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Cosmo considers Falcon and Sheik horrible **** matchups that are borderline unplayable (or unplayable) in tournament. He makes it a point to use Sheik in those MUs most of the time. I'm guessing he went Zelda vs Darkrain for funsies. He considers Fox a really freaking hard MU too (or did at one point; I'm not sure if his opinion changed).
If you ask Mow and various others, Fox is also horrible. But nobody really listens to Mow anymore. Although, honestly, they probably should (at least when it's regarding Zelda). Fox can camp Zelda in the same way he camps Link on a lot of levels (Dreamland is a big one). You really can play to not be hit in that MU on some stages.
So if a character is riddled with a bunch of MUs considered unplayable in tournament by that character's top player, can that character really be very good...?
As difficult as Cosmo says Falcon and Fox is for Zelda, HE STILLS BEATS THEM! That fact alone makes the match-up playable(and remember that the matchup is unplayable are your words, and not Cosmo's); also Cosmo committed to fighting Falcon as Zelda I think before this year even started.
As for Shiek, she is a hard counter for Zelda. Since when is having a card counter grounds for dismissing a character? It's no different from Shiek vs Pikachu(which Axe uses Falco instead), or maybe even YL vs Puff. Having a single unwinnable match up doesn't say too much, especially for mid-tiers.
Lastly I never said Zelda was a great character, I am simply saying she isn't ''garbage'' like you said she is.
Hardly. Zelda has no real counter for lasers. She sucks against properly-executed Fox pressure. She's very susceptible to waiting games as long as you understand anything about significant ranges. She's not particularly difficult to approach (although you don't really have to).
As difficult as Cosmo says Falcon and Fox is for Zelda, HE STILLS BEATS THEM! That fact alone makes the match-up playable(and remember that the matchup is unplayable are your words, and not Cosmo's); also Cosmo committed to fighting Falcon as Zelda I think before this year even started.
My Cosmo information is likely out of date then. However, I don't really consider beating mediocre Falcons a good representation of Falcon vs Zelda at top level. The only top Falcon he's played is Darkrain and Darkrain killed him.
I just don't really see what she can do against that level of mobility with the decent grab combos. Maybe I'm just missing some crucial thing about her character that completes her, but she doesn't seem to have anything that effectively counters it in any way.
Oh well.
As for Shiek, she is a hard counter for Zelda. Since when is having a card counter grounds for dismissing a character? It's no different from Shiek vs Pikachu(which Axe uses Falco instead), or maybe even YL vs Puff. Having a single unwinnable match up doesn't say too much, especially for mid-tiers.
I agree with your statement about "one bad matchup is not that bad", but I don't think Sheik is Zelda's only hard counter or even her hardest counter.
I am curious as to why beating any space animal or Falcon in the universe can be used as an argument to supplement a MU being playable for a low tier character, though.
Lastly I never said Zelda was a great character, I am simply saying she isn't ''garbage'' like you said she is.
EDIT: Put spoiler tags around my lame story as it doesn't really matter, was just trying to say I have played Zelda a lot.
Before I make a comment about zelda...
My Zelda backstory:
I used to play Zelda a lot. Back when KonkeyDong/MikeMonkey/Punch Crew Mike was "best in Canada" I used to play him a lot. I played Zelda against some Washington players in a British Columbia tournament getting really far but barely losing to SilentWolf last stock last game Bo5. At the time, Silent Wolf hailed me as the best Zelda player he has seen. Now of course we were a lot worse players back then, silent wofl got a lot better yadda yadda etc. The point being there was a good year at least where I was probably one of the best Zelda players, even if it was a long time ago. I retired my Zelda a couple months before OC2 (although, a couple players convinced me to play Zelda against them, but I didn't prepare my Zelda for that tournament so I don't really count those)
Since then i only play her every now and then, mostly in teams. (I think she is really good in teams)
ok now that that is all done, I don't think Zelda's metagame has changed much since back then anyway.
She still uses Bair/Fair and smash attacks and sometimes dash attack. I must admit Cosmo uses her grab more than I did, but it is still mostly the same.
what I came to realize is that every character with a fast run speed has the potential to destroy her. However, most of the time, especially since people hav elittle experience against Zelda, people don't respect her moves enough and run into her attacks and are not as careful as they should be, or don't know when it is safe to attack. In the long run though, eventually players figure it out and play careful, unless they are the type of player that just auto pilots when they play. For example, I think it would only take a really great player a stock or two to figure out Zelda, even having never played against her much before. It is for this reason I quit playing her a while back.
I would like to add that Zelda seems really good in teams, as she hardly ever dies and can get kills and her speed issue is less of a problem. Even though I hardly ever play her, she is still probably my best doubles character.
