Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Dr Peepee]

Very interesting points. Thanks, Vanz. =)

 

[bossa nova ♪]

and on the saddest day, marth became the most underrated character in super smash brothers melee

 

[Zoler]

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth

Puff
Peach
Falcon
ICs

Doc
Pika
Samus
Yoshi
Luigi
Ganondorf
Mario
Young link
DK

Puff and ganon is overrated. Yoshi is sososo underrated, as stated previously by leffen. IMO ICs belong in high tier maybe even above Falcon but it's so tight I can't make up my mind.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Peach is semi-free for Falcon anyways (grabs). I don't know why they'd complain. But good points, Vanz.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

One of the things I don't like about the current tier list is how it separates ICs from Falcon. It makes it seem as if ICs are a tier worse than Falcon when they are super close...

The voting system is what caused the separation really. Everyone put ICs at 8, so he got a significantly lower voter score than Falcon, who bounced between 5 and 7 on most lists. I doubt most people really view ICs as a tier below Falcon though, so I think the list is misleading.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Roy's our boy! ^^; I wanna bring Roy some rep, sorta like Yoshi!, ^^ Roy's fun, and can be higher,........................maybe.........perhaps.. idk... I think I can do it.. I believe ^^

 

[choknater]

wow you guys

yoshi is bad haha

people gotta know the matchup

basically you just try to abuse moves that
1. force his shield
2. **** his shield
3. he can't CC through it
4. he can't double jump through it

he gets bodied

 

[frotaz37]

Roy's our boy! ^^; I wanna bring Roy some rep, sorta like Yoshi!, ^^ Roy's fun, and can be higher,........................maybe.........perhaps.. idk... I think I can do it.. I believe ^^

Roy is such trash though.

I mean what's he gonna do, up throw you to death?!?!

 

[V3ctorMan]

wow you guys

yoshi is bad haha

people gotta know the matchup

basically you just try to abuse moves that
1. force his shield
2. **** his shield
3. he can't CC through it
4. he can't double jump through it

he gets bodied

You still owe me a match good sir, I'm not saying I'll win, or anything, but i'm confident my Yoshi's not too shabby... i'd hope i can change your opinion/thought on Yoshi, he's not THAT bad...

Roy is such trash though.

I mean what's he gonna do, up throw you to death?!?!

But he's my trash, regardless if he's good or not.. I'm gonna try and make something out of him... Players wanted me to quit when I was workin on, Yoshi, and I made something pretty good out of him ;p , I just want to try the same goal with Roy... I try to keep my goals realistic...I've got a pretty good Mewtwo, recently Yoshi, I'm gonna at least try with Roy ^^

 

[choknater]

i will play you vman. i'm sure he has more potential like you guys are saying, i'm just trying to point out his glaring weaknesses so that people's ideas of him don't get too out of hand.

i think he has a weakness vs strong, high priority, high knockback attacks because he can't really challenge them without risking his double jump. and if he can't cc them how is he supposed to defend? he has to keep moving around, which frees up open space for the opponent to occupy.

i think his falco and ganon matchups are really really bad.

 

[V3ctorMan]

^I can agree to that... most def, I don't want anything TOO crazy being said about Yoshi, but yeah, he definetely has the potential... I'd hope I've at least been able to prove some of that to an extent ^^

EDIT: Depends on what kind of Falco... honestly, and I actually enjoy the ganondorf matchup with Yoshi quite well... ^^

 

[Crooked Crow]

i

i think he has a weakness vs strong, high priority, high knockback attacks because he can't really challenge them without risking his double jump. and if he can't cc them how is he supposed to defend?

Pretty much this. If Yoshi is playing against characters with better pressuring capabilities than him, he gets cornered and essentially boxed up.

But I was talking to Leffen, and even though I think Yoshi's strengths are being slightly exaggerated, Yoshi has a lot of options to counter what different characters throw at him.

Aerial mobility is really good, parrying is better than shielding, and Yoshi can zone and pressure himself fairly well.

But I'm still not entirely sure of where to place him. He's confusing.

 

[Strong Badam]

leffen: from playing v3ctorman I don't think DK Yoshi is very much far from even. 55-45 in Yoshi's favor at worst IMO. I sucked at Pound 5, too.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yoshi beats DK.

Learn new things every day.

 

[frotaz37]

i think his falco and ganon matchups are really really bad.

Falco yeah...but Ganondorf is probably one of his better matchups. He's like the only character Yoshi doesn't have to try hard to combo XD

 

[choknater]

yoshi's combo finishers aren't that good, though ganon is quite easy to edgeguard

anyway

ganon just needs one hit to gain momentum, since even past like 30% yoshi's CC and double jump armor is gonna start failing. if yoshi blocks his attacks, either his shield will slide or there will be too much stun for him to do anything besides roll. they talk about parrying but if ganon just hangs back, sh fairs and bairs and plays conservatively, yoshi is going to be the one trying to get in and any character has trouble doing that vs ganon, because it is so dangerous.

