Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[hungrybox]

LMAO.

I've never heard Hungrybox's thoughts on Puff vs YL. I'd like to know what he thinks about it.

it's ********

 

[rhan]

^^

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
It's really not.

 

[frotaz37]

I'm an elitist prick.

Gotcha. In that case I won't even argue.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Very clever what you did with the quote there, but not arguing suits me just fine, lol

 

[john!]

Peach is better than Falcon because she has a better match-up spread against the top tiers, this has been reinforced by tournament placings and the general consensus of top players.

so what exactly is peach's matchup spread against the top tiers? she doesn't beat any of them, and arguably loses to all of them.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

so what exactly is peach's matchup spread against the top tiers? she doesn't beat any of them, and arguably loses to all of them.

Loses to Fox as hard as Falcon does at top level.
Goes even with Falco, where as Falcon loses.
They both lose slightly to Puff.
They both lose slightly to Sheik, but Peach is probably a little better.
Falcon does better against Marth.
Falcon beats Peach, Peach loses to Falcon.
Peach beats ICs harder than Falcon.

 

[EthereaL]

I feel like Captain Falcon is the most underrated high tie character. At top level like half of his moves lead into a knee once his opponent is at mid-percent. It's freaken ridiculous. I understand that he is very easy to edge guard but I think that just isn't important because he is so good and killing his opponent; when dairs, uairs, dthrow, fthrow, dtilt, all lead into knees he is just scary.

I can't understand why people would want to put Peach above him. Attack > Recovery imo.

You're wrong.

Peach is better than Falcon because she has a better match-up spread against the top tiers, this has been reinforced by tournament placings and the general consensus of top players.

But, you were more wrong. So Strife wins.


Falcon gets the most out of grabs (other than Jiggs b-throw off stage and IC's [duh]). He has a lot of combo-potential, and he's fast. Unfortunately, his disadvantages outweigh this.

As for the match-up spread...Peach has losing match-ups against all of the top tiers, except IC's. Falcon on the other hand is even against about half. But, his shield pressure/tech/recovery simply don't hold up.

Plus Falco ***** him.

Edit: and your match-ups are pretty wrong, Grim.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What would you say his MUs are?

 

[EthereaL]

What would you say his MUs are?

"Pretty wrong" was an exaggeration. Falcon loses to Falco, and is worse against Fox (although from all of those God damned nair-trades you wouldn't think so).

Edit: I should stop typing at 1AM. Fixed.

Edit2: We should all just use Pichu.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can see both of those, yup.

 

[ShroudedOne]

No, I think Peach goes fairly even with Falco. She's actually got good tools for handling him at neutral. I dunno about Sheik, but I feel as though Peach loses to Sheik just a TINY bit more than Falcon.

And lol. Such bickering.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What? Peach loses to sheik worse than falcon? Its an even match-up for peach and one of falcon's absolute worst period.

Peach also doesn't lose as hard to fox or falco. Fox beats peach, but its nowhere near as bad as falco or sheik vs falcon and arguably equal against fox.



Peach has a more stable match-up range, and that counts to me. Having even matchups with everyone is better than having half super favored and half super disfavored.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Explain how Peach goes even with Sheik. I just don't see it.

 

[Winston]

Wavedash back dtilt -> 80% combos, of course

 

[ShroudedOne]

Uh...I know she combos Sheik off of d-tilt, but I'm fairly certain they aren't 80% combos.

 

[Strife]

What? Peach loses to sheik worse than falcon? Its an even match-up for peach and one of falcon's absolute worst period.

Peach also doesn't lose as hard to fox or falco. Fox beats peach, but its nowhere near as bad as falco or sheik vs falcon and arguably equal against fox.



Peach has a more stable match-up range, and that counts to me. Having even matchups with everyone is better than having half super favored and half super disfavored.

Peach goes even with Shiek? Shiek wins that match at like a solid 60 - 40. I don't think I've ever heard anyone besides Amsah(Armada bias) say that the match up is even. And Falcon vs Shiek isn't half as bad as it used to be. Shiek just can't bully Falcon like she used to, read Hax's write up on the match up.

And does Falcon really lose to Fox worse than Peach. Isn't Fox absolutely dreadful to Peach as her worse match up? I remember people saying it was 70- 30 match up not too long ago.

