Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[rhan]

Roy is pretty garbage. Fun to watch but there's like no hope.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

wow, young link over samus? i would very much like to hear your reasoning for that.

 

[choknater]

maybe he forgot

 

[john!]

vanz, what convinced you that peach is the 4th best character?

 

[Niko45]

Fox
Falco
Puff
Sheik
Peach
Marth
Falcon
IC/Doc
Samus
Ganon/Pikachu
Luigi

 

[leffen]

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Puff

Peach
CF

IC/Yoshi
Doc/Pika

Samus/Luigi
Ganondorf
Young link
Mario
DK

Inb4 flaming lol

(for pp, I think Puff should be 5th because she loses heavily against the best character in the game and is overrated vs sheik)

edit: what I think about yoshis matchups:

60-40 Fox-Yoshi, 55-45 in PAL
55-45 Falco-Yoshi
60-40 Sheik-Yoshi (45-55 PAL)
50-50 Jigglypuff-Yoshi
55-45 Marth-Yoshi (even in pal)

60-40 Peach-Yoshi
55-45 CF-Yoshi

50-50 Ics-Yoshi
50-50 Doc-Yoshi
45-55 Pika-Yoshi

40-60 Samus-Yoshi
40-60 Luigi - Yoshi
40-60 Ganondorf- Yoshi
40-60 YL-Yoshi
35-65 DK-Yoshi

cba to do more.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'd love to know why you think those Yoshi ratios are what they are haha.

Why is Puff overrated vs Sheik(not that I disagree necessarily)?

And why Luigi where he is? I can believe it but I'm curious lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's because of what we talked about, honey. <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

I know why but shhhh <3

edit: well most of it because I saved the conversation to my old dead laptop LOL but yeah most of it XD

 

[choknater]

pretty sure ganon demolishes yoshi.

 

[Armada]

PP: I said Y link be higher in the next list so Im not surprised at all.

I guess people understand Y link is way better now (suddenly) for some reason.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I know why but shhhh <3

edit: well most of it because I saved the conversation to my old dead laptop LOL but yeah most of it XD

I really should just troll you on AIM or something to theorycraft when I'm having trouble with some sort of simple strategy. You really do provide optimistic yet practical insight to a lot of my problems ^_^

 

[leffen]

@Sheik vs Puff: I feel like sheiks play it far to defensively and need to start pressuring puff and keeping her stage control aggressively. Sheiks needles cover puffs ground and SH options wonderfully and sheiks enormous bair and her good vertical speed covers puffs going high options too. Sheiks needles are also probably the best anti puff planking weapon in the game lol.

I also feel like if Sheiks just started to double stick smash DI puffs uairs/utilts and started using their up bs better (doublehit, moving before explosion to delay timing and slipoofs) it'd be MUCH harder to rest Jigglypuff then it is right know.

I'd love to hear what you're cooking up lol, I have a feeling its gonna be gewd.


@Yoshi's matchups: It'd honestly be pointless since noone except for a select few even knows half of yoshis options and my opinions on the matchups shift frequently lol.
If you have a specific one I could explain sum.

@Luigi: I don't know, I just feel like he is a really solid character (much like samus) that has the ability to do well and he isnt as limited as ganondorf.
@Chok: Lol no. Yoshi can parry -> killmoves/50+% combo every single of ganons attacks very easily and he can't even grab yoshi when he is crouching LOL. Oh and he can't handle his planking either.

 

[KirbyKaze]

@Sheik vs Puff: I feel like sheiks play it far to defensively and need to start pressuring puff and keeping her stage control aggressively. Sheiks needles cover puffs ground and SH options wonderfully and sheiks enormous bair and her good vertical speed covers puffs going high options too. Sheiks needles are also probably the best anti puff planking weapon in the game lol.

I also feel like if Sheiks just started to double stick smash DI puffs uairs/utilts and started using their up bs better (doublehit, moving before explosion to delay timing and slipoofs) it'd be MUCH harder to rest Jigglypuff then it is right know.

I think covering double poof is brainlessly easy, but I agree with the rest of this 100%.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP: I said Y link be higher in the next list so Im not surprised at all.

I guess people understand Y link is way better now (suddenly) for some reason.

Well aside from vs Puff(and Peach too many would say), what do you think does it that makes YL so good?

I really should just troll you on AIM or something to theorycraft when I'm having trouble with some sort of simple strategy. You really do provide optimistic yet practical insight to a lot of my problems ^_^

Do it baby I'm always on =)

@Sheik vs Puff: I feel like sheiks play it far to defensively and need to start pressuring puff and keeping her stage control aggressively. Sheiks needles cover puffs ground and SH options wonderfully and sheiks enormous bair and her good vertical speed covers puffs going high options too. Sheiks needles are also probably the best anti puff planking weapon in the game lol.

I also feel like if Sheiks just started to double stick smash DI puffs uairs/utilts and started using their up bs better (doublehit, moving before explosion to delay timing and slipoofs) it'd be MUCH harder to rest Jigglypuff then it is right know.

I'd love to hear what you're cooking up lol, I have a feeling its gonna be gewd.


@Chok: Lol no. Yoshi can parry -> killmoves/50+% combo every single of ganons attacks very easily and he can't even grab yoshi when he is crouching LOL. Oh and he can't handle his planking either.