 

[frotaz37]

If Ganon is fair camping you can just throw eggs

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He has to get a hit to combo.

 

[Armada]

PP: I said that as a joke for a bit.
I just think it is weird how people always wanna take up chars just because they had a few moments in tournament.

I don´t have much time now so I can´t write more

 

[Dr Peepee]

basically you're a trendsetter LOL

 

[Nogzor'z]

yoshi's combo finishers aren't that good, though ganon is quite easy to edgeguard

anyway

ganon just needs one hit to gain momentum, since even past like 30% yoshi's CC and double jump armor is gonna start failing. if yoshi blocks his attacks, either his shield will slide or there will be too much stun for him to do anything besides roll. they talk about parrying but if ganon just hangs back, sh fairs and bairs and plays conservatively, yoshi is going to be the one trying to get in and any character has trouble doing that vs ganon, because it is so dangerous.

Actually, yoshi's shield has very little stun after being hit. Frame wise, it'd be better to release shield and act rather than roll.
Not to say its great to do so, just thought I'd point that out.

 

[The Star King]

Yoshi's shield slides super far if you hit his light shield, right? Couldn't you light shield to escape stuff like Falco shield pressure, then?

And choknater, I'm willing to bet forcing shield on such a mobile character is easier said than done, especially since experienced Yoshis will learn to not rely on his shield as much as other people too.

 

[Strong Badam]

Actually, yoshi's shield has very little stun after being hit.

??? Where did you get this? Shield stun is universal.

 

[Mind Trick]

??? Where did you get this? Shield stun is universal.

I don't think it is...

I don't have melee to test it right now, but Yoshi can pretty much drop his shield right after taking a hit, or at least it feels much faster than other characters.

It's funny you guys are talking about Ganon vs Yoshi. There's actually 2 sets of grand finals of a mid tier tourney of me vs ace footage on someone's pc which should be uploaded... soon I guess. However I didn't utilize parry at all, but I did manage to win coming from losers... (we're not that far apart in skill level, play eachother all the time as well)

Ganon can't play conservative, yoshi has eggs lol
Matchup feels somewhat even to me if I play really gay (lots of eggs), Im pretty bad at parrying ganons stuff or anything not fox/falco for that matter.

Yoshi's defensive stuff is really underdeveloped though. Just looking at the falco laser example, marths powershield wavedash this stuff all the time, and yoshi has an even bigger window to absorb the laser.

Then there's also the option of taking it with your doublejump, but thats already a lot more risk because of fair (and neutral b I guess) being the only thing really safe against falco's, and fair is easily intercepted. Lightshield means you're giving up even more space to him, but I guess if you're comfortable on the edge it's not that much of a problem.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yoshi takes 17 frames, the longest out of any character, to drop his shield.

EDIT: okay so Yoshi doesn't have shieldstun. Yoshi broken.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yoshi has a light shield? This is news to me. I guess because you can't see the difference it isn't apparent?

 

[Strong Badam]

yup.
10yups

 

[Max?]

This thread is beyond ******** right now. Yoshi is ***, idgaf. Luigi has a horrible recovery, his combos are really easy to DI out of if you know how and leaves him with very little to no follow up. Ganon > Luigi easy.

This is a good one too

As for Mario, well...he's really not THAT much worse than Doc. Some of his moves are better, including F smash, up smash, and up air, up tilt. Yeah, Mario relies on combo setups for his kills more than Doc, but I would argue that he combos better. The biggest thing that makes him worse than Doc, imo, is the projectile difference, but even fireballs can be used to do similar things. If Doc > Ganon is easy to accept, I see no reason why Mario > Ganon is so hard to accept. If every pro Doc player switched to Mario, I'd be willing to bet they would place almost as well.

Definitely not.

People always say **** like that, and say "Doc and Mario are so similar". Well as someone who mains Doc and uses a lot of Mario, they are not. Doc has superior moves overall; a way better Dsmash which = a way better CC game, Usmash setups, uair functions the same as Marios, bair that gimps, waaaay bigger cape (way more practical for edgeguarding), pills, Fat nair, janky utilt. Mario's combo potential goes to waste (especially his utilt) because he has no legitimate finishers, and lacks solid 2 hit combos that Doc does which deal 30-40%+ damage and set up edgeguards.

Idk, it's so easy to say **** like this, but in reality Mario is way worse than Doc.

 

[:Tally Hoes]

Comparing their combo games is like pointing out that both fox and roy can combo even if they are at 200% it really isn't nearly as important because fox's combos do more for less.

