Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[leffen]

PP, Kirbykaze, Vman, Mind trick, Nogzorz among a few others.

 

[Jonas]

switching from second to third person to avoid repetition isn't a "grammar fail"

Yes it is. He could have used "yourself" instead.

Not that it's important on a ****ing gaming forum though.

 

[john!]

yourself .

 

[Jonas]

No you

10you

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oh. Sorry Max.

Guess we should just go back to talking about Fox and Falco, cause no one EVER talks about them. Let's have discussions that have been had millions of times already about how Fox is no. 1 (or Falco, or maybe Sheik).

*sigh*

 

[frotaz37]

Definitely not.

People always say **** like that, and say "Doc and Mario are so similar". Well as someone who mains Doc and uses a lot of Mario, they are not. Doc has superior moves overall; a way better Dsmash which = a way better CC game, Usmash setups, uair functions the same as Marios, bair that gimps, waaaay bigger cape (way more practical for edgeguarding), pills, Fat nair, janky utilt. Mario's combo potential goes to waste (especially his utilt) because he has no legitimate finishers, and lacks solid 2 hit combos that Doc does which deal 30-40%+ damage and set up edgeguards.

Idk, it's so easy to say **** like this, but in reality Mario is way worse than Doc.

As somebody who mains Doc and uses a lot of Mario, they are. (Notice how this statement does nothing to improve credibility? Leave **** like this out of discussions)

Have you ever seen a good Mario? He's a solid character and while he's obviously worse than Doc, putting Ganon, Samus, and Pikachu in between the two is straight up ridiculous. Plus I really don't understand why having a "great finisher" is a requirement to be considered a good character. Marth doesn't have good finishers, Peach doesn't have good finishers, Samus doesn't have good finishers. Mario's nair is a decent finisher, as is his upsmash, although I wouldn't call them good. Also his F smash is a good finisher if you know how to set it up. You can gimp with Mario's bair as well. It's not as good as Docs but it can easily be done. Also, his up air is waaaaay different than Docs. Saying that they function the same way makes me question your knowledge of the characters.

And saying that somebody who's great with Doc would "definitely not" place as is well if they used Mario is stupid, because unless you have examples to back it up, there's no point in contradicting my hypothesis with absoluteness.

It's easy to say **** like "Idk, it's so easy to say **** like this, but in reality Mario is way worse than Doc." but in reality, Mario is not THAT much worse than Doc. Statements like that are dumb.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Isn't max like the best doc on the east coast?

 

[Divinokage]

I'd say pretty much, yes. If you compare Shroomed performance with Doc and Mango's performance with mario.. already.. there is a clear difference.. even if it's only one example, it's a viable one.

 

[Strong Badam]

oh and @Strongbad: DK has the worst anti Yoshi plank game of all characters, he cant even shield them >_<. Parrying all approaching bairs and just throwing eggs/egglaying at retreating also beats all of his spacing game very easily.

If yoshi just approaches though its close to even.

i would light shield in that case. XD I can't say I've played a planking Yoshi before so I'm not going to spend much time on that one. parrying approaching bairs seems silly and impractical. empty SH -> grab would make it more of a mixup than a "look I have completely shut down all of DK's approach options!" like Falco's laser does.

i need to play your yoshi one of these days. hope I can make it to apex.

As somebody who mains Doc and uses a lot of Mario, they are. (Notice how this statement does nothing to improve credibility? Leave **** like this out of discussions)

you're full of ****. OTG would 4-stock you for breakfast.

Plus I really don't understand why having a "great finisher" is a requirement to be considered a good character. Marth doesn't have good finishers, Peach doesn't have good finishers, Samus doesn't have good finishers.

those characters have effective edgeguarding games, something mario does not have comparatively (his bair is *** for edgeguarding if they DI properly).

Also, his up air is waaaaay different than Docs. Saying that they function the same way makes me question your knowledge of the characters.

does 11 damage compared to doc's 10 (thus increasing KB and hitstun) but the other values are the same, even the hitbox sizes. pretty much... doc's is better for comboing because they don't have as much ability to DI up or away out of the combo to the point where doc can't followup.

 

[leffen]

Um, Strong bad, if you do a empty/dont attack my usmash/nair/bair/grab etc that I'd punish you with if I parried will come out anyway... meaning emptys don't work, and it actually does shut DK down

 

[Strong Badam]

??? shield drop takes 17 frames, parrying is a commitment.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...You don't drop your shield when parrying, you jump out of it... o_O

 

[Strong Badam]

but that assumes I've hit his shield, thus allowing a JC.

 

[leffen]

It allows you to jump anyway....

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Parrying occurs in the phase when the shield goes up. During this time yoshi is invincible completely, and is able to cancel this animation with a jump. The jump happens regardless of whether someone hit yoshi during this time or not. Parrying is different from powershielding


I think this is what leffen is saying, correct me if im wrong dude

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can JC it even if you don't hit his shield, I don't understand.

He can just shield > jump > wavedash backwards when he expects you to approach. If you do approach, he'll parry the hit and can hit you afterwards or reset positions. If you don't approach, he can just wavedash backwards and reset positions.

