Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Grim Tuesday]

DK's shift over mario is probably the result of having better matchups than mario against 4 characters in the top ten: IC's

This is very definitely wrong. DK gets ***** by Ice Climbers, like -3. Mario loses -2 at absolute worst.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257235

i would use that one over the one he links to in that thread as being "more recent" or w/e. The numbers are basically the same, but in the newer version he has it split between stages, and actually i think all the numbers are the same for every stage even though we spent weeks discussing the values that should be different.

 

[going2killu]

This is very definitely wrong. DK gets ***** by Ice Climbers, like -3. Mario loses -2 at absolute worst.

How can it be wrong when I am reading the numbers straight off the chart? lol it's not like I was sharing my opinion on that matchup, only giving a reason for DK's shift over mario, considering the chart I was using.

Thanks sveet. Will get this posted soon.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Whoops, I forgot about this stuff. I'll send you the PM you requested later tonight.

edit: I'm going to delay until tomorrow since I'm tired as hell. I need to stop putting this off since it's not even a hard proof. -_- Tomorrow morning it is!

 

[Strong Badam]

This is very definitely wrong. DK gets ***** by Ice Climbers, like -3. Mario loses -2 at absolute worst.

I'm sure you have insurmountable experience against excellent DK players with your high-level Ice Climbers, correct?
Regardless, the list was made from a match-up chart he didn't participate in. such a list will always be flawed because of the original match-up chart having possible inaccuracies.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Do you disagree? Lol

Fly Amanita agrees with me that DK gets ***** by ICs, by the way, that was mainly why I made that post, his opinion. Is he enough of a "high-level ICs" player for you?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I think it's an easy match-up, but I've never seriously contemplated the match-up ratio since I have no interest in doing so.

 

[Strong Badam]

no jeremy is the worst IC's player I've ever played
80-20 DK

(it's ~65-35 IC's IMO)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're kidding yourself.

 

[going2killu]

Fly, did you find the proof? O.o

 

[choknater]

i feel like i'm reaching a level that i can beat anyone as long as i'm confident

just a FEWWW matchup kinks i need to work on but other than that i think i will start doing much better in tournaments!!

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

are you still playing ICs or did you completely switch to Ylink?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hopefully the latter, I love watching Project $tyles!

 

[choknater]

haha ic's is still my main. i really do enjoy ylink though. here is the best set of me so far (even though i lose)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gi6DZh5IEE

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Fly, did you find the proof? O.o

No, so I'm trying to reproduce it. There's one part where I currently can't decide if I just want to make an assumption that isn't a big deal or if I want to just try to work without said assumption regardless of how messy it might make things. I'm leaning towards the latter.

 

[choknater]

that's a true mathematician right there

 

[Varist]

choknater armada's #1 anti-hbox backup squad. you're ****ing good.

 

[ShaqqyDiesel]

I'm sure this question popped up multiple times on this list, but I don't see why Fox is better than Falco. I main Falco and I get alot more use out of him than Fox. I may be missing some key aspects of Fox that may make him better but it just doesn't seem like it to me

.....lasers

 

[choknater]

haha, it's really hard to judge that. i just say they're the two best

however fox can do this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omi9MyweC_I&feature=related

 

[lordvaati]

I'm sure this question popped up multiple times on this list, but I don't see why Fox is better than Falco. I main Falco and I get alot more use out of him than Fox. I may be missing some key aspects of Fox that may make him better but it just doesn't seem like it to me

.....lasers

less exploitable recovery, think.

Fox vs. Puff: **** that U Smash

Falco vs Puff: pray that baloon never sends you off the stage.

also he's the most vulnerable to SAS too.

 

[SamusPoop]

Fox is just more flexible when it comes down to it, he just has more well rounded match-ups like vs floaties where falco can't keep up with fox's damage output on them. Fox also can get the kills in quickier which tends to give them less time to play the caught up game.

However I can understand why anyone would say one is better than the other it's totally understandable in most cases.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fox is just more flexible overall.

