Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[ShroudedOne]

Looool, Jiggs mains thinking their character is worse than Falcon. But I have a few questions, if you ever come back to this, hungrybox.

Why is Peach 4th? Why IS Falcon over Jiggs? I realize it's silly to ask for reasons that could very well be just personal opinion, but I'm curious.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I'm curious as to why he put Peach over Marth

 

[ShroudedOne]

That too. I think (and I think most would agree) that he does better against spacies. I dunno about Sheik, but that MU is bad for both Peach and Marth, I guess. Marth definitely beats her against Falcon, and he seems to handle low tiers better than her.

 

[john!]

peach loses to everyone else in the top seven.

she's above falcon because of armada and because falcon mains whine a lot.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'd argue that she goes even with Falco, and I guess Jigglypuff is even sometimes? I'm not sure on that. But I definitely feel like Peach goes even with Falco. But yeah, she loses all the other ones.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Even if Captain Falcon is better versus Y.Link, Jigglypuff is still the better character.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hungrybox, why do you have Peach over Marth and Falcon over Puff? I can understand why you would make those choices but I'd like to hear you explain your decisions yourself to be sure.

 

[leffen]

Pika over ganon but and Marth over Peach (too bad matchups vs Fox, Jiggs and CF) and I agree

 

[Strife]

Even if Captain Falcon is better versus Y.Link, Jigglypuff is still the better character.

LMAO.

I've never heard Hungrybox's thoughts on Puff vs YL. I'd like to know what he thinks about it.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

LMAO.

I've never heard Hungrybox's thoughts on Puff vs YL. I'd like to know what he thinks about it.

He's probably say its ********

 

[EthereaL]

Falco
Sheik
Marth
Falcon
Ice Climbers
Jigglypuff
Peach

It'll happen.

 

[Strong Badam]

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Peach
Marth
Falcon
Jiggs
ICs
Samus
Doc
Ganon



sup

where's DK?

 

[EthereaL]

where's DK?

Slightly above Fox.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Falco
Sheik
Marth
Falcon
Ice Climbers
Jigglypuff
Peach

It'll happen.

do all fox mains die making the character fall into some sort of depression where nobody can play it at high level and he eventually becomes midtier???

 

[choknater]

no, it just looks like fox has ascended...

into a new realm... one that is so...

ethereal

 

[Strong Badam]

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
[/miami]

 

[EthereaL]

do all fox mains die making the character fall into some sort of depression where nobody can play it at high level and he eventually becomes midtier???

Haha Fox isn't listed 'cause he's obviously first.

My list will happen.

Yup.

 

[Strife]

Haha Fox isn't listed 'cause he's obviously first.

My list will happen.

Yup.

With years of underachievement from that character I don't understand the philosophy that he's obviously/always first.

Fox's placing on tier lists always seem to be based on theory and not practice.

 

[Divinokage]

Underachievement? Fox has won plenty of tournaments, don't know what you are talking about..

 

[EthereaL]

With years of underachievement from that character I don't understand the philosophy that he's obviously/always first.

Fox's placing on tier lists always seem to be based on theory and not practice.

Disregarding how well Fox has done in tournaments...

Poor/phenomenal character showings should not effect a character's tier placement. Armada outplaying Marth mains with Peach does not mean Peach should be higher tier than Marth.

Moving on from that, we should all talk about how Ice Climbers should be higher and how Puff should be lower.

 

[Strife]

Underachievement? Fox has won plenty of tournaments, don't know what you are talking about..

Hardly anything at all at national level, in fact he has very few top 3 placings at national level(I think only Jman has placed that well in recent times). I get that he is obviously top tier, but saying he's obviously the best seems like a gross exaggeration.

Poor/phenomenal character showings should not effect a character's tier placement. Armada outplaying Marth mains with Peach does not mean Peach should be higher tier than Marth.

Actually poor/phenomenal character showings count for a whole lot. The reason why your Armada analogy makes sense is because Armada is a single person. If 10 other peach mains were doing what Armada was doing then it'd mean that a large part of the victories should be attributed to the character instead of just the player, hence Peach would move up the tier list.

On the other hand it's all fox player who have been under achieving for a very long time.

 

[ShroudedOne]

That's the first time I've seen someone question Fox's placing, and I'd be up for hearing a good argument as to why he shouldn't be first.

I think the reasons why he's so high up are fairly obvious. He has amazing speed, large profit from grabs, solid OoS/defensive options, a fairly decent recovery (especially when compared to his counterpart Falco), excellent gimping abilities (shine), amazing kill potential (usmash, uair, shine are the big ones), combos on every character in the top seven (I guess maybe not Jiggs, if uthrow > uair doesn't count). I think that Fox has the most potential out the cast to make the most out of any situation, due to (again) his great OoS options, and his excellent mobility. This lets him swiftly escape pressure, and handle being in a corner very well.

