Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[ShroudedOne]

WOW.

Jigglypuff used to be REALLY low (1st tier list). And Zelda was fricking HIGH TIER. Jesus.

EDIT: LOL, at the April Fools' tier list. Placing Jiggs in second as a JOKE. And now she's third.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

WOW.

Jigglypuff used to be REALLY low (1st tier list). And Zelda was fricking HIGH TIER. Jesus.

EDIT: LOL, at the April Fools' tier list. Placing Jiggs in second as a JOKE. And now she's third.

really makes you think about the untapped potential that a few mid/low tiers have

 

[rhan]

Idk about the potential about Mid/Low tiers.

The only character I see being amazing if anything is Samus. There's still so much more to Samus than camping and CCing everything. People just don't know.

Being Bias: Link does too. I've seen epic **** come from Link players.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Thats straight up false. http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_NTSC_tier_lists

marth started in 5th in the early tier lists, and slowly worked his way to #3 and a couple #2 showings. He has never EVER gotten a #1.

No, it is not false. As you can see, in 2008, he was ranked TIED with Fox for the top spot -- the wiki is wrong on this point, as far as I know they both had a 9.9 voter score.

Most of those lists are from 2003-2004. What, do you expect the 2006 list to encompass everyone's opinion's from 2005-2008? Because it definitely does not. In that period, Falco was considered 4th or 5th (which is reflected in the 06 and 08 lists), not second. And Marth was either 1st or 2nd.

Anyone who was around at those times could tell you that. Marth was considered number 1 or 2 for a very long time.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Characters with untapped potential:
Ice Climbers
Luigi
Young Link
Yoshi
Ness

imo

 

[rhan]

Young Link really doesn't have much potential...
I've been playing him since I started the competitive scene. There isn't much to him besides camping.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yet you never beat HBox with him

 

[rhan]

You're right. lol

He's also a better player than I am. But any other Jiggs youc an ask. It's not easy for them at all. But just because YL prevails against the flaoty characters doesn't mean there's something else there. Cuz there isn't he's only a trump card against Peach/Jiggs. Every other top/high tier is just dumb.

I would like to think I gave HBox a run for his money any time I played him though. I remember it always got down to his last stock.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I didn't so much mean that he had potential to improve his metagame, just that he has the potential to be used more in response to Peach/Puff.

 

[rhan]

Isn't potential the ability to be used more in a competitive scene? Not in only just a specific match-up?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No one uses YL against Puff or Peach.

They could.

That is all I'm sayin'

 

[rhan]

Sou ka.
You have to larn how to camp first. Once that's done you mastered Young Link. lol


Srsly.

 

[KirbyKaze]

No, it is not false. As you can see, in 2008, he was ranked TIED with Fox for the top spot -- the wiki is wrong on this point, as far as I know they both had a 9.9 voter score.

Most of those lists are from 2003-2004. What, do you expect the 2006 list to encompass everyone's opinion's from 2005-2008? Because it definitely does not. In that period, Falco was considered 4th or 5th (which is reflected in the 06 and 08 lists), not second. And Marth was either 1st or 2nd.

Anyone who was around at those times could tell you that. Marth was considered number 1 or 2 for a very long time.

MBR addressed why Fox was first. His score had a slightly better standard deviation or something. It was not a tie. It was extremely close, perhaps the closest we've ever had two competing characters (especially for a significant spot).

I think tier list making in this community has never really paid too much attention to other fighting games. This may be our undoing, but I think the mix of MUs, tournament results (more for general power levels than specific placements but they're useful IMO), and perceived human potential works for us. We have (had?) a lot of really strange factors, just because of how much stage emphasizes the traits of the MU and the abilities of the characters. In our modern list this is less of an issue, but the presence of really slanted stages like Green Greens was a real problem. We resorted numerous times to "neutral only" tier list, but obviously that's not an accurate representation of the characters' potentials because the ones that excel on the "neutrals" and suck on the "gay stages" get a huge buff.

In a somewhat related note, YLink on Pokefloats is remarkably gay.

 

[Strong Badam]

The score went out to hundredths place but it was rounded to tenths for the thread. Falcon/Jiggs were the only true tie.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm curious as to how those numbers are calculated...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh yeah, Falcon Puff.

