Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[john!]

so we're posting new tier list opinions?

i believe the space animals deserve their own tier. their potential exceeds that of any other character and they continue to be the most used in tournament.

next tier is sheik, puff, marth. marth may belong in the tier below... it's difficult to tell, because people don't seem to play him anymore, yet he clearly still has the tools to go even with all the characters above him (with the possible exception of sheik). i'd put him in this tier though, simply due to the fact that he only has one bad matchup among the top 5.

next tier is peach, falcon, icies. armada's success warrants peach's placement above falcon. i'm not sure whether icies belong in this tier, but the few pro icies players tend to do really well when they are on their game.

having three small tiers might seem weird, but the metagame is so fleshed out after 10 years that we can sort the most used characters into small groups based on their subtle differences in power levels.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why?

Fox at the top because he is the most flexible character in the game in my opinion thanks to Shine, recovery mix-ups, good KO power and insane speed.

Falco comes second because he is like an easier, yet more limited Fox. While he can't space as well as Fox with speed, he makes up for that with lasers. He is easier to be consistent with but thanks to Mango's recent performance with Fox, I believe Fox is better in the current metagame.

Sheik comes in next because she is just overall good, she can KO, recover, she has range, she can combo and she is almost as fast as Fox. She just plain has better tools than everyone below her, but lack of shine and lasers puts her below the spacies.

Marth and Jigglypuff are a step down from the characters above in that they have more relevant and exposable flaws that are more noticeably difficult to cover up. Marth is still really good because of his grab game against the spacies and generally advantaged match-ups, but he just isn't as amazing as the characters above him.

Jigglypuff is good, but overhyped. She still loses to Fox and she has very few relevant +2 or better match-ups.

Peach > Falcon > ICs is just commonly accepted, I do feel that ICs deserve to be in the same tier as them thanks to Fly, Wobbles, etc...'s performance in recent times and their untapped potential. They have the least developed metagame of all of the viable characters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I refuse to comment until I determine whether my super secret anti-Puff technology works or not.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

these large amount of difficult match ups, especially with the chars higher than her make me believe that puff does not deserve to be ranked with falco, fox, shiek and marth, who have alot of potential and overall a larger amount of greater matchups. more puff players should learn to play, or atleast space like hbox (or mango) becuase he is one of the few players that has pushed a char to a max level, i just dont see puff going that much further in new techniques or skill, while i see the rest of the mentioned chars learning new techniques to help them in the near future.
i believe tournament representation and overall matchups should be a major component in determining tier.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The current prevailing Puff style isn't anywhere near maxed potential because nobody Rests or combos like King used to. There's a whole ton of unexplored avenues with Puff. Hungrybox just plays a high-consistency, low-risk style. But there's more to her than that.

Hell, there's a much better argument in existence for Marth being finished for potential just because the best players have always used him until 2008 and there's way more information, research, and professional opinion available for him. It's still a horrible argument because people still make the same mistakes with him over and over again, but at least it's kind of there...

Also, "A whole ton of greater matchups?" Her matchups against the top characters are pretty comparable to the rest of the top of the cast. She's arguably better vs the top characters than Marth is. You're basically referring to obscure characters but how many of them are actually good against Puff? Ice Climbers? Doc? Young Link?

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

As of now, I wouldn't really say that there's a top 5 but rather a top 6, Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Jiggs/Peach in no particular order. You can rearrange them around in any way you want but there's really no way any character goes above any of them.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

most puff players will argue that fox, marth and falco have a superior matchups against puff. it could be character johns and all but idk. i dont think any of the chars i mentioned are that obscure when they compromise a good percent of the tournament scene.

 

[KirbyKaze]

A lot of Marths will say Puff beats them. A lot of Falcos will say Puff beats them. Fox I'll grant you, but everyone says Fox beats them lol.

Sorry, but if we're pulling our MU facts from newbie Puff players then... I can't actually care about their opinions.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

A lot of Marths will say Puff beats them. A lot of Falcos will say Puff beats them. Fox I'll grant you, but everyone says Fox beats them lol.

Sorry, but if we're pulling our MU facts from newbie Puff players then... I can't actually care about their opinions.

that is very true, and i would love to hear the match up opinion coming from high level puff mains.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You're going to run into the same issue.

M2K claims Marth loses. Hungrybox says Marth wins.

