Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

Good for you.

Ganon ICs isn't that bad IMO.

 

[choknater]

for ic's vs ganon, i think fly has the patience to play it properly and he usually does. i'd say it's slight ganon maybe like 55-45 but not terrible. ic's just have to be patient and approach him at the right times since obv they cant camp forever

 

[Strife]

How many people have won true national/international tournaments in the last 3 years? Mango, Hungrybox, Armada, Dr. PP. Four. I don't think its the characters that won the tournament, but the players.

In terms of tournaments of slightly less size (regional/multiregional) fox wins more than any other character.

I didn't say win at nationals, I said top 3(IE: they don't break into WFs, LFs or GFs) moreover I wasn't thinking within the past 3 years, Fox hasn't been placing in finals at national tournaments since dating back to 2007. In the 15 or so national tournaments since then for you to say that foxes not making top 3 is entirely the fault of the players and not perhaps because of an overrated character is a bit naive.

As for regional tourneys I recognize that fox performs very well at mid-level, I'm saying at the top level he is less dominant than the other top tier characters. Moreover if you remove the midwest as the weakest region and Kels out of the equation even then Fox's performance at regional tourneys is nothing impressive.

Can we focus on Fox's actual character ATTRIBUTES compared to other characters, as far as the reasoning behind why he's a top tier character? Placings obviously mean something, but they shouldn't take precedence over how good a character actually is.

I think people emphasize his strengths too much and don't recognize the weakness in Fox's game. I won't touch on everything as in theory Fox looks amazing, which is my entire problem with his placing in the tier list. IT IS ALL THEORY! For the past 5 years almost none of it has translated into practice, at nationals Fox has always been the least dominant top tier character.

As for example of how he's overrated, look at this AMAZING uthrow to uair. This doesn't work on most characters at ko percent if they DI the uthrow right, moreover even if they fail to DI the Uthrow they have a second chance to DI the first hit of the uair to escape the combo. Fox's opponent essentially has to fail to DI correctly twice, for this to work and that's not something that should be happening at top level very often.

Another example is his overrated laser spam, while it is a good way to rack up damage, it leaves Fox's back to the edge of the stage. People keep claiming this isn't a big deal because fox can just approach his opponent whenever they are in attacking range, but we see how this fails whenever players commit to this strategy, {see Linguini vs Kels, or Axe vs Jman)

I'm not saying that these techniques Fox have are ineffective, I'm saying that they're overrated. Fox has a lot of strong points but his weak points are overlooked or dismissed as not being significant because of how great his good points are(which as I'm trying to illustrate are overrated.

And I suppose the main thing I have against Fox is the fact that he is the only top tier character in the game who gets combo'd harder than he is able to combo. The reason why they are so many vids of lower tier mains beating FOX's is because of how disgustingly combo-able he is.

he's extremely gimpable once caught below the stage, 6th lightest character in the game, moves don't have much range, his damaging combos are more technically demanding than any other character in the game.

Fox is top tier and may very well be the best character in the game, I just think it's ******** to assume it's true. Whenever low tier perform well we say it's the player and not the character, and when Fox under performs we switch the argument and say that the players are performing badly and Fox is still amazing. It's seems like a circular argument.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

In terms of tournaments of slightly less size (regional/multiregional) fox wins more than any other character.

I found this comment curious. A lot of people seem to believe this, but I'm not sure if its true. So lets break it down by the major regions:

EC Canada - Diakonos (Marth)
WC Canada - Unknown (Fox) seems to win the most
Tristate - Jman (Fox) or Hax (Falcon) have won the majority. M2K (Sheik/Marth) when he goes.
MD/VA - Chu (ICs) dominated for a really long time, now Chillin (Fox) is winning
Southeast - Dr. PP (Falco/Marth)
Florida - Hungrybox (Puff)
Midwest (Chicago) - Kels (Fox) and, more recently, Dart (Marth)
Michigan - Shady (Marth)
New England - Th0rn (Falco) or KDJ (Marth/Fox recently)
SoCal - Mango (whatever) or S2J (Falcon) when Mango doesn't show up (most of the time)
Norcal - Shroomed (Doc)
Arizona - Axe (Pika) and Wobbles (ICs)
Sweden - Armada (Peach)
Spain - Dahean (Marth) and Overtriforce (Sheik)
Britain - Fuzzyness (Falcon/Fox)
Japan - Kou (Falco) and Machdash (Falcon)...correct me if I'm wrong
Italy - Aldwyn (Falco)
Germany - Ice (Marth/Sheik/Fox)

I didn't include regions like Mexico, Chile, France, etc. because I don't know their results that well.

