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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Almost everyone in Sweden has flawless english -__-
Cherished Doll
Smash Master
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Well this thread has some interesting questions/topics about Yoshi....
May I perhaps be of assistance? I'm sure I can answer most questions.. ^^
I'm a Yoshi main, i'd say I know a very large amount about him, and I most definetely main him, and play him in tournament environment too...
Hi thread n_n
May I perhaps be of assistance? I'm sure I can answer most questions.. ^^
I'm a Yoshi main, i'd say I know a very large amount about him, and I most definetely main him, and play him in tournament environment too...
Hi thread n_n
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Do you: prefer it dry pooped & not licked, or the other way around; lubed completely, then excreted?
Veetaak
Smash Lord
Wat ar ju talking abaot?
i c wut u did thar
Veetaak
Smash Lord
lol, I didn't notice when I typed that in but now that you have mentioned it, I definitely see what I did thar
I thought you quit douchebag. <3
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Just because i'm not active doesn't mean, I don't know the knowledge required, or that perhaps my abilities with the character flourished.. also I still teach as well, (mainly AZ now a days) and I still make combo videos, Actually have two in the making, I'm not "active" in terms of an individual player. (I've even said this, that I wouldn't be too active in competing etc) doesn't mean I still can't hang with the cool kids..
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Whose combo videos are you working on?
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
^that'd be no fun if I told you now would it. guess you'll have to wait and see.. ^^
guess you'll have to wait and see.. ^^
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I hope it won't be a long wait 
You know it =DThis is true
LOL! :D
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Hey, is there a CURRENT character matchup chart anywhere? All I can find is the one on SmashWiki and that's horribly out of date.
Fortress | Sveet
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Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
@Vman.
Any good posts you can link me to regarding this parrying schtick? Or any other Yoshi metagame changes that people seem to be harping on about?
Any good posts you can link me to regarding this parrying schtick? Or any other Yoshi metagame changes that people seem to be harping on about?
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Recent ones, I don't exactly know how to explain it, but in terms of detail, how the parrying works, read the 2nd post or part II, of this guide for Yoshi... It explains in depth of how it works. and of course i'm exploring more of it too... here's the link
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=73030
^check that thread the 2nd post....
if you need a picture, or example of what parrying can/can/t do.. I'll make a video for it, if not, just about watch any match I have uploaded, Im sure you'll see something...
Parrying is pretty awesome actually.. I hope to push Yoshi further, with the more knowledge, and experience I get, hopefully i'll be able to place better than I did at Pound with him at the next tourney ^^
Yeah? That's good to hear. I guess I just didn't expect a foreign country to be filled with people who flawlessly speak a language that's not their official one.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It's really not.
Great finisher is not a requirement, but it certainly helps. Marth and Peach have tons of range, priority, and other things that help alleviate those weaknesses. That's why they're top tier characters (or near that spot).
Samus's position in relation to Mario is a debatable one.
Anyway, the major differences in terms of their KO potential has to do with the fact that Mario does not have Doc's up smash to setup his finishers or combos, nor does he have the ability to throw > automatic KO move like Doc.
Regarding Mario's finishers... in any combo situation where you could setup an f-smash with Mario, you could probably f-smash or d-smash with Doc (Doc's smashes having more KB make them more useful as finishers). Mario's f-smash's strong suit is the fact that it has the range to be useful for poking and hitting people out of things, but throwing out medium-speed smash attacks is not a particularly strong strategy anyway.
The bottom line is that Doc has two major KO setup moves that Mario does not have, a better down throw CG, weaker combo moves for setting up his KO moves (uair, namely), and a throw > KO. These are big differences. Stuff like Mario's nair have bad trajectories and often cannot KO floaty characters until about 140%+. Some of them can't even be throw > nair'd at KO percents, which forces you to use uair (which also doesn't KO). Doc can skip all of this by fairing 60% earlier. This is very useful.
Mario's bair's trajectory makes it less useful for setting up the initial gimp. This is a big difference.