No one questions his versatility. I mean, we've seen over the span of the game that Fox has so much potential, so much variance with his moves. You'd be hard pressed to find a bad move among them (fair, I guess, would be the one). He can do a LOT off things out of his grab, the most notable being his uthrow > uair. With the strength of his moves complimented by his speed and rather good (albeit not controlling) projectile, he can switch between rush down and super camp really well, and really easily. There aren't many characters that can successfully change up their game this much.

His recovery. I've heard people say that it's bad, and it is in the sense that it has patterns that are relatively easy to figure out, but it still gives him a range of options for recovering. The length of his up B lets him ride walls much more effectively than Falco, and the length gives him more room overall to change up his angles and still be safe. It is not a one dimensional recovery like Sheik's or Marth's (or Falcon's). Illusion shortening is pretty good, too. How many characters can change the distance of their recovery within a few frames? Sure, Peach's and Jigglypuff's recoveries are excellent, but they don't have the advantage of recovering to the stage quickly, and their recoveries are pretty simple to figure out (Peach's more than Jigglypuff's, though). Fox can always keep his opponents guessing.

As far as combos and kill potential...shine. That's literally all I need to say. Shine spikes are a deadly threat for any character (except Jigglypuff, and to a lesser extent Peach), and leads into big moves on most of the top seven. He has other moves for combos and kills (utilt, usmash, uair, bair, nair, dair, etc.), but this is the most important.

That's how I see it, anyways. Sure, he gets comboed HARD, and edge guarded fairly well (that doesn't change the fact that his recovery is really versatile), but I don't think any character has the range of options Fox has. So...yeah, I guess it's theory, but so far, no other character has shown to be better.

Sorry, didn't mean for this to be so long.

 

[EthereaL]

Actually poor/phenomenal character showings count for a whole lot.

My analogy was bad, given more thought.

Let me use a different example. If every current player who played Falco suddenly stopped and started playing Pichu, then the tier placement of Falco wouldn't change simply because the only ones playing were beginners.

Moving on from why Fox is the best, let's discuss Hbox's/my tier listings.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

i agree that puff is likely too high in the current tier. ic's do have alot of potential and i am surprised they aren't more popular.

 

[john!]

the popularity of a given character is largely related to two factors: how good that character is in tournament, and how easy it is to improve with that character. fox and falco are the most common characters because they are easy to improve with and are the best characters in the game. ic's are semi-viable and difficult to improve with, so that's why they aren't popular.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox has had the highest representation in terms of actual usage in bracket. That's got to mean something.

 

[choknater]

ic's have 3 problem matchups:
peach - just bad
fox - slight disadvantage but just soooo gay that it's frustrating
falcon - 50/50 but the punishment is so hard on both sides that it's frustrating

also there are even matchups like ganon, samus, luigi, but they are really really hard to figure out for beginner ic's. at lower/mid levels, the other character wins.

 

[Max?]

Doc does pretty good vs. them climbers too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtZbfBe33B4

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hardly anything at all at national level, in fact he has very few top 3 placings at national level(I think only Jman has placed that well in recent times). I get that he is obviously top tier, but saying he's obviously the best seems like a gross exaggeration.

How many people have won true national/international tournaments in the last 3 years? Mango, Hungrybox, Armada, Dr. PP. Four. I don't think its the characters that won the tournament, but the players.

In terms of tournaments of slightly less size (regional/multiregional) fox wins more than any other character.

Fox has had the highest representation in terms of actual usage in bracket. That's got to mean something.

^ Pretty much this.

 

[Strife]

My analogy was bad, given more thought.

Let me use a different example. If every current player who played Falco suddenly stopped and started playing Pichu, then the tier placement of Falco wouldn't change simply because the only ones playing were beginners.

This analogy is also bad.

What you're saying would only apply if Fox was an unpopular character, to the contrary he is the most played character in tournament and yet he never has top placings at the highest level. What you say actually supports my argument that he's likely not the best in the game.

Fox has had the highest representation in terms of actual usage in bracket. That's got to mean something.

Actually it doesn't mean anything, it simply means he's played a lot. Despite his widespread usage, historically his placings have always fell short of the other top tier characters.

It just seems silly for us to assume he's the best when his placings have always indicated otherwise.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Can we focus on Fox's actual character ATTRIBUTES compared to other characters, as far as the reasoning behind why he's a top tier character? Placings obviously mean something, but they shouldn't take precedence over how good a character actually is.

 

[Winston]

Ok then.

Fox has less range than all the other good characters. Everyone can grab and **** him.

</Mew2King>

 

[EthereaL]

ic's have 3 problem matchups:
peach - just bad
fox - slight disadvantage but just soooo gay that it's frustrating
falcon - 50/50 but the punishment is so hard on both sides that it's frustrating.

The Peach matchup is really IC's only truly poor one, and even then there are options. Although I agree Fox is frustrating.

Back to my fox example...no, it's not a bad analogy. Your argument is flawed. :-/

 

[FrootLoop]

fox's jump height is so perfect for platforms it's scary, and for all practical purposes he's the fastest character in the game. He doesn't really have a hard time killing with bair/uair/usmash. His grab game flows really well into combos and kill moves, and his shine gives him lots of freedom with shield pressure/oos game/combo escapes. It also sets up into kill moves either directly or gives him a knockdown if they fall from the shine. He also has enough recovery mixups and length that it's hard to guarantee a gimp/edgeguard on him. He doesn't have excessive range on his moves but his speed helps him out a lot to control space and pressure the opponent regardless.