I really only see Falcon losing to Falco harder than Peach. He does better against Marth and they're probably evenish Puff. Falcon also beats Peach head to head. Not to mention that he stomps mid-tiers hard while a lot of them give Peach a whole lot of trouble.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Peach does better against Fox at absolute top of the current metagame, which is what we take into account for tier lists.

Peach does better against Falco.

They probably do even-ish against Puff, like you said.

I dunno about Sheik, but they both lose slightly to her.

Falcon does slightly better against Marth.

Falcon beats Peach head-on, as you said.

Peach beats Ice Climbers harder.

The point is, Peach has the advantage in the two most important MUs in the game, Fox and Falco.

 

[Armada]

In Pal peach has better MUs for sure but in NTSC Peach/Falcon is way clowser sience NTSC does it harder for Peach then for Falcon.

Im actually not 100% sure about which one that have the best MUs in generall sience it is really close in nstc.

I actually have to say I don´t agree with Amsah about the Peach/Sheik MU in ntsc (or pal )

The only really big problem Sheik has against Peach in Pal is that she sucks at kill Peach. Beacuse of that Peach can stay in shield without getting punished for that a lot when she is in danger.

When a key factor like this is completly changed and not really hard to preform the MUs change a lot.

 

[ShroudedOne]

So, if I understand you correctly, the big reason why Sheik wins against Peach in NTSC is because Sheik can kill Peach effectively (dthrow > death). If so, then that makes sense.

 

[Strife]

I don't buy that at top level Peach does better than Falcon against Fox.

Falcon can punish fox just as hard if not harder than vice versa(something Peach is poor at), Falcon can keep up with fox mobility wise, thus he can't get laser camped the ******** way that Peach can. And he gets more from a grab(assuming not FD) than Peach does.

The only thing Peach really has going for is that she is a lot more difficult to edge guard. Which again I don't think counts for so much since Falcon has such an easier time killing.

Armada: Aren't you the one who said that Fox vs Peach was 70 - 30 in Fox's favor?

 

[Mew2King]

ill MM any fox except mango/jman w/ my peach to prove it's not that bad. Fox definitey solidly wins, but this 7:3 stuff is absolute bull****

 

[ShroudedOne]

I agree, M2K. Fox/Peach is not that bad. I thought it was at first, because he has a lot of good things going for him, but honestly, it's definitely a solid 60:40 (maybe more in Fox's favor if he is super campy, but not by much, really). Peach's punishment game is really strong against Fox (I dunno if it's stronger than Falcon's or not).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ill MM any fox except mango/jman w/ my peach to prove it's not that bad. Fox definitey solidly wins, but this 7:3 stuff is absolute bull****

i'd take that MM just for funzies :D

And yeah, sheik has a slight advantage on peach in ntsc, but its very manageable. Hax plays the sheik match-up by camping constantly. He wins because he has the EC patience, i'm pretty sure he still loses to m2k's sheik or a similarly gay, patient sheik.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo I'd do that MM m2k =p

I'm curious

 

[Winston]

Uh...I know she combos Sheik off of d-tilt, but I'm fairly certain they aren't 80% combos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFum9MQXVTM#t=2m32s

:D

(if it needs clarifying, I'm being 1/3 serious, 1/3 facetious, and 1/3 paraphrasing something Amsah once said about the matchup. I know that's not what happens on average.)

 

[ShroudedOne]

I was thinking of that combo when I read your post. Ah, Armada...

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Sheik/Falcon and Sheik/Peach are comparable difficulty. Sheik wins by a good chunk but it's not vicious **** or whatever like Sheik/Ganon or Sheik/Samus.

 

[Divinokage]

I don't buy that at top level Peach does better than Falcon against Fox.

Falcon can punish fox just as hard if not harder than vice versa(something Peach is poor at), Falcon can keep up with fox mobility wise, thus he can't get laser camped the ******** way that Peach can. And he gets more from a grab(assuming not FD) than Peach does.

The only thing Peach really has going for is that she is a lot more difficult to edge guard. Which again I don't think counts for so much since Falcon has such an easier time killing.

Armada: Aren't you the one who said that Fox vs Peach was 70 - 30 in Fox's favor?

I think you forget to see that Peach has a lot of guaranteed setups vs Fox, something Falcon does not have. Falcon needs to rely on knockdowns and reads a lot more often than Peach needs to.