I agree that it doesn't really matter which one you have when you're actually in the gimp situation (speaking about FFers solely here), but the trajectory difference is huge for actually putting the opponent below the stage (finishing combos). Edgeguarding a high space animal recovery (when they have tons of options) is way harder than edgeguarding a low one.
Against floaties, the difference is much more noticeable. Doc's bair is just generally way more conducive for eliminating options. Mario's greater KB is actually a hindrance here, I find, because it lets the opponent DI it harder and rise more (which is really troublesome vs floaties). Forcing floaties low makes them gimpable (and therefore KOable). Mario's bair is significantly worse at this, because after a few iterations of it they will have gained sufficient height to recover with tons of options (and you can't cover them all!).
Like, when I'm hit by Mario's bair as Marth or Sheik if I DI it well enough I can often recover with just a jump for a good percent range. With Doc, the trajectory is such that a jump is often insufficient and I have to commit to an air-dodge or similar. These differences are absolutely huge.
Doc's uair does the same sort of setups as Mario's, only he has stronger finishers (bair & fair vs. nair & bair, Doc has stronger smashes & better grab game too). It's less conducive for air-comboing, but the fact that it transitions into his ground finishers and a KOing fair more effectively makes up for it (and then some).
So, yeah. They're different. Doc can play a much more efficient game overall.
frotaz37
Smash Lord
Yes, it is.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Something worth noting is that, when discussions of who the best characters are come up, Marth and Peach's relatively poor finishers comparative to Sheik, Fox, etc. are one of the major points stressed to keep them from rising above the higher-placed characters.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
i agree that sheik and fox are definitely better than peach and marth because of easy finishing moves. If this game was only neutrals, marth would be a lot better than he is right now, but he can't fight on non-neutrals at all compared to these other characters. I still don't see him any other ranking than 5th though, and peach any other ranking than 6th. ICs could even be better than falcon cuz of death grabs, but I think ICs and Falcon would be after that. Doc perhaps after, but a clear gap after ICs/Falcon
EthereaL
Smash Journeyman
How on Earth would a good finisher not effect character tier placement, frotaz?
And, Mew2King, are those two statements related, or were you making two separate comments? (The finishing moves / neutrals)
As for m2k's IC's comment, I agree wholeheartedly.
And, Mew2King, are those two statements related, or were you making two separate comments? (The finishing moves / neutrals)
As for m2k's IC's comment, I agree wholeheartedly.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
my view is that spacies and puff are clearly the best 3 characters cuz of shine and OHKO ability (not to mention planking which can give a hefty advantage vs fast fallers once a % lead is gained, and the fact that many things jigglypuff does the risk/reward is heavily in her favor because she is very hard to gimp or combo compared to everybody else in the game) , and the ability of these characters to be really good on counterpicks as well, not to mention teams.
Sheik is a solid 4th (but I think she is really good), Marth 5th, Peach 6th, ICs/Falcon after, then Doc. Perhaps Pikachu after that, then maybe Samus/Ganon then DK?
Something along those lines is my opinion of how good these characters are in the current metagame, under current rulesets.
Sheik is a solid 4th (but I think she is really good), Marth 5th, Peach 6th, ICs/Falcon after, then Doc. Perhaps Pikachu after that, then maybe Samus/Ganon then DK?
Something along those lines is my opinion of how good these characters are in the current metagame, under current rulesets.
EthereaL
Smash Journeyman
But...Jigglypuff can't approach.
But, alright. I understand where you're coming from, now.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think ICs with wobbling are in the same tier as Peach and are a better character than Captain Falcon.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
sheik and jiggs both kind of suck at approaching. They just kind of get near you
but jiggs has
-OHKO from 1 read or guess
-broken in teams
-better on most counterpicks
-the ability to have a big advantage vs all 3 fast fallers once a % lead is gained by planking
-can't be gimped easily
-can gimp you easily from an uair, up tilt, or back throw
-randomly rest OOS from 1 read on a prediction or blocked laggy move, making the safe moves against her and risk/reward for doing them not very good
-back throw that's pretty much instant death
-does not get comboed to death/edge guarded to death like the other characters can.
so i think she's top 3 material easily for these reasons, especially on a human level
but jiggs has
-OHKO from 1 read or guess
-broken in teams
-better on most counterpicks
-the ability to have a big advantage vs all 3 fast fallers once a % lead is gained by planking
-can't be gimped easily
-can gimp you easily from an uair, up tilt, or back throw
-randomly rest OOS from 1 read on a prediction or blocked laggy move, making the safe moves against her and risk/reward for doing them not very good
-back throw that's pretty much instant death
-does not get comboed to death/edge guarded to death like the other characters can.
so i think she's top 3 material easily for these reasons, especially on a human level
EthereaL
Smash Journeyman
Yes.