 

[Divinokage]

The Peach matchup is really IC's only truly poor one, and even then there are options. Although I agree Fox is frustrating.

Back to my fox example...no, it's not a bad analogy. Your argument is flawed. :-/

Hello.. Ganon EXISTS in this game.. yes he's as bad as Peach for ICs for sure.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Fox has had the highest representation in terms of actual usage in bracket. That's got to mean something.

Eh, I don't think that means much actually. Fox has been the most popular character in the last 5 or 6 years, so of course he'd have the largest representation in bracket. I firmly believe that the other high tiers would have just as many people in bracket if they had the enormous playerbase that Fox enjoys. Fox's inability to crack top 8 at nationals most of the time is a strong case against him being number one if we were to rank the best "tournament" characters. We have far too much data to ignore the fact that the most popular character in the game can't seem to win at the highest level.

Now, the argument can be made that many players chose Fox because hes just that good, and that may be true, but when I talk to Fox players I don't get the impression that his "brokenness" was a major factor in their choice. This isn't a Phoenix or Yun situation where players pick the best character because its the quickest way to win. I think a lot of people came into Melee wanting to be as technical as the people they admire, so they picked Fox because hes the most technically demanding character in the game. I'm sure many people picked him because of his position on the tier lists (I remember there were many more Sheiks when she was on top), but I think the major driving factor behind his popularity is how fun he is to play.

At the same time, when I play Fox, I feel like he is the best character. I think this feeling, much more than tournament results, is why Fox is often picked as the best in the game...

But don't fret Fox mains. The way the rulesets are going, a Fox will win soon enough.

 

[KirbyKaze]

"Fox's inability to crack top 8"

Wait, what major tournament has he not done this at? I'm fairly sure there's been a Fox in top 8 in the vast majority of major tournaments in the previous few years. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong but that strikes me as a really strange thing to say.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

"Fox's inability to crack top 8"

Wait, what major tournament has he not done this at? I'm fairly sure there's been a Fox in top 8 in the vast majority of major tournaments in the previous few years. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong but that strikes me as a really strange thing to say.

Pound IV:
1. Mango (Jiggs/Falco)
2. Hungrybox (Jiggs)
3. Amsah (Shiek)
4. Armada (Peach)
5. M2K (Marth/Shiek)
5. Jman (Fox)
7. Lucky (Fox)
7. Zhu (Falco)

Pound V:

1: Dr. PP (Falco)
2: Armada (Peach)
3: HBox (Puff)
4: Axe (Pikachu)
5: Mew2king (Marth/Sheik)
5: Hax (Falcon)
7: Cactaur (Fox)
7: Vanz (Peach/Sheik)

APEX:

1: hungrybox (Puff)
2: Armada (Peach)
3: mew2king (Sheik/Fox)
4: Dr. Peepee (Falco)
5: Axe (Pikachu)
6: Wobbles (ICs)
7: Jman (Fox)
7: Zhu (Falco)

RoM3

1: Dr. PeePee (Falco)
2: m2k (Sheik/Marth/Fox)
3: kirbykaze (Sheik)
4: jesus (Fox)
5: hbox (Puff)
5: lucky (Fox)
7: darc (Puff)
7: Vanz (Peach/Sheik)

Genesis 1

1. Mango - Jigglypuff/Falco
2. Armada - Peach
3. Hungrybox - Puff
4. Zhu - Falco/Fox
5. Mew2King - Marth/Sheik
6. Scar - Falcon
7. Darkrain - Falcon
8. Hax - Falcon

Genesis 2

1. Armada (Peach)
2. Mang0 (Falco/Fox)
3. Taj (Marth/Mewtwo)
4. hungrybox (Puff)
5. M2K (Sheik/Marth)
5. Shroomed (Doc)
7. S2J (Falcon)
7. Dr Peepee (Falco)

Yeah, it seems that was quite an exaggeration. But I think its fair to say Fox performs worse than the 5 below him (Puff, Sheik, Falco, Marth, Peach) and about as well as Falcon.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I noticed you didn't count M2K for Fox in like any of his sets despite him using Fox against Armada, Hungrybox, Wobbles, etc. at a lot of these tournaments.

I don't think Fox is being outperformed by Peach. He's being outperformed by Armada.

edit:

Similar arguments to Marth, Sheik, Puff, etc. A lot of these players are outlier players, IMO. Unless a single representative is really grounds for altering the character placements of the top tiers...



.

 

[EthereaL]

Hello.. Ganon EXISTS in this game.. yes he's as bad as Peach for ICs for sure.

Ah, I hadn't considered him...I wish I could say something, but I don't talk about match-ups I know next to nothing about, haha. How do you deal with ICs (as Ganon)?

Oh, and yes, I am intentionally ignoring the "why fox is the best" discussion.