different meta, she seems like she could be pretty high up (even if unfairly so).



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Winston

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Woah, where did that serious tier discussion come from?

I want to comment but all I can really say is that I think Mario is definitely worse than Ganon.

All the differences result in a character that suffers from the same difficulties in neutral as Doc (having mediocre range AND mediocre speed), but without most of the dangerous things Doc threatens to do if he finds an opening or you mess up.

Shroomed manufactures so many low-mid percent KOs with (short setup) -> dsmash -> edgeguard. Chaingrab -> Dthrow -> Dsmash. Aerial -> Dsmash. Platform waveland -> dsmash. When their percent gets a little higher, he gets to score off of any mistake with usmash oos -> fair or uthrow -> fair.

Mario basically can't do any of that unless they are DIing down and away on your dsmash to simulate the effect of Doc's dsmash. Comboing into fsmash requires a lot more cooperation on their part in terms of in-DI, which they have no incentive to do really considering Mario's moves are so weak.

This might be ok if he could edgeguard, but his bair really isn't a reliable tool for that, unlike Doc's. His cape coverage is a lot worse as well. (Compare http://i.imgur.com/mwBEg.gif and http://i.imgur.com/SMoR6.gif).

Mario really has to get his kills with gimps, fsmashes, or by being really tricky so as to confuse their defensive decisions. Doc has some tools he can rely on, which to me makes a world of difference in their effectiveness.
 

KirbyKaze

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Serious discussion came from... I'm not sure, but I think we should get into character-discussion mode again because we have some big tournaments coming up (The Big House, ROM4, APEX 2012) and it's cool to get everyone thinking about strategy, predictions, etc. for the upcoming events. "Let's play, The Metagame!" Something like that.

I forget Doc's significantly better cape hitbox. And yeah, I dont think people realize how crippling Mario's weaker down smash and less-gimpy bair is. Doc is way better at setting up scary edgeguards. I think his 2-step game is also a lot better than Mario's because u-smash > fair, u-smash > grab, or u-smash > another smash is really painful, as having ways of setting up kill moves on non-FFers in addition to FFers is something Mario doesn't really enjoy.

Like, Mango's Mario is freaking sick and I love it, but I feel he sort of exemplifies a lot of the struggles that Mario has to deal with. His approaches aren't that good, so he has to be careful and zone. He doesn't have a great kill method so he has to make a lot more reads and keep careful spacing at all times, which adds transparency to his game. His limitations seem pronounced even when someone as good as Mango (or Scorpion Master, I guess) is in the cockpit.

Doc seems a lot better. I dunno. Higher effectiveness in generic situations, a good heavy aerial vs floaties (Mario's fair is cute but Doc's fair killing really does make a difference and his combos on platforms are still good because Doc's waveland grab is actually fairly decent), and greater overall kill potential is really useful.

On a more light-hearted note, I'm sort of afraid to ask people if they feel Mewtwo is better than Zelda or not. But I'm curious to whether anyone has anything new to say about that one. Though, there hasn't been much development for either character in the past few months (that I know of) what with Cosmo playing OOT and Taj playing Marth at Genesis 2. But maybe I just missed something important?



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KirbyKaze

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I just like seeing if anyone has anything to say about it. That MU was once a hot topic. ;)

I'm worried this will steer discussion away from the mid tiers that I want to discuss, but if I can get some short answers then I don't have to put off asking or wait, and that would be nice.

I'm rooting for Zelda, btw. F-smash for life!
 

KirbyKaze

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I see you there, leffen.

I'm kind of interested in your input, being from a different version with a different smash culture, and while NTSC isn't your version of choice you do often have good points. Let's chat!

:)




edit: You tease! :(
 

The Star King

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They are both really close and really bad, so who cares?
Hey man, Zelda vs Mewtwo is serious business. Probably the most discussed match-up in the MU thread, got its own thread, and has debated in this very thread. This contest is no joke.