I can't believe I forgot that one. It's probably because I have trouble considering them the same tier nowadays.

 

[Strong Badam]

ppl in the MBR make their tier lists and then from those numbers are placed on them.. in the most recent one they just made 1 the best value so it was simple.

 

[ShroudedOne]

That's still a much more simple method than what I would have expected...

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Falco is the best character.

Falco > Fox > Sheik > Puff > Marth > Peach > Falcon / ICs (if wobbling is allowed, ICs are better; if not, Falcon is better)

Doc > Pikachu > Samus > Ganon > Mario / Luigi > DK / YLink > Link

Yoshi (if what leffen says about his potential and parrying and stuff is true) > Mewtwo / Zelda / Roy (seriously have no idea; maybe GAW here too)

Other characters

This is just IMHO and the separations aren't really by tier. I just kind of threw it together because... I felt like throwing it together.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ness is slightly better than garbage tier potential wise, i.e. he could contest G&W and possibly Roy.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think Luigi > DK > Mario. Young Link is tied with DK or Mario ish.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Mario's versatility makes him better than DK.

I'll admit that DK has more raw power in a lot of respects because of Giant Punch, throw > Giant Punch, bair, etc. His bair is honestly probably a better aerial than all of Mario's aerials. But I think all in all Mario has more versatility getting in and has useful chain grabs on a bunch of important characters (that DK lacks). His character just seems more cohesive.

I'm not really sure how their MUs compare since I don't have much experience with either character (aside from fighting them, but if I go off that then I'm biased because the best Mario main I've played is... I don't even know, and the best DK I've played is PKMvodka right after his prime so yeah... that would be terribly unfair). Still, I feel that Mario is a lot better against most forms of quick moves on the account of having a good up tilt, much faster CC options, and more priority in front of him. I think he's definitely better against Falcon, Falco, and Sheik. After that I'm not sure.

I think Y.Link has too many issues with the space animals for him to count in that tier section. I think he's a drop below. He's great versus floaties, and makes a nifty surprise character for Rainbow Cruise and whatever, but I think the fast characters (or ones that limit his movement too much) mow him down too hard. His lack of a chain grab or similar massive punish on the FFers is also crippling... at least when I watch Y.Link vs FFers. His up tilt being like 1/3 the KB of Link's up tilt is also a problem because his ability to launch or induce knockdown is a lot worse.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Lately I've been considering Falco above Fox...it enters my head every now and then, but I don't think one can ignore just how DEAD Falco is offstage. Right now, that's the thing holding me back from saying that he's better than Fox. Quite frankly he's got a better ground game, has more legitimate, cookie cutter combos that work, and he has the potential to control virtually any stage (or at least any stage legal under the current Melee ruleset ). But Fox has a gimp shine and a recovery. So...who knows. They might as well be tied, I think.

I'm also thinking that maybe Jigglypuff could go in between Marth and Peach, but I'm not sure yet....I certainly believe 100% that Sheik deserves that number 3 spot.

This is biased because I have a friend who is a fairly decent Roy main, but I feel like Roy has some untapped potential. Not enough people play him for me to be able to tell. I also might say that Roy > Zelda> Mewtwo, but...I dunno.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco is not 100% dead when he's offstage. He has a lot of good tools that force the opponent to be honest about their gimp attempts. His faster illusion (combined with all the various tricks with illusion) is also very valuable and should not be underestimated.

Fox's recovery is probably better but I really think people underestimate some of the tools Falco has during recovery. He doesn't automatically die when b-thrown by Sheik or whoever. I'd honestly say that you're more likely to cover every relevant option post b-throw in a Sheik ditto (after some percent) than you are vs space animals just because of how many ways they have to sweetspot and the threat of immediate DJ > counterattack / air-dodge.

 

[Winston]

Lol @ Roy having potential. I can't see it. People being on platforms is just so problematic for him... not to mention Peach or Jigglypuff or ICs or whatever...

Unless by potential you mean moving him above Zelda/Mewtwo. In which case I wouldn't argue because I have no clue

Puff > Marth

Based on results, matchups, or speculative potential for improving Puff's metagame?

Or something like intangibles (Puff's ability to grind them out psychologically and then capitalize with rest, even though the easiest rest setups are avoidable)?