 

[leffen]

Wow, strong bad being clueless about a game mechanic... truly shows how underepresented Yoshi is

 

[Strong Badam]

oh i read it wrong, my bad. it says guard on (powershield) so I assumed it was only JCable if you got hit within those frames. (http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9415501&postcount=16)

yo MM at apex if I go to SETTLE THIS MATCH-uPPpP playing super theory bros for mid-tier match-ups isn't enjoyable

 

[:Tally Hoes]

After watching yoshi videos of you, v man and fumi(old metagame taken with a grain of salt) but I feel yoshi really gimicky in the means of approach and a fistful of other tricks that set up approach that most people have yet to fully understand. Yoshi can hit like a truck not really mu dependant is seems but its the getting in and dumb hard to avoid set up for lame gimps or pressure that seems to kill yoshi. Yoshi to me is like a space animal without as great projectile, speed, or approach.

I think yoshi could be proven in tournment moreso that players can keep their tech level up with yoshi I could see him rise to mid tier however saying he is flat out mid-high tier would take sometime slowly rise till some more good/bad pops up to help place him so.

We have yet to see the serious counter yoshi game because it has yet to be needed no way in todays metagame can we say where he belongs right now.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

wow i just saw this in magus post:

Yoshi does not receive any shieldstun from anything at all and can always roll/dodge/grab instantly after shield hitlag ends o_O

 

[Strife]

I feel like Yoshi has more potential than we've seen(same for most lower tiers) but I'm a bit hesitant to put too much trust in what Leffen says. He's a falco main and not a Yoshi main, he barely even uses Yoshi in tournament anymore. I hope people aren't giving him undue credit.

 

[Strong Badam]

Sveet: looks like I'm 0 for 2 in terms of Yoshi shield mechanics today LOL. yoshi broken

 

[frotaz37]

you're full of ****. OTG would 4-stock you for breakfast.

Wow, somebody is mad. Nice to know I can make idiots rage by saying things that are true.

As for all this Yoshi talk....yeah Yoshi is underrated but my god you guys, he ****ing sucks. He's the ultimate example of a character that seems playable in theory but when it comes down to it, he just gets ruined by almost every good character.

 

[~Twitch~]

i'm tired of seeing all of leffen's posts about how yoshi's underrated. but it's not because yoshi's not underatted, he totally is, but i'm tired of leffen.

i might have more respect for leffen's committment to yoshi if he actually had a committment but he just goes spacies all the dang time. how can you build yoshi up so much when you don't even give him the benefit of the doubt yourself?

 

[Strong Badam]

Wow, somebody is mad. Nice to know I can make idiots rage by saying things that are true.

I like how you think you've somehow refuted the rest of my points by saying I am currently feeling an emotion that I may or may not be.

 

[frotaz37]

Yeah, you're just mad. Nowhere did I claim to be refuting any of your points with that post. I gave up on the conversation after you decided to say "You're full of ****" out of nowhere.

****ing kids raging over video game tier lists, I swear.

 

[leffen]

Twitch, I am gonna play more yoshi in the future, I promise

 

[~Twitch~]

Twitch, I am gonna play more yoshi in the future, I promise

thank you. <3

 

[leffen]

EDIT WHAT THE HELL YOSHI HAS NO SHIELDSTUN!? I THOUGHT THAT WAS PARRY ONLY looooooooooool.

omg, I think you can actually shieldgrab a late fox/falco Bair and you can definitely shieldgrab a knee/ganon fair LOLLLLLLLL

 

[frotaz37]

lol getting shield grabbed by Yoshi is the ultimate shame.

 

[leffen]

Uh, you can only shieldgrab fox/falco bair+knee with parry (forgot that he still suffers hitlag unlike when he parries)

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah, you're just mad. Nowhere did I claim to be refuting any of your points with that post. I gave up on the conversation after you decided to say "You're full of ****" out of nowhere.

****ing kids raging over video game tier lists, I swear.

lolol classic. if you don't want to try to refute the points I put forth supporting the notion that Doc's tournament viability is a mini-tier above that of Mario, so be it. don't go around calling people mad when you've given up on an argument though. you don't have to be angry to call someone out.

 

[frotaz37]

"You're full of ****. So and so would 4 stock you" is not calling somebody out. It's mindless trolling.

 

[Strong Badam]

you're a nobody (legit join date tho, i am not worthy *bows down*), OTG is a somebody and has taken sets or games from PC Chris, Hax, Jman, etc. in tournament, with Doctor Mario. yes, it was a call out.

back to dragon ball z

 

[Divinokage]

Uh, you can only shieldgrab fox/falco bair+knee with parry (forgot that he still suffers hitlag unlike when he parries)

I doubt you can shield grab when its fully spaced though.

 

[leffen]

When you parry you can Fsmash a fully spaced one

 

[frotaz37]

you're a nobody (legit join date tho, i am not worthy *bows down*), OTG is a somebody and has taken sets or games from PC Chris, Hax, Jman, etc. in tournament, with Doctor Mario. yes, it was a call out.

back to dragon ball z

It really doesn't matter who I am... my point was that using somebody as your main/being good at the game doesn't mean what you say is correct in regards to character placings on the tier list, and therefore has no place being brought up in a discussion about the tier list.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In a discussion like this where tier placings are arbitrary, it is necessary to give the opinions of experienced players more weight than those of inexperienced players.

 

[frotaz37]

That would only be true if the point of the discussion was for everyone to come to a consensus on what the actual tier list is. If this thread had an overall goal, then you would be right. But it doesn't.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Leffen, I want to see this big post explaining Yoshi's position. Until then, meeting any criticism with "You don't play enough Yoshi, I don't want to explain it" isn't going to cut it.