Just play against Zelda like you would against a Jiggs, but be more careful attacking her shield and be less scared when off stage.
Zelda sucks, Cosmo's amazing, end of lame discussion.
On to things that actually matter, why is it suddenly acceptable to put Puff at the same level as Falcon/Peach again? Do you people have no memories? Because Mango stopped playing Puff and people caught on to Hungrybox's ****ty limited play style, suddenly the character's changed? You *****es are so fickle.
Can you elaborate on that, because my personal experience makes me want to strongly disagree. I've seen Kage beat Tope in person, among other top Sheiks, and though the matchup is strongly tilted in Sheiks favor, I think it lays just outside the 7-3 range (65-35 or some ****). I'm not even convinced that Sheik beats Ganon harder than Falco.
Christ, how is Ganon where he is on the tier list lol.
Zelda sucks, Cosmo's amazing, end of lame discussion.
On to things that actually matter, why is it suddenly acceptable to put Puff at the same level as Falcon/Peach again? Do you people have no memories? Because Mango stopped playing Puff and people caught on to Hungrybox's ****ty limited play style, suddenly the character's changed? You *****es are so fickle.
It's pretty meaningful and simple the way i see it. I don't waste my time with explanations when one is not needed. What do you want me to say instead? Random bull**** I don't understand?
Kage, you gotta admit that was a pretty mean thing to say. And john, calling everyone fickle because they don't agree with the previous tier list is pretty harsh too.
The ones that are hardest to love are the ones that need it the most, right? I agree with that.
But.. I cannot help someone who doesn't help themselves either. =P I don't really care how harsh i come off, if you can't HANDLE it, then you aren't worthy.
Kage, you gotta admit that was a pretty mean thing to say. And john, calling everyone fickle because they don't agree with the previous tier list is pretty harsh too.
Kage, the reason you won't give an explanation is because you can't. You never have. You'll probably mention beating Mango's and then throw down some "warrior" horse **** insults and think your point proven.
Come on Kage, explain it to me. What puts Puff below Marth or Sheik?
@TheCrimsonBlur: Ugh. That was terrible, and funny. But my friend that is a Falcon main says that Falco/Falcon is 70:30. Unless it isn't? I dunno, I don't moonwalk, so I can't play that character.
I agree with frotaz. Jigglypuff isn't THAT good of a character, she's just got good ways of poking and prodding at you, looking for reactions that she wants, and punishing those. But she's slow (I know, I know, best air mobility in the game), has only one move that really applies any pressure... KirbyKaze explains it better, though.
Kage, the reason you won't give an explanation is because you can't. You never have. You'll probably mention beating Mango's and then throw down some "warrior" horse **** insults and think your point proven.
Come on Kage, explain it to me. What puts Puff below Marth or Sheik?
I only commented at when you said you *****es are so fickle, I don't really care about the rest. I'll give you an explanation as to why that's wrong, it's because the metagame changes and so does the character placement. New tools found = different games happen. That's all there is to it... if you can't even see that, that's why I called you a fool. It's not about being fickle, it's observations made from years of xp.
Anyways, characters placement for me is meaningless.. and I will not comment on that.
I only commented at when you said you *****es are so fickle, I don't really care about the rest. I'll give you an explanation as to why that's wrong, it's because the metagame changes and so does the character placement. New tools found = different games happen. That's all there is to it... if you can't even see that, that's why I called you a fool. It's not about being fickle, it's observations made from years of xp.
Anyways, characters placement for me is meaningless.. and I will not comment on that.
Do you even hear yourself? You just posted a paragraph of generic statements with no reasoning. At all. You could've been talking about Kirby for all that tells me. I mean, you held off on the warrior insults, so kudos I guess.
@TheCrimsonBlur: Ugh. That was terrible, and funny. But my friend that is a Falcon main says that Falco/Falcon is 70:30. Unless it isn't? I dunno, I don't moonwalk, so I can't play that character.
I agree with frotaz. Jigglypuff isn't THAT good of a character, she's just got good ways of poking and prodding at you, looking for reactions that she wants, and punishing those. But she's slow (I know, I know, best air mobility in the game), has only one move that really applies any pressure... KirbyKaze explains it better, though.
Your idea of Puff is one from watching Hungrybox. Hungrybox does not play Jigglypuff to near her full potential. He's very smart though, so he got away with it for a long time.
Got to disagree with KK too. Sure Puff seems poor on paper if you write down her flaws, but since when has Jigglypuff been about things like poor ground game. The thing that makes Puff so much better than current placements is her RIDICULOUS strengths that outweigh them. Here, you have a character with some of the, if not THE, best spacing capability, thanks to ridiculous aerials and aerial mobility.