I feel like Marth does better vs. Fox and so that should put him above Puff. Most people would say Jiggs does better vs. Sheik, but between those two I'd take the better Fox matchup.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I guess it's unfair to assume that he's dead when offstage, as Falco does have a decent amount of tools. But I'd go so far as to say that Fox has all of those same tools (save the faster illusion), with the added benefit of having more of a grace period than Falco.

If you're patient, too, it's kind of easy to cover most (at least) of Falco's recovery options effectively, I think.

 

[Strong Badam]

I find Falco harder to gimp than Fox.

 

[Winston]

No, I think many situations come down to 50/50s at best for the edgeguarder. High reward 50/50s, sure, but that's very far from 100%.

Fox's recovery may be better in general, but the faster illusion is really relevant, as is the threat of instant dj dair, which makes cavalier offstage gimp attempts VERY risky. Approximating Fox's recovery as strictly better is oversimplifying things too much

Anyway, the point is that even if Fox's recovery is better, it's not worlds apart. I think examining the onstage game is what matters for determining which of those two characters is better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco has the instant DJ dair. Which is actually a pretty significant difference because it greatly changes the dynamics of what is reasonably safe with offstage waiting-based gimps, offstage reaction-based gimps (trading an offstage aerial with dair can very easily kill you), and a lot of run off DJ edgeguards (which are one of the major anti-illusion strats). Fox can recover with instant DJ nair in those same situations but being killed is very different than taking 12% to the jaw. Risking 12% from a nair or whatever is worth it when the reward is a free stock. A stock vs another stock is less... good.

I would add that Falco's side-B being a meteor is really good for similar reasons.

I think Falco's faster side-B and greater danger with DJ dair and whatever forces gimping and edgeguarding to generally be more honest against him. I also think the faster illusion forces a lot more perfection; many times I have seen people throw out a move prematurely to cover the illusion as Falco does it, but then Falco shortens it severely (they didn't move forward enough to cover it because they had to do the move then to cover the deep illusion) and recovers safely. I dunno. A lot of it is situational case-by-case examples but I do feel the faster illusion is really good. Fox's distance is good for recovering to platforms and edgecanceling though.

In general I think Fox's recovery distance is better but Falco's speed and other factors force people to be more conservative during gimps against him, and generally does a better job of keeping his opponent's edgeguards honest.

Winston, I just generally feel that Marth competes well in the 1st hit vs. 1st hit and has a really heavy punishment to keep him afloat as a top tier. However, despite his good juggles and whatever, I do think his lack of a simple, guaranteed KO setup that can be thrown around safely is a real problem. This may just be because of the players getting antsy but it's nonetheless a weakness the other don't really deal with.

I guess it kind of applies to Puff too, kind of, the kill issue. But I think Puff's edgeguarding is better against a select group of characters, though, including Sheik and Falcon. I also think she can lob out sort of but not really KO moves more effectively. Her throws are also stronger, so she can grab > throw offstage > edgeguard more effectively at high percents. I also think Puff's simplistic style against characters like Peach is really hard for them to deal with, because even though Marth does similar things with his range, he lacks the aerial mobility. Also, I genuinely believe Peach can punish or trap Marth after seeing VaNz and Armada go to work in that MU.

I also think Jigglypuff's ability to grind the opponent's mindset into a fine powder from the superficial repetitiveness and the difficulty in setting up a good punishment on her is also not to be underestimated. Her gimping is powerful and facing a Puff with a stock deficit or two just seems so... insurmountable sometimes. People forget that psychological warfare is a part of this game... you can't really neglect something like that. Otherwise whoever had the best plan and reaction time would win. But it doesn't work that way.

I also generally think Puff's combo game and directional throw abuse is untapped.

Regarding how I feel about the two of them and how their MUs compare... I think Marth is better against Fox, but I think Puff is better against Sheik and Falcon. Arguably Falco. That's a lot. I think Marth might still beat Puff in the head-to-head but if he doesn't then that's a lot of useful MUs that are better for Puff. I may be biased though because I'm disregarding the members of the low tier cast and awkward characters that give Puff a hard time (well, it's really just Y.Link and ICs I think... can't really think of anyone else).