Fox
Falco
--
Sheik
Marth
--
IC/Peach
Puff
Falcon
@M2K: Yes, but...she can't approach.
That has always been my issue with Jigglypuff...she relies on opponent mistakes, and it's difficult to get any of her "amazing" things going without them. I don't disagree that she's good, I just think that she's below the top 5. In my opinion, anyway.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
and yeah KK ICs with wobbling is really good, definitely better than captain falcon. Falcon beats Peach while ICs don't, and Falcon beats ICs head to head, but ICs seem better at all the important matchups. Chu dat went as far as to tell me he thinks wobbling should be banned and he doesn't use it out of respect a lot of the time, but he does use it to win. That's honestly what he told me last time we talked.
yeah puff can't approach but neither can sheik. Who needs to approach when you can corner your opponent to limited room and limited options near the edge, and do it pretty safely no less.
also did you know if puff bairs fox, puff can either predict a tech roll towards the stage and rest him, or use a dash attack to cover all the other options? That's really really good, after like ~40% or so.
yeah puff can't approach but neither can sheik. Who needs to approach when you can corner your opponent to limited room and limited options near the edge, and do it pretty safely no less.
also did you know if puff bairs fox, puff can either predict a tech roll towards the stage and rest him, or use a dash attack to cover all the other options? That's really really good, after like ~40% or so.
EthereaL
Smash Journeyman
I agree, ICs have great MUs, other than Peach (and apparently Ganon, someone mentioned, but I don't have any experience with that).
As for Sheik...she doesn't have to approach due to needle play. Puff, on the other hand, has to approach.
Unfortunately, she can't.
While, yes, Puff has a good options against a lot of characters, I feel as if the approach issue heavily handicaps her.
As for Sheik...she doesn't have to approach due to needle play. Puff, on the other hand, has to approach.
Unfortunately, she can't.
While, yes, Puff has a good options against a lot of characters, I feel as if the approach issue heavily handicaps her.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I would agree if we were playing on Home Run Contest, where you could run away forever. But you get cornered dude.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I dunno. I feel as though Puff can "approach," only that her avenues are very limited for that. Same with Sheik, but I honestly can't say for sure, because you get so much reward with them for not "approaching."
EthereaL
Smash Journeyman
That's true...however, that's assuming all you do is run away from Puff. Puff being unable to approach doesn't mean you have to move backwards.
On the other hand, I agree to an extent. Puff is dangerous if you're cornered. She can fake you out until you do mess up, and it can be hard to break that "cornered" state.
Strife
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2011
- Messages
- 784
I feel like Captain Falcon is the most underrated high tie character. At top level like half of his moves lead into a knee once his opponent is at mid-percent. It's freaken ridiculous. I understand that he is very easy to edge guard but I think that just isn't important because he is so good and killing his opponent; when dairs, uairs, dthrow, fthrow, dtilt, all lead into knees he is just scary.
I can't understand why people would want to put Peach above him. Attack > Recovery imo.
I can't understand why people would want to put Peach above him. Attack > Recovery imo.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I feel like you're wrong because you don't know enough about the game to formulate an educated opinion.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Peach is better than Falcon because she has a better match-up spread against the top tiers, this has been reinforced by tournament placings and the general consensus of top players.
frotaz37
Smash Lord
Stop posting.I feel like you're wrong because you don't know enough about the game to formulate an educated opinion.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I think I'll keep posting if it is all the same to you, and respond to poor explanations of people's opinions with as much respect as they deserve.