Based on this list, I don't think its fair to say Fox generally dominates regionals...I know you did a points system a while ago which tried to show this, but tbh, I didn't like the system that you used..

Either way, if we were to list each region's most winningest players like I did above, I don't think Fox is all that dominant...

I noticed you didn't count M2K for Fox in like any of his sets despite him using Fox against Armada, Hungrybox, Wobbles, etc. at a lot of these tournaments.

I just copied the characters from the results page for the most part. I can include M2K Fox if you want.

I don't think Fox is being outperformed by Peach. He's being outperformed by Armada.

Similar arguments to Marth, Sheik, Puff, etc. A lot of these players are outlier players, IMO. Unless a single representative is really grounds for altering the character placements of the top tiers...

I'm not arguing to change tier lists because of tournament results. Thats a whole nother discussion. I'm just showing how lackluster Fox tournament results have been...especially for the proclaimed best character in the game.

If we were to make a "tournament performance" tier list, and remove all other factors, Fox would definitely not be number 1...He'd be tied for 6th with Falcon.

 

[Strife]

Pound IV:
1. Mango (Jiggs/Falco)
2. Hungrybox (Jiggs)
3. Amsah (Shiek)
4. Armada (Peach)
5. M2K (Marth/Shiek)
5. Jman (Fox)
7. Lucky (Fox)
7. Zhu (Falco)

Pound V:

1: Dr. PP (Falco)
2: Armada (Peach)
3: HBox (Puff)
4: Axe (Pikachu)
5: Mew2king (Marth/Sheik)
5: Hax (Falcon)
7: Cactaur (Fox)
7: Vanz (Peach/Sheik)

APEX:

1: hungrybox (Puff)
2: Armada (Peach)
3: mew2king (Sheik)
4: Dr. Peepee (Falco)
5: Axe (Pikachu)
6: Wobbles (ICs)
7: Jman (Fox)
7: Zhu (Falco)

RoM3

1: Dr. PeePee (Falco)
2: m2k (Sheik/Marth)
3: kirbykaze (Sheik)
4: jesus (Fox)
5: hbox (Puff)
5: lucky (Fox)
7: darc (Puff)
7: Vanz (Peach/Sheik)

Genesis 1

1. Mango - Jigglypuff/Falco
2. Armada - Peach
3. Hungrybox - Puff
4. Zhu - Falco/Fox
5. Mew2King - Marth/Sheik
6. Scar - Falcon
7. Darkrain - Falcon
8. Hax - Falcon

Genesis 2

1. Armada (Peach)
2. Mang0 (Falco/Fox)
3. Taj (Marth/Mewtwo)
4. hungrybox (Puff)
5. M2K (Sheik/Marth)
5. Shroomed (Doc)
7. S2J (Falcon)
7. Dr Peepee (Falco)

Yeah, it seems that was quite an exaggeration. But I think its fair to say Fox performs worse than the 5 below him (Puff, Sheik, Falco, Marth, Peach) and about as well as Falcon.

Going back even further for just top 3.