I mean, people often dismiss M2K's opinion as "Oh, it's M2K" but I'm not sure there's much consensus on that particular MU. That one in particular I hear a lot of different answers for. "It's stage dependent" is one of my favourites!

Falco... I generally hear it's even but sometimes I hear Falco wins, Puff wins... depends on who you ask. I think PP said Puff beats Falco a while ago, but recently he said it's getting better. Still no real solid answer though.

Isn't matchup discussion based off the opinions of the top players fun? It's like there's no consistency or consensus across the board!



.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think Falco very slightly beats Jigglypuff and that Marth beats Jigglypuff pretty obviously :/

 

[the_CAM_factor]

everyone hates their character... huh =[
... or wants to be the underdog with an excuse if they lose i guess

 

[choknater]

i think i'm pretty realistic about my main

that said

50-50 ic's marth
63-37 ic's puff
42-58 ic's fox
40-60 ic's peach
47-53 ic's falcon
47-53 ic's falco
50-50 ic's ganon (very similar to fighting marth imo)
50-50 ic's samus
50-50 ic's doc

very well-rounded character imo

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with what Chok said.

Though I think Marth and Ganon are slightly our disadvantage, rather than even.

 

[Strong Badam]

50-50 ic's samus?
40-60 ic's peach is also more generous for IC's than I usually see.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICs bad match-ups are MAJORLY overrated because ICs have such a steep learning curve.

An average Peach can **** an average ICs, but at the top of the current meta-game, it isn't that bad. This applies to the Samus, Ganon and Marth match-ups as well.

 

[Strong Badam]

seems reasonable enough, but I have more posts than you.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

 

[Grim Tuesday]

edit: Oops, double post

 

[choknater]

i just camp

the way fly plays, i'm inclined to think that ic's win.

as for samus, all you have to do is get in and shield or fsmash. so free! you can combat her projectile game as long as it's not something dumb ilke pokemon stadium.

 

[Strong Badam]

projectiles just prevent IC's from wavedashing in for free like against other chars. since she doesn't really have many good, strong poking tilts with little endlag or an amazing dash dance game she settles for disrupting IC's movement.
imo/theorycrafting

 

[choknater]

she can wall herself in pretty well with utilt, ftilt, grounded bomb believe it or not, and her offense isn't bad if you can follow up cancelled missiles

however the matchup is pretty dynamic, and i'm gonna say it's even until i get more experience with it

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree that Samus disrupts ICs movement, but they can still get in with relative ease and punish hard when they do.

It isn't like Marth's sword against the Marios or anything, ICs can get past Samus' projectiles and tilts in the majority of situations.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ive always been told that samus > ics, and rat beats trail like every time they play... thats about all i know

 

[Max?]

It isn't like Marth's sword against the Marios or anything, ICs can get past Samus' projectiles and tilts in the majority of situations.

Just to chime in here, it's a serious misconception that the Mario's cannot get in on Marth. I'm 2-0 vs. HBK as of this summer and I don't think I've lost to a Marth besides Niko since like 09. There are a number of tools and tricks to get in on him. A lot of it deals with understanding how Marth as a character functions, and punishing him for just mindlessly trying to wall you out. He has to play a very reactive game if he plans on keeping someone out the whole time, and idk how realistic that is for a whole tournament set.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah i used to do the marth vs doc matchup with 18spikes a before he disappeared. Its in marth's favor but doc (and mario) have tools to fight marth if you understand marth's weaknesses.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

i think i'm pretty realistic about my main

that said

50-50 ic's marth
63-37 ic's puff
42-58 ic's fox
40-60 ic's peach
47-53 ic's falcon
47-53 ic's falco
50-50 ic's ganon (very similar to fighting marth imo)
50-50 ic's samus
50-50 ic's doc

very well-rounded character imo

You think Ganon ICs is 50-50? Why?

 

[Divinokage]

You think Ganon ICs is 50-50? Why?

I 4 stocked him at Genesis 2 and he dares to say it's 50-50? lol...