Then you consider the fact that she skews the risk:reward ratio of Melee more than any other character. Consider the fact that she's the LEAST comboable and edgeguardable character in the game, along with her general positioning ensuring she'll be living to 100%+ every time when played correctly. Then consider, on the punishment side, she's arguably the best in the game at edgeguarding, has what's essentially a one frame OHKO, along with some pretty devastating combos that can lead into either of the aforementioned...
Got to disagree with KK too. Sure Puff seems poor on paper if you write down her flaws, but since when has Jigglypuff been about things like poor ground game. The thing that makes Puff so much better than current placements is her RIDICULOUS strengths that outweigh them. Here, you have a character with some of the, if not THE, best spacing capability, thanks to ridiculous aerials and aerial mobility.
Then you consider the fact that she skews the risk:reward ratio of Melee more than any other character. Consider the fact that she's the LEAST comboable and edgeguardable character in the game, along with her general positioning ensuring she'll be living to 100%+ every time when played correctly. Then consider, on the punishment side, she's arguably the best in the game at edgeguarding, has what's essentially a one frame OHKO, along with some pretty devastating combos that can lead into either of the aforementioned...
I think you missed the part where I addressed... all of that.
Also, Puff is going to have to use her ground game at some point if she's going to acquire any of the throw gimps (u-throw rest or otherwise) that everyone complains about. Her ground game is not as complex or versatile as Sheik's, or Fox's, or many other useable characters'. Unfortunately, we all know that playing air only is suicide (unless you're fighting Peach or something maybe). It's too easy to get under a purely aerial Puff with a fast character.
Air only Puff is also kind of bad against projectiles. She needs to use the ground to beat certain projectile patterns and setups.
I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or not with Falcon and Peach being as good as Puff but that's not true at all. I honestly think a wobbling Ice Climber is better than Captain Falcon. Peach people make the case for, and she is conveniently built to last for sure. But she can't swing momentum like Puff can. Or win out of nowhere to the same degree. Puff's superior gimping, more annoying spacing, crouch, and resistance to combos also makes it easier for her to hold a lead or expand a lead. As good as Peach's BS potential is, nothing beats a 1-frame OHKO on a character you can't combo or kill via traditional edgeguarding and gimping.
Do you even hear yourself? You just posted a paragraph of generic statements with no reasoning. At all. You could've been talking about Kirby for all that tells me. I mean, you held off on the warrior insults, so kudos I guess.
Zelda sucks, Cosmo's amazing, end of lame discussion.
On to things that actually matter, why is it suddenly acceptable to put Puff at the same level as Falcon/Peach again? Do you people have no memories? Because Mango stopped playing Puff and people caught on to Hungrybox's ****ty limited play style, suddenly the character's changed? You *****es are so fickle.
Sorry, I sort of went off on a tangent against the people who place Puff at Peach and Falcon's level. I understand you have similar opinions to me as to how good Puff is.
Also, Puff is going to have to use her ground game at some point if she's going to acquire any of the throw gimps (u-throw rest or otherwise) that everyone complains about. Her ground game is not as complex or versatile as Sheik's, or Fox's, or many other useable characters'. Unfortunately, we all know that playing air only is suicide (unless you're fighting Peach or something maybe). It's too easy to get under a purely aerial Puff with a fast character.
For the most part, I feel this only applies to spacies. Those are the matchups where Jiggs' grabs are most dangerous and necessary, and where she can really be cornered by smart pressure. I think Puff's ground game can be a huge threat to otherwise fast characters like Sheik, but only when used as a supplement to her predominant air game. I'm not suggesting something as extreme as an air only Jiggs, there is a happy medium.
Again, I think this only applies to spacies and laserzzz. Landing against any other projectiles can be useful, but it never has to be in a position where Puff then has to engage. Then again, I can't help but feel Puff can close the gap fast on even Fox and Falco. After a certain point, lasering becomes a dangerous commitment.
I think we agree on most of this. The only point I wanted to make with the initial post that was cited is that Puff on the whole is less flexible than the other top characters in that her ground game is really narrow and if you write out her flaws, she seems worse than if you write them out for someone like Falco or Sheik.
But she makes up for it in the long run by having the potential to grind the opponent's patience down and wear them away. Mental chip damage. She can make big plays off a read or a mistake. She's also got good resistance to punishment. Puff you so crazy. I also think I downplayed its usefulness a bit because crouching grabs and mixing in low aerial > crouch on shield can exert a lot of pressure on the opponent.
Maybe it's not so much her ground game that's the issue but rather that she doesn't transition between air and ground as smoothly as other characters, and doesn't move as quickly on the ground, etc.
Don't worry about a match-up you'll make it worse than it really is. Just think differently about it and think of what you can do without worry of him attacking and find a way to make your ideas work by means of baiting or what have you.