Pound 2
ChuDat (ICs)
Marth (Marth)
Jianao (Falcon)

FC Diamond
M2k(Marth)
PC Chris(Falco)
Chut Dat (ICs)

Oc3
PC Chris (Falco)
Mew2king (Marth)
Chu Dat (ICs)

Evo 2007
M2k (Marth)
Hugs (Samus)
Mango (Puff)

SCC
M2k (Marth)
PC Chris (Various)
Magno (Puff)

VLS
Azen (Marth/Falcon)
Chu Dat (ICs)
Korean DJ (Shiek)

P3
Mango (Puff)
M2k (Marth/Fox)
PC Chris(Falco/Fox)

Rom1
Mango (Puff)
Mew2king (Marth)
Dashizwiz(Falco)


I mentioned who the player mained and not they seconed. If they mained more than once character than I listed both. No one can crack top 3 while maining Fox. If he ever cracks top 3 then he is mained with along with another character.

 

[Niko45]

Peaches beat Marths a ton and its not just Armada.

Wow fox has absolutely awful placings compared to where people think he is in theory.

 

[EthereaL]

Good for you.

Ganon ICs isn't that bad IMO.

Ah, I thought you were implying that it was.

 

[choknater]

fox is amazing

 

[KirbyKaze]

I thought about seriously addressing Strife's tournament stuff but, like, his stuff is so wrong...

edit:

I'm gonna do it anyway, actually. I've got time before class.

Pound 2
ChuDat (ICs)
Mew2King (Marth/Fox)
Jianao (Falcon)

FC Diamond
M2k(Marth)
PC Chris(Falco/Fox)
Chut Dat (ICs)

Oc3
PC Chris (Falco/Fox)
Mew2king (Marth)
Chu Dat (ICs)

Evo 2007
Ken (Marth)
Hugs (Samus)
Mango (Puff)

SCC
M2k (Marth/Fox)
PC Chris (Fox/Peach)
Magno (Puff)

VLS
Azen (Marth/Falcon)
Chu Dat (ICs)
Korean DJ (Shiek/Fox)

P3
Mango (Puff)
M2k (Marth/Fox)
PC Chris(Falco/Fox)

Rom1
Mango (Puff)
Mew2king (Marth)
Dashizwiz(Falco)

 

[Strife]

I thought about seriously addressing Strife's tournament stuff but, like, his stuff is so wrong...

edit:

I'm gonna do it anyway, actually. I've got time before class.

Pound 2
ChuDat (ICs)
Mew2King (Marth/Fox)
Jianao (Falcon)

FC Diamond
M2k(Marth)
PC Chris(Falco/Fox)
Chut Dat (ICs)

Oc3
PC Chris (Falco/Fox)
Mew2king (Marth)
Chu Dat (ICs)

Evo 2007
Ken (Marth)
Hugs (Samus)
Mango (Puff)

SCC
M2k (Marth/Fox)
PC Chris (Fox/Peach)
Magno (Puff)

VLS
Azen (Marth/Falcon)
Chu Dat (ICs)
Korean DJ (Shiek/Fox)

P3
Mango (Puff)
M2k (Marth/Fox)
PC Chris(Falco/Fox)

Rom1
Mango (Puff)
Mew2king (Marth)
Dashizwiz(Falco)

I wanna make it clear that KK's post is actually wrong, the only typo I made was replacing Ken's name with M2k's for Evo 2007(I was in a rush )

Anyways

This is wrong.
VLS
Azen (Marth/Falcon)
Chu Dat (ICs)
Korean DJ (Shiek/Fox)

While KDJ does play fox he only used fox for a single set that tourney, against Azen which he lost.


Again this is wrong, the only set M2k used fox in was in the finals against Mango. If you're going to draw at straws and say that if they use Fox in a single set then it should count as maining then that's just ********, a lot of people will counter pick fox on PS, in just a single set for the whole tournament. That isn't maining the character at all. It's like saying Armada mained Young Link as well as Peach at Genesis2 and Pound 5.
And PC Chris used Falco, Fox and Peach. He didn't really main any character at that tourney.

SCC
M2k (Marth/Fox)
PC Chris (Fox/Peach)
Magno (Puff)

I'd continue but I see you're just putting Fox on the list for any player who used to play Fox regardless of if they actually mained him at that tourney or not. Again that's ********. If they didn't main Fox in that tourney then it obviously isn't evidence of Fox being any less dominant than some of us are saying he has been.