I don't get it.
 

the_CAM_factor

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whoa good post kirby kaze, how long did that freaking take!?
anyways i do believe that doc is a better character than ganondorf and samus. I think if other people gave him a shot and experimented with him this wouldn't even be debated. He is one of the characters that im surprised is so underused for how good he has been shown to be.
zelda vs mewtwo, im not even gonna touch.
but the latest tier list has mario and luigi next to each other and im not sure i agree with that... and mario being higher than luigi is another discussion that is also debatable.
 

Strife

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anyways i do believe that doc is a better character than ganondorf and samus. I think if other people gave him a shot and experimented with him this wouldn't even be debated. He is one of the characters that im surprised is so underused for how good he has been shown to be.
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The mid-tier characters are all under-used imo. It's a shame the melee community isn't as big as it used to be, because I'd love to see more of these mid-tiers pushed further and with more variety than they are now. *sigh*

On another note does anyone else think that Peach may very well be better than Marth now?
 

choknater

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i can't decide between mewtwo and zelda...

as for your doc>samus>ganon comparison, i'd have to agree, but i'd like to say some things in ganon's defense. if i think about the peach matchup vs fox, falco, and falcon, i notice that in order for her to make up for the glaring speed disadvantage, she has to cover her tracks by throwing out her priority. like randomly nairing, floating and fairing safely even if it hits nothing, throwing out a turnip to make an approach safe, spacing with wd back dtilt/dsmash, and (in macd's case) random usmash.

the case is the same with ganon, but even more so. he has to throw out moves like bair so that 1. he keeps moving, and stays defensive without having to sheild and 2. to stuff approaches. however with many games against bizzarro flame i realize that his offensive potential can be greatly increased with wavelands. i know this might be hard to imagine, but try to imagine a ganon that has the option of a perfect waveland 100% of the time that he is in the air. it's realistic because i've fought it before, and i put in my own practice with ganon and realized that it's not that hard to do with him.

he can do this both defensively (wland away) or offensively (wland towards + jab/grab, or wd off platform to aerial.)

i don't want to hype this up too much, but i am just taking notice of this because i think it can potentially push ganon forward, and his current status of being below samus/doc isn't permanent, just like any tier placing isn't permanent.





anyway, time to do what i told myself i'm going to do today: watch and study plup videos. *hyped for advent II vids. are they out yet?*
 

SamusPoop

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Doc > Samus > Ganon

His offstage recovery, I feel, is a bit worse than Samus's but the fact that he can attack immediately at low percents gives him a more flexible recovery mixup than Ganon (or Samus, in a lot of cases). I guess I feel that, despite his recovery being bad, he has more potential to be tricky with it than Ganon and Samus (okay, maybe not Samus, but certainly Ganon).

I think you're pushing his recovery out a bit more than it should get landing on stage/platform(hardly an option) you either die or get reset into a place of their
choosing his pills are decent but I would think marth, sheik, and maybe falco could easily bair through the pill only to hit doc in the face. puff would likly go out there to get him so it
wouldn't matter much fox could edge stall the pill and beat him like nomral. I really don't see why he would have a note worthy recovery other than his down-B being hard and
could count as a stall unless i'm missing something. but I feel like shroomed has shwon how pills can be useful traps in keeping people would you want removing his speed issues
moreso than marios with them semi locked down.



These differences range from important to small, with small generally being more dominant, but thats a lot of small differences and they do add up. I think he's below Ganon at the moment, but I'm really not sure.
I like how mario compared to doc is basically saying do you want to combo them for damage or space/control? space/control/pressure seem to be better than raw
damage if I'm looking at it right.


Following that, in a lower tier, I have:

DK > Young Link > Link

I feel you should compare DK to gannon here just with a bit better ground speed, but lacking a fast jab but being replaced with a fast up-B(has it's ups and downs
like oos and to escape air combos a bit but lacks range and safeness) and DK gets comboed forever too and doesn't have any match-ups that anyone would use him just for
like YL or maybe even zedla vs ice climbers. I feel he should be below the links even if I've slowly seen more impressive DK players lately(they might work him up in time). Links
can get the ball rolling much easier and aen't as easy to get going on.