 

[KirbyKaze]

you also went 1-1 with fly amanita if i'm not mistaken

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Falco very slightly beats Jigglypuff and that Marth beats Jigglypuff pretty obviously :/

Falco wins side:

Lasers are awesome control tool and force her to approach awkwardly
Good at punishing awkward approaches
Repeat Dairs are basically a combo
Falco can do stuff to her crouch because of Dair
Bair is great
Up tilt is great
Shine Bair surprisingly decent way to get a surprise KO
Good rest punishes

Puff wins side:

Can fly over lasers
Gimping
Up throw combos to a lot
Rest in general
Bair beats all his moves even though it's hard to keep your back turned to him
Keeps him honest because Rest oos is so good it hurts
His up throw doesn't technically work if you DI the lasers
Outlives him by good amount
Trades with up moves can probably kill him
Crouching is still decent, just not OP like it is vs Falcon or w/e

There are more points for either and that's all I could think of at the moment. There are good players that support either, and some that support middle ground. So I'll just add you to the group that supports Falco winning.

Marth is a whole can of worms. But it basically boils down to the Marth-loses team saying, "Puff is comboable at low percents, we have great range, but we don't kill her until 170-200%. She, conversely, can kill us with combos anywhere from 0-???%, forces us to stay honest with her Rest oos shenanigans, and has some methods of trading kill moves with a Marth spacing move that are semi-reliable." Puffs-loses team will counter, "That only works if Marth loses his patience, Puff sucks at getting in, Marth players are bad. Yoshi's Story is dumb." Or something like that.

 

[Divinokage]

you also went 1-1 with fly amanita if i'm not mistaken

Lost match on FD which you know I suck *** on it. lol.

 

[choknater]

i'm getting better at the match up

getting 4 stocked once is not going to phase me

that's what the warrior attitude is all about, right? or do you just want me to wallow in shame and not learn?

also if we play again you know i'm pulling out young link just to keep things interesting.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Lost match on FD which you know I suck *** on it. lol.

You never let me have FD vs you so I wouldn't know...

 

[john!]

that's what the warrior attitude is all about, right? or do you just want me to wallow in shame and not learn?

the warrior attitude is about ascribing your losses to a neutral stage you didn't ban... =/

 

[choknater]

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayum john goin in

 

[john!]

lol... you just normally don't see that kinda talk from kage... i thought it was weird

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

it sounds like kage played fly in friendlies and thus didnt have a ban

 

[Niko45]

The bottom line is that Marth needs to random tipper Jigglypuff to win. This is not necessarily incredibly hard but it is the bottom line.

If she lives til 150% every stock you are bound to lose because she edgeguards and gimps the **** out of Marth pretty well.

I guess retreat fair beats puff bair but...there's very little room for error there. The neutral zoning struggle is very weird between them and hits sometimes seem random.

Ducking is enormous for Jiggs in this matchup.

A puff with good understanding of zoning pressure and good mixups between bairs/falling nair and Puff's very serviceable ground game does just fine in this matchup. I want to say it's even but it probably is in Puff's favor since I just think she has better mixups, all but shuts down Marth's grab game, and has much more potential for quick KOs than Marth does. If Marth starts landing fairs early he can combo her for a ton of damage and Puff living to 200 is just ludicrous because freaking UP AIR starts killing at like 140 and up airing jiggs is very easy once you've gotten her out of position. Marth's random fsmash is huge in this matchup because since she is often going airborne really predictably you can land these and if they tip fairly often you are probably going to win. Tipper fsmash is also safe on shield so basically be really good at fsmashing aka be a good Marth and you will definitely compete with Jiggs.

 

[Divinokage]

i'm getting better at the match up

getting 4 stocked once is not going to phase me

that's what the warrior attitude is all about, right? or do you just want me to wallow in shame and not learn?

also if we play again you know i'm pulling out young link just to keep things interesting.

Is that really the warrior attitude? You tell me. =)

lol... you just normally don't see that kinda talk from kage... i thought it was weird

Oh really? Well I like to play around and get reactions out of people. If I'm only going to do my warrior thing, at some point... it will get boring since that's the typical human behavior right? Once you've seen it enough times it gets boring.. a true warrior however is able to enjoy everything endlessly and be happy. =P Anyways, I have to mix it up at times too.

it sounds like kage played fly in friendlies and thus didnt have a ban

Exactly, it was for fun.

 

[Blistering Speed]

People are still debating that Marth can beat Puff? Seriously?

And yes, Puff has A TON of unexplored potential, people just don't play her because she's regarded as boring. You guys really think Hungrybox is pushing the boundaries with that character? No, Hungrybox is just really smart and knows how to play low risk.

I want to say:

1. Fox/Falco
2. Puff

...but I can't without seeing Puff pushed like spacies have been.