 

[choknater]

lol

"maining" a character is an arbitrary concept. yes, i would consider things like taj's mewtwo and armada's ylink perfectly legitimate for listing character usage.

shoutouts to europeans for playing whatever character they want in late bracket.

 

[Winston]

Why are we even talking about 2007 stuff?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Why are we even talking about 2007 stuff?

We're just trying to help spread the legend of Chut Dat and Jianao to the youngins, Winston.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Why are we even talking about 2007 stuff?

my thoughts exactly

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Strife i would really like to see your sources for this information. 2011 join date, and i seem to recall KDJ maining fox/marth/sheik during all of 2007 as well as PC playing fox almost exclusively in 2007. M2K also play fox against peach, puff, ICs and sheik sometimes.


btw guys its JIANO not jianao
http://www.youtube.com/user/SunJiano

 

[choknater]

jianao sounds better

what a great falcon

jiano vs chudat classic set

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wanna make it clear that KK's post is actually wrong, the only typo I made was replacing Ken's name with M2k's for Evo 2007(I was in a rush )

Anyways

This is wrong.
VLS
Azen (Marth/Falcon)
Chu Dat (ICs)
Korean DJ (Shiek/Fox)

He used Fox against M2K as well at VLS. They did Sheik dittos and KDJ's Fox vs M2K's Sheik. I don't really feel like going through every single tournament set, but I also know he played Fox in crews.

I also kind of find it funny that you're accusing me of taking someone's secondary/co-main that they play throughout several high profile sets, crews, etc. and noting it as a character they played, but then you'll cite Azen as a Falcon player just because he went Falcon against Chu (and only Chu). I would not at all be surprised if he used Sheik, Fox, or Peach more than he used Falcon during that tournament (while obviously using Marth the most).

While KDJ does play fox he only used fox for a single set that tourney, against Azen which he lost.

He used Fox vs M2K as well. KDJ, to my understanding, used Fox against a lot of people. At Cataclysm III a lot of his matches with M2K in GFs were Fox dittos.

Again this is wrong, the only set M2k used fox in was in the finals against Mango. If you're going to draw at straws and say that if they use Fox in a single set then it should count as maining then that's just ********, a lot of people will counter pick fox on PS, in just a single set for the whole tournament. That isn't maining the character at all. It's like saying Armada mained Young Link as well as Peach at Genesis2 and Pound 5.

M2K went Fox vs PC Chris in WFs for a few games, went Fox vs Silent Wolf in one of their games, used Fox against Mango like you said, etc.

And PC Chris used Falco, Fox and Peach. He didn't really main any character at that tourney.

He went Fox for the vast majority.

SCC
M2k (Marth/Fox)
PC Chris (Fox/Peach)
Magno (Puff)

I'd continue but I see you're just putting Fox on the list for any player who used to play Fox regardless of if they actually mained him at that tourney or not. Again that's ********. If they didn't main Fox in that tourney then it obviously isn't evidence of Fox being any less dominant than some of us are saying he has been.

PC Chris did main Fox at that time. And M2K used Fox throughout WFs and GFs so I'm not sure how that doesn't count.

>_>

 

[ShroudedOne]

Perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't see why tourney placings take such priority among everything else in considering why a character is the best character. Just because Fox isn't winning nationals doesn't mean that he doesn't have the potential to, by any means. Or am I missing something?

 

[choknater]

i agree with the one who is shrouded.

even if that sort of argument is just speculative, i generally find it to prove itself

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't see why tourney placings take such priority among everything else in considering why a character is the best character. Just because Fox isn't winning nationals doesn't mean that he doesn't have the potential to, by any means. Or am I missing something?

We aren't discussing who the best character is right now.

We are discussing which characters have historically performed the best at tournaments.

 

[choknater]

ah, okay. good, that has nothing to do with who is the best character

 

[ShroudedOne]

Whoops. My mistake then. But the conversation had gotten here, from that.

 

[Crooked Crow]

The metagame has changed- different characters perform better now than they did before. This is also a double-edged sword, characters like Marth don't dominate anymore.