I would've put Falco higher simply due to human consistency, until I saw Mango wrecking face at Genesis =D

 

[Strong Badam]

i think their flexibility levels are fairly comparable. their downsmash animations are quite similar, for example.

 

[john!]

have you seen their up tilts? they have rubber skeletons

yeah i think mango proved at genesis that fox is better than falco. it's just that nobody else can play him at mango's level.

 

[Strong Badam]

i think that mango proved at genesis that mango is better than everyone, not really anything specific about Fox other than what we already knew; that he's top tier.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The problem with Fox in recent years is that playing him every round in a tournament requires too much consistency, which is the only reason I was putting him below Falco.

Then Mango showed that at the peak of the current metagame (Mango's level), it is possible to be consistent with Fox throughout a whole tournament.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its really not that hard to play fox for a whole tournament. Hes really not that technically demanding, its mostly just dash dancing and then guitar hero combos

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It is technically demanding when you are playing at a level where messing one slight thing up leads to death.

 

[john!]

vs. falco you might be right. but it depends on what you mean by "slight thing". mango made a few slight mistakes at genesis that weren't punished simple because he was playing vs. slow characters like jigglypuff, peach, and marth. if either of those three made a slight mistake, fox would be there to instantly capitalize on it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think fox actually gets away with more stuff than most floaties. He has air stalls, natural resistance to horizontal combos and a long distance no lag multidirectional recovery move. On top of that he has really good rolls and dodges and one of the fastest run speeds in the game. Oh yeah a large 1 frame move that allows him to jump after 4 frames

most floaties have to maintain proper positioning at all times and are royally ****ed if they get stuck above some characters

 

[The Star King]

It is technically demanding when you are playing at a level where messing one slight thing up leads to death.

This is applies heavily to Falco as well.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yet Falco requires less technical ability than Fox, Star King.

 

[Strong Badam]

vs. falco you might be right. but it depends on what you mean by "slight thing". mango made a few slight mistakes at genesis that weren't punished simple because he was playing vs. slow characters like jigglypuff, peach, and marth. if either of those three made a slight mistake, fox would be there to instantly capitalize on it.

mistakes/errors happen on a variety of levels that go unpunished in this game. the point is that top level Fox makes more mistakes or there are more opportunities for mistakes to be made with him than with Falco.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^Thiiiiiis^

 

[choknater]

i just think more people should play ice climbers

 

[john!]

mistakes/errors happen on a variety of levels that go unpunished in this game. the point is that top level Fox makes more mistakes or there are more opportunities for mistakes to be made with him than with Falco.

that was my point. what i said about jiggs/marth/peach applies to falco too, just not as much.

edit: maybe i misread your post. i'm saying fox players make more mistakes due to his high technicality, but they can also get away with more mistakes because fox has little to no punishable lag.

i just think more people should play ice climbers

this, this, this

 

[Strong Badam]

the fact that he gets away with mistakes is irrelevant. what matters is the amount of mistakes that are punished. since he makes more mistakes, there are more opportunities for him to be punished. if I make 801 mistakes and 1 is punished, it is worse than if I make 2 mistakes and neither of them are punished.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wait what? Someone define mistake please? The context its being used in right now is very.... linear.

 

[choknater]

yeah idk

i think calling a poor decision or a beaten decision a mistake is kinda iffy

however

things like suicides, missed l-cancels, shines that weren't jc'd, things like that can fairly be called mistakes. and those happen to tournament fox players for sure

 

[john!]

good question. it's hard to define what a mistake is because nobody plays this game perfectly. any non-optimal action can be technically considered a "mistake". so i'm going to decline arguing with you, strong bad, due to the fact that our topic is very nebulous. we both seem to agree that playing fox makes people make more mistakes, but fox also can make more non-punishable mistakes. so it's a waste of time trying to argue whether the ratio of punishable/unpunishable mistakes is greater than other characters, if we can't agree on what qualifies as a mistake in the first place.