Look at gifs comparing capes and i'n pretty sure docs air moves have a bit more range (upair/bair). As for the recovery arguement I wouldn't count marios much better(match up or tactic changing) unless someone mastered the up b cancel by walljumping so if they rolled as mario was coming up they'd just walljump up b/air dodge and be fine which would be really good with all the inv frames

 

[Divinokage]

This thread is beyond ******** right now. Yoshi is ***, idgaf. Luigi has a horrible recovery, his combos are really easy to DI out of if you know how and leaves him with very little to no follow up. Ganon > Luigi easy.

This is a good one too



Definitely not.

People always say **** like that, and say "Doc and Mario are so similar". Well as someone who mains Doc and uses a lot of Mario, they are not. Doc has superior moves overall; a way better Dsmash which = a way better CC game, Usmash setups, uair functions the same as Marios, bair that gimps, waaaay bigger cape (way more practical for edgeguarding), pills, Fat nair, janky utilt. Mario's combo potential goes to waste (especially his utilt) because he has no legitimate finishers, and lacks solid 2 hit combos that Doc does which deal 30-40%+ damage and set up edgeguards.

Idk, it's so easy to say **** like this, but in reality Mario is way worse than Doc.

Finally, some real sense in this thread! Thank you! Geez... *shakes head* lol.

 

[Mew2King]

thinking about it, luigi actually might be better than ganon, since he has more good important MUs, but I don't really know enough about them in great detail to want to continue to argue this. Lke KirbyKaze, I also forgot luigi existed. Doc is a very good character though. I used him to beat Zanguzen (3 stocked him) after he beat my Fox and Marth in close games at my first tournament (even back then i was losing to falco =/). His edge guarding ability is really good and he stops falco's camping pretty well with his pills and super sheet.

but hardly anyone will believe me cuz very few play doc

 

[Strife]

IDK, they're making me think Yoshi has some potential. It is true that his parrying is entirely under developed, and he has some pretty strong and high stun moves. I could see Yoshi in mid-tier one day.

I mean people thought Pikachu was just as bad as Yoshi just two years ago.

 

[Mew2King]

I just say what I think, based on what I know.

I didn't realize how good pikachu could be at edge guarding before, as well as set up for combos and gimps. Not to mention chain grab Fox/Falco/Falcon pretty hard. With this new information, and seeing Axe with my own eyes, have definitely convinced me that Pikachu is better than Ganon.

 

[Strife]

IDK, I'd still say Ganon is better than Pikachu. Pikachu has a harder time against floties.

And I think people are really overlooking Ganon lately. Part of the problem is that he has poor character representation. Linguini almost never travels out of state anymore, and Kage seems to have hit a stump(he's not improving anymore). I'd still say Ganon is the best mid-tier, right after Doc.

 

[leffen]

Im not going to answer to people who have no idea about Yoshi and his current metagame, people who have never played as him or versus a good Yoshi main yet still are so close minded about the character.

and yeah, pikachu is definitely better than ganon too. The reason Kage isnt improving is because once people learn the matchup, ganon cannot do anything more, ganons play exactly the same as they did 3 years ago cept ppl know the matchup better now

 

[john!]

Im not going to answer to people who have no idea about Yoshi and his current metagame

lol, according to you this is everyone else except leffen

 

[leffen]

dat grammar fail.

I'll happily answer anyone whos actually curious about Yoshi etc, but I'm not gonna answer people who just says that he is bad because of ignorant reasoning X or Y (like he has trouble dealing with pressure or ganons fair or whatever... he has great anti pressure game and every single hit move is easily defeated by parry).

People who claim such things haven't played a yoshi and really, is just throwing out bad theorycrafting.


oh and @Strongbad: DK has the worst anti Yoshi plank game of all characters, he cant even shield them >_<. Parrying all approaching bairs and just throwing eggs/egglaying at retreating also beats all of his spacing game very easily.

If yoshi just approaches though its close to even.

 

[Divinokage]

IDK, I'd still say Ganon is better than Pikachu. Pikachu has a harder time against floties.

And I think people are really overlooking Ganon lately. Part of the problem is that he has poor character representation. Linguini almost never travels out of state anymore, and Kage seems to have hit a stump(he's not improving anymore). I'd still say Ganon is the best mid-tier, right after Doc.

Not improving anymore? Did you stop and think that everyone is improving at the same time but some improve faster than others? Yes, that! The idea of not improving is insulting especially when I put lots of time into the game even now.

 

[Stevo]

My friend used to try to copy Fumi back in the day and I can attest to egg throw from the ledge being really hard to deal with for DK lol. He would kill himself after a while because he wasn't very good, but even though I was a much better player, it was still very annoying.

I don't even want to think about it against someone who is actually good.

 

[john!]

dat grammar fail.

switching from second to third person to avoid repetition isn't a "grammar fail"

nice try though

so who are 3 frequent posters in this thread whose opinions on yoshi you would respect?