What about Falco? Is it reasonable to consider him the most consistent character lately?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only reason Fox doesn't win tournies is because of consistency issues, Falco is better in that regard.

 

[choknater]

i would say so. falco is just an amazing character and i can't find out his weaknesses ughhhh. i'm usually pretty good at doing that with characters but man falco is so good.

 

[KirbyKaze]

We aren't discussing who the best character is right now.

We are discussing which characters have historically performed the best at tournaments.

Pre-2008 > Marth
2009 > Mango
2010 > Mango at the beginning for a bit, then Jigglypuff/Hungrybox later on
2011 > Falco, Jigglypuff, Peach

 

[Olikus]

how can people considering putting fox anywere else than 1st place after watching mango @ Genesis 2!!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

If we're gonna argue Fox is worse than <characters> then your argument is basically:

1) his moves lose vs other moves
2) susceptible to SDI and CC defenses in ways that many characters are not
3) gets combo'd to death
4) gets gimped
5) difficult to play consistently well for a whole tournament
6) his combos aren't as good as the other top characters

Most of that is situational or mitigated through being good but those are some reasonable places to start looking for stuff to construct an argument.


.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

kk why do you often have a period at the bottom of your posts?

 

[Strife]

how can people considering putting fox anywere else than 1st place after watching mango @ Genesis 2!!!

It really isn't so hard after watching that same fox get beaten by Peach.

Pre-2008 > Marth
2009 > Mango
2010 > Mango at the beginning for a bit, then Jigglypuff/Hungrybox later on
2011 > Falco, Jigglypuff, Peach

And why is it that Fox has never been first? I can't think of a single other fighting game(both other Smash games included) where the ''best'' character wasn't taking a lot of the top placings.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox is not taking a lot of the top placings? Thats totally false.

Go look at other fighting games and see how often the best player in the world plays the best character. Daigo used to win just about anything and i dont think ryu/ken was ever considered #1 in the game. Ken won everything for YEARS and nobody thought marth was #1 just because of that.

tl;dr pure results shows more about the players than the characters

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox wasn't ranked as the best character until the 2007 list or so. I already addressed why, based off tournament results, it's not unheard of to have him in 1st for the 2007 list. Every top level player sans ChuDat using Fox as a secondary or co-main is a very telling thing. That he also took most of the top spots at tournaments in addition to consistent representation in the top 8 spots is good.

I will also add that the list following the 2007 one had Marth and Fox rated at near equal to respond to M2K's Marth's dominance during that year. Fox won by like 0.000001 or something during voting.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think something really needs to be taken into account in our metagame: our player pool is decreasing or at best remaining constant. This means that the top level is not fully saturated and many characters don't have many talented players playing them. Also, because melee has such a low cash incentive for winning, players are less inclined to use the best character possible to win, but rather choose for other rewards such as renown or self gratification.

Most top level players agree that fox is the best in the game, just through experience. Even so, not many of them really care to play him because of the reasons mentioned above.

 

[Strong Badam]

Fox has had the highest representation in terms of actual usage in bracket. That's got to mean something.

that he's popular and many good players use him

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Ken won everything for YEARS and nobody thought marth was #1 just because of that.

Yes, they did.

Marth was #1 or 2 in just about every list up until 2008 or so.

 

[Strife]

Yes, they did.

Marth was #1 or 2 in just about every list up until 2008 or so.

This.

Also it annoys me that people are saying the issue has always been with the players and not fox as a character. Are you saying that it's just by chance no amazing Fox players exist.

Also it just struck me that PC Chris was most successful after he switched from Fox to Falco, KDJ was most successful after he switched from fox to Shiek, and M2k was most successful after he switched from fox to Marth. Honestly fox just isn't as impressive as people make him out to be.

Fox is not taking a lot of the top placings? Thats totally false.