 

[Armada]

ShroudedOne: Yeah pretty much. What changes MUs a lot is when important things changes a lot.

Strife: Peach lose against fox with a big margin. 65:35 is maybe more correct but that MU is really bad to be honest.

M2k: Play a mm against Leffens Fox. But you don´t seem to understand MU sometimes. Actually even if you win or lose against Leffen or anyone else that is not prove that MU is more close to what you say.

The entire community (almost) seems to think that way and it´s STUPID. You are one of the best in this game ever Jason but you have to understand the outcome from you mms is not what make the MU chart.

Many times it feels like you think in this weird way.

If I beat pretty much all the European Falcos with Marth/Sheik does that makes it way closer or in their favor in your opinon?

 

[Strong Badam]

armada what do you think of Peach vs. DK?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo Armada I agree with you for the most part, but it may help if you also offer reasoning behind your claims like why Fox beats Peach so badly. Legit viewpoint though imo

 

[john!]

dk is free for peach

my opinion: fox is peach's worst matchup, followed by marth/falcon (debatable which one is second worst, most people say falcon though), followed by puff/sheik/falco

 

[leffen]

Its all the usual points really + some bad optimization on the fox mains part:

For example:

WD oos + shield DI on Dsmashes

Grab on reaction if peach jabs your shield.

Usmash+ charge oos from dash attacks/ wd oos to utilt etc.

Uthrow -> only second hit of fox uair

Shining better versus Peach recovery, once you learn it its REALLY hard to come back as Peach, as hard as recovering with falco at least.

Platform camping + shield dropping ***** peach.

Shield stopped back airs **** peach when she is on the edge.

Fox's should stop being fkn ******** and not do shine->up B grab on the ledge, esp not vs peach.

Shine grab whenever peach shields... it ***** her so hard (also, stop shield pressuring her for a long periods, if you see her shield /think she will, always just grab she is really bad at avoiding it).

Start DI'ing Peaches combos better... ppl are horrible at this, even mango is.



There is so much more but you get the point, peach players are way better in the match up atm then fox players.

@M2K, I'd gladly take that MM.

@John: Fox is the worst (65-35) shortly after is Jigglypuff, then CF imo.

 

[Wake]

Yeah I think Fox is Peach's worse MU in NTSC, then maybe Puff or Sheik.

 

[:Tally Hoes]

I'm pretty sure I overheard that at like higher percents up throw upair cant/shouldnt combo peach if they know to nair out.

I think some match ups are super baise like this one.

 

[ShroudedOne]

@leffen: Lol, then maybe Foxes are playing it wrong, indeed. It never seems extremely bad whenever I fight a Fox. Fox's grab ***** Peach, though, and I feel like if Foxes camped hard, they'd do a lot better against her. Hopefully they never learn.

EDIT: Falcon is certainly harder than Sheik, though. And is Puff that difficult for Peach?

 

[Strong Badam]

dk is free for peach

i asked for Armada's opinion not yours

 

[john!]

i asked for Armada's opinion not yours

who says i was talking to you?

i offer my opinions and you can take them or leave them.

 

[Wake]

@leffen: Lol, then maybe Foxes are playing it wrong, indeed. It never seems extremely bad whenever I fight a Fox. Fox's grab ***** Peach, though, and I feel like if Foxes camped hard, they'd do a lot better against her. Hopefully they never learn.

EDIT: Falcon is certainly harder than Sheik, though. And is Puff that difficult for Peach?

Hmm... Really? I think Sheik is harder than Falcon with Peach. What is it about Falcon that seems harder than Sheik? I think Sheik edge guards Peach better, and her grab game on Peach (in NTSC at least) feels a bit better. At least easier to kill with, though Falcon's dthrow shenanigans are good too. Also, Sheik's needles are purdy cool for Sheik. I think Sheik is a bit trickier to edge guard with Peach also and harder to combo.

 

[ShroudedOne]

The difference in speed makes it for me, I think. Peach just doesn't have the speed to keep up with Falcon. Sheik gets good profit off of her dthrow, but I think Falcon can just combo Peach better, with his own dthrow, his uairs, his nairs.

After thinking about it, the difference might be really small, but I do think Falcon is harder than Sheik for Peach.