I dunno. I'm not entirely sure about that placement now that I write it out. Maybe Marth > Puff. I really am unsure.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Listed like that, I suppose that Falco's recovery isn't really that bad. It just lacks distance (which, by your post, seems to be made up for, at least in part, by his mixups and ability to keep people "honest").

Hmmmm. Something about Falco being no. #1 still doesn't quite click with me, but I can certainly see he and Fox as equals...

 

[Sauce Boss]

Falco has potential to be number one/

 

[Strong Badam]

so does my left foot

 

[Sauce Boss]

So do Falcos happy feet.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think there exists a strong argument for almost any ordering of the top 5 characters. So if people feel he's equal, better, worse, etc. then I don't really care too much. I'm mostly here to debunk theories regarding why <so-and-so> is bad, and to offer insight. With my limited power, I hope to keep discussion moving in a somewhat reasonable direction and to direct it to talk about character traits, since those are far more interesting to me than simple order. We all know the relative groupings by now anyway.

I could, at the end of the day, care less about what the MBR official tier list ordering is.

 

[Sauce Boss]

Falco,Fox,Puff,Marth,Sheik
IMO

 

[Winston]

Listed like that, I suppose that Falco's recovery isn't really that bad. It just lacks distance (which, by your post, seems to be made up for, at least in part, by his mixups and ability to keep people "honest").

Hmmmm. Something about Falco being no. #1 still doesn't quite click with me, but I can certainly see he and Fox as equals...

Distance doesn't matter, only options do, and most characters' KO moves don't send far enough (with good DI) that Falco loses his. (Falcon's the main exception.) Falco is also slightly heavier than Fox.

Distance especially doesn't matter with gimp attempts.

 

[EthereaL]

I've been considering a lot of things, and would like to get opinions...

Here, then, are top two as I see them (using the current stage list)

Top Tier
1. Fox/Falco
2. Sheik
3. Marth

Tier 2
5. Peach
6. Ice Climbers
7. Jigglypuff
8. Captain Falcon

 

[john!]

the current list wasn't even made a year ago. i think the top 12 are fine except for switching sheik/puff

nothing huge has happened to warrant any big changes imo

 

[Cia]

I have a really hard time seeing Falco as the #1 character in melee. His pressure game is strong but.. it's very easy to back him into a corner. It's the differences in their (Fox and Falco) mobility that makes me believe Fox is and will always be the better character. Fox has a stronger punish from grab, has an easier time killing floaties, shine gimps. Only thing falco has over Fox IMO is Dair spike and laser approach.

As for placings, I think ppl are just giving more credit to the characters than the actual players. Yeah, Mango and Peepee have put Puff and Falco in the top 3 quite a lot, but we know they could do the same with Fox as well. I'm sure Armada would also do really well with Fox.

There are a few factors that are being overlooked.

1) For the longest time, Fox has been the most commonly played character in melee. This being the case, most people are going to be completely comfortable fighting against Fox. I, personally, like to fight foxes as Sheik just because of the extensive amount of experience and practice I have playing the match up. That doesn't mean the match up is favorable for Sheik, or that I will always win it. But most of the time when I do win, it's because I knew how fox was going to approach and I how i should respond.

tl:dr - the fox match up is no secret to anyone. Playing fox because he's OP isn't cutting it anymore. Fox players need to learn match ups just like everyone learned to fight Fox.

2) The Top players just aren't playing Fox. And it's as simple is that. When Pc, KDJ, M2K (pre marth), Chillin, Cunning Kitsune, Zelgadis, (etc) were dominating their regions, there was no question that Fox was the best. Now, many of them just don't play like they used to and it's like everyone just forgot what a ridiculous character fox is.. lol.

We still have Jman, Lucky, Colbol, RaynEX, Unknown522, Lovage, Eggm, Remen, Cactuar, and many other great foxes that I've left out. They just have to step it up if they want that #1 spot.

imo,

Fox
Sheik
Falco

Peach <-- (very recently have come to appreciate what a monster she can be.)
Marth
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers

Doctor Mario
Pikachu
Ganon
Young Link

idc about the rest.

 

[Dr Peepee]

WOW young link is high on that list. Is it just for the matchups vs peach and puff or is there more to it?

why do you have puff so low, btw? I'm just curious on the actual reasoning like matchups or whatever.

Great post btw, I agreed with those points. =)