Go look at other fighting games and see how often the best player in the world plays the best character. Daigo used to win just about anything and i dont think ryu/ken was ever considered #1 in the game. Ken won everything for YEARS and nobody thought marth was #1 just because of that.

tl;dr pure results shows more about the players than the characters

Using SF4 as an example remember that SF4 is far more balance than melee could hope to be, the difference between the top tier and lower tier characters aren't disgusting like they are in the smash series, so having less of a character centralization in that game is expected. But even then Mago won I think every tournament he entered using Sagat before SSF4 came out(remember Daigo was only dominant in U.S.) and he had more BP than any player in the world aside from him Sagat had a very strong representation in the top 8 placings. However

I don't think there was ever an agreement as to who the best in sff4 was so jumping forward to ae, Yun and Fei-longs have been pretty dominant, Evo was the first tourney that Daigo dropped and Fuudo(feilong) has been seemingly unstoppable lately.

 

[choknater]

this game is so amazing that we can't decide top tiers and such after 10 years

 

[ShroudedOne]

5) difficult to play consistently well for a whole tournament

I disagree here. His difficulty to play, again, has nothing to do with how well he CAN perform. The fact that Jigglypuff is easy to use doesn't make her high on the tier list, nor does the fact that the learning curve for Yoshi is SOOOO high make him low tier. Fox's learning curve is not a measurement of his attributes, his abilities. Simply player limitations.

 

[EthereaL]

I think people emphasize his strengths too much and don't recognize the weakness in Fox's game. I won't touch on everything as in theory Fox looks amazing, which is my entire problem with his placing in the tier list. IT IS ALL THEORY! For the past 5 years almost none of it has translated into practice, at nationals Fox has always been the least dominant top tier character.

As for example of how he's overrated, look at this AMAZING uthrow to uair. This doesn't work on most characters at ko percent if they DI the uthrow right, moreover even if they fail to DI the Uthrow they have a second chance to DI the first hit of the uair to escape the combo. Fox's opponent essentially has to fail to DI correctly twice, for this to work and that's not something that should be happening at top level very often.

Another example is his overrated laser spam, while it is a good way to rack up damage, it leaves Fox's back to the edge of the stage. People keep claiming this isn't a big deal because fox can just approach his opponent whenever they are in attacking range, but we see how this fails whenever players commit to this strategy, {see Linguini vs Kels, or Axe vs Jman)

I'm not saying that these techniques Fox have are ineffective, I'm saying that they're overrated. Fox has a lot of strong points but his weak points are overlooked or dismissed as not being significant because of how great his good points are(which as I'm trying to illustrate are overrated.

And I suppose the main thing I have against Fox is the fact that he is the only top tier character in the game who gets combo'd harder than he is able to combo. The reason why they are so many vids of lower tier mains beating FOX's is because of how disgustingly combo-able he is.

he's extremely gimpable once caught below the stage, 6th lightest character in the game, moves don't have much range, his damaging combos are more technically demanding than any other character in the game.

I feel as if this post didn't get enough attention, nor did KK's:

1) his moves lose vs other moves (i.e. range)
2) susceptible to SDI and CC defenses in ways that many characters are not
3) gets combo'd to death
4) gets gimped
6) his combos aren't as good as the other top characters

Strife (and those who are questioning Fox's position as "first") should base their argument off of the ideas behind this post (except #5). Then you can make an appeal to people logically...

Arguing tournament placement for Fox, and then attempting to extend that to proper tier placement is just...unproductive.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yes, they did.

Marth was #1 or 2 in just about every list up until 2008 or so.

Thats straight up false. http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_NTSC_tier_lists

marth started in 5th in the early tier lists, and slowly worked his way to #3 and a couple #2 showings. He has never EVER gotten a #1.

edit-

Also it just struck me that PC Chris was most successful after he switched from Fox to Falco, KDJ was most successful after he switched from fox to Shiek, and M2k was most successful after he switched from fox to Marth. Honestly fox just isn't as impressive as people make him out to be.

I wish you'd stop talking about the past, especially when you get your facts WRONGGGG. PC beat ken with falco in 2006, then switched to fox in late 2006-2007. KDJ always played fox and sheik, and in later time switched towards marth. M2k achieved #1 status with marth, but as of to date his marth is his worst tournament character.