Young Link greater than Link in this meta, I think. Link is better against approaching characters like an aggressive Falcon or Fox, I feel, because of his greater KB that induces knockdown or combos earlier. His range also covers more space, which allows him greater flexibility in beating approaches from a stationary position. His range matters a lot. I think his younger alter-ego is more equipped to deal with camping characters because he has the speed to not get shut out by them as hard and also outcamps the floaties pretty hard.

Link an be said to be better for having better match-ups that count for more like you said vs fox, but I think he could also be lower to the fact YL is more useful
as a gimmick vs the fairly rare puff and peach. I think the only way we'd know is to know just how many people really use LY for those matches as couterpicks if it's only a few
maybe it really isn't worth saying YL is overall better in our current metagame due to lack of use for his claim to frame.


I feel you are mostly right just I think Link>YL>DK and everything else I agree with

.
the case is the same with ganon, but even more so. he has to throw out moves like bair so that 1. he keeps moving, and stays defensive without having to sheild and 2. to stuff approaches. however with many games against bizzarro flame i realize that his offensive potential can be greatly increased with wavelands. i know this might be hard to imagine, but try to imagine a ganon that has the option of a perfect waveland 100% of the time that he is in the air. it's realistic because i've fought it before, and i put in my own practice with ganon and realized that it's not that hard to do with him.

he can do this both defensively (wland away) or offensively (wland towards + jab/grab, or wd off platform to aerial.)

i don't want to hype this up too much, but i am just taking notice of this because i think it can potentially push ganon forward, and his current status of being below samus/doc isn't permanent, just like any tier placing isn't permanent.


Well it gets predictable fast watch IHSBs after like one or two matches you get a good idea when he'll waveland and whatnot also if he shs to waveland just sit at the
end of the waveland and throw out a safe move on a sheild that would beat or clank with a jab if you didn't read right well gannon can't get there fast enough so you're safe. i've
tryed this it has mixed resulted
In red so you can see my what i've reffering to.
 

ShroudedOne

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I feel that Doc > Ganon > Samus, because Samus, to me, seems like a character who has to rely a lot more on baiting/punishes/stupid movements than Doc (and kind of more than Ganon, too), which isn't really reliable.

I think the Links can approach better than DK, and they actually have MUs you'd want them for (like Samus Poop said). People tell me that Link should be over Ylink cause he can kill better, and I don't really see a reason to disagree.

ZELDA vs MEWTWO. Let's go. I heard about how big of an argument this was back in the day. Going to go look up some old threads. But I think Zelda is better than him, and the thing that makes this for me now is her range, compared to his. I'll have to think on it more.
 

choknater

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being predictable is not the same as having another option. anyone can be predictable with any tactic, my main point was that ganon's waveland increases what he can do from a neutral position. he doesn't ALWAYS have to do it.
 

Taj278

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If we look at performance against top 8 in general... I think M2 does better against the fast fallers, probably not by much though... M2 does equally well vs. ICs, a little better vs. Marth, does slightly worse against Peach, and much worse against Puff. I think M2 would only edge Zelda out if we weigh matchups against the fast fallers more heavily because we see them more in tourney.

Otherwise, Zelda has overall better matchups against the general cast, and if all characters had equal representation, Zelda wins in that regard.

That's my take on it, anyway.

:phone:
 

Stevo

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I think Younglink should be higher than DK (at least right now), but overall I agree with KK as well.

+1 for Zelda being as bad as Mow says she is. I havn't played her recently, but I pretty much mained her for a few years a while back, and if the opponent knows to play really "gay" then you have no chance in many matchups.

Mario is definitely not great. He doesn't really excel at anything, and is poor at many things.

Nobody mentioned Luigi, but I am not really sure where he should be put, to be honest. Is he good enough to even mention in a tournament viable tier discussion? I don't even know.
 

Strife

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As for Luigi I'm really not sure at how I feel about him. I think his on stage game is fantastic, probably comparable to Doc's, but he is just so gimpable and his revocery can be exploited so danm hard. If someone could truly fine legitimate ways to recover with Luigi then he has the potential to be at the top of mid-tier imo. But I haven't seen anything close to this since Ka-Master, and he's been retired for like over a year now.
 
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