The next issue after that is Puff's crouch on Sheik(which I think Dtilt and maybe Ftilt later as well as Fair or needle could potentially cover), but yeah you covered the majority of the good stuff. =)

Is it feasible to plank a lot with Yoshi? Can't you die out of that pretty easily? I guess not with that double jump armor but it still seems unsafe sometimes. I confess I don't know much about Yoshi so if you wanna explain it that'd be cool haha.

Also is parrying consistently on reaction possible to do in any matchup?

 

[Dark Hart]

Zelda

That is all

 

[KirbyKaze]

Needles > d-smash combo is pretty good against duck and d-smash as a standalone is pretty good against duck after like 30% or so if you're pressuring her near the edge because it forces her to grab the edge. Which is neat!

Duck is still pretty gay, though.

 

[Divinokage]

But.. Young link is a piece of ****. Luigi is ***, and how the hell does Yoshi have advantage over Ganon? I guess ALL Ganons you have played are **** most likely. No one can have a pocket Ganon. I get the feeling that just because there's NO Ganons then that automatically means he should be lower for some reason? It makes no sense at all.

 

[leffen]

The thing about Yoshi's planking is... that you will fkn die (SD), A LOT, in the start. Though nowadays even tho I dont really play all that much yoshi in friendlies I can do his stall with 99,5% accuracy in a reasonably warmed up state, and I'm sure that the failure rate will decrease even more with time.

As for people killing you, it really doesnt happen if you aren't hopelessly careless, especially vs slower characters. The eggs do huge amounts of damage, have great (shieldstun) and you can sheild poke very easily (you can also make it bounce without exploding on shields if you're good).

Parrying can be done on reaction AND if you miss it nothing will change in your timing (you don't get hitstun even when ppl hit you, but the opponent does lol). This is its biggest strength compared to Powershielding and it also means you option select by doings things like :

Parry->Jump (punish ganon's fair with your own if he used it, otherwise space/mixup)
Parry->Wavedash (makes you able to chase/punish Jigglypuff when she spaces a bair for example, if she fakes it, you WD in anyway)
Parry->Usmash (when a falco/fox is falling on you and you expect a bair/dair, you will parry and punish if they try hit you and just hit them anyway if they dont)
Powershield+Parry -> Egg throw (vs falcos lasers lol, combos xD)

and stuff like that.


@Puffs crouch. I just like to see puffs crouch as a shield which you cannot grab but instead is vulnerable to low hitting attacks. She cannot move while crouching and when you realize that human reaction is 15 frames+ you realize that she has to predict a lot more than you think.

I've actually had some random success in using Sheiks chain a tiny bit vs it LOLLL


EDIT:@Kage: Lol calm down, you are making zero arguments and are calling people **** lol.
If I were to base this off results then you would made me think Link have a advantage over Ganon so shush

 

[Divinokage]

I don't see anyone making proper arguments either... saying Luigi has more options than Ganon, how?? You can't just drop a statement like that and expect me to believe it. If you can stop thinking Ganon is just Jump back Fair to win then maybe you'll understand more about Ganon since that's the general assumption lol.

 

[leffen]

Well to start with he has much less lag, is faster, has more AT's, has a better recovery, has real use for every move in every matchup unlike ganon and is much faster on the ledge.


And I know a lot about Ganondorf, otherwise I wouldnt put him below his average placing tbh.
I've played you (P:M), BizzaroFlames and Qlex and we have 2 ganondorf mains in my region. I think I have a pretty fair understanding of him, and 100x moreso than you have of Luigi and especially Yoshi LOL

 

[zorie100]

damn right fox and falco are the best

 

[Stevo]

-zorie100

you heard it here first




Ganon players surprise me sometimes with speed from the ledge, but I guess that could be a surprise factor more than anything.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yoshi better than Doc and same as ICs? Those are some boooold statements Leffen.

...can you explain your thoughts on v. Falco though? How is Yoshi supposed to get around lasers without a shield and an awkward DJ? That matchup always looks so brutal when I watch it.

 

[Divinokage]

Well to start with he has much less lag, is faster, has more AT's, has a better recovery, has real use for every move in every matchup unlike ganon and is much faster on the ledge.


And I know a lot about Ganondorf, otherwise I wouldnt put him below his average placing tbh.
I've played you (P:M), BizzaroFlames and Qlex and we have 2 ganondorf mains in my region. I think I have a pretty fair understanding of him, and 100x moreso than you have of Luigi and especially Yoshi LOL

Faster? In the air he gets owned pretty bad by a lot of characters, especially Ganon. His WD is good yes, but his approaches arent that good since he can't cover many angles with his attacks... he has to rely on guesses. Has more AT's? What does that mean? lol. Better recovery is laughable, a good player will kill Luigi off-stage normally, anyways. As for uses for every move, that depends.. I think you forget how POWERFUL Ganon is, sure he doesn't have a utilt or neutral-B, but he doesn't need these things to win. With the defense mechanics, Luigi combos are pretty lols. Much faster on the ledge I disagree, it takes him a while before he can DJ on stage, he'll get hit right back out easily. And you say you have x100 more understand of Luigi when I played Ka-master, which was the best Luigi in the world in more than 150 matches.. don't give me your BS how you think you know more.

 

[leffen]

Parry powershielding.

The reason it looks brutal is because you are watching bad yoshis

@Kage: "Luigi has to rely on guesses" LOL, you play ganon, the most guess based character in the game because of how slow he is lol. Luigi can actually react to many spacings and has a great shield which ganon has not.
"cant cover many angles" what angles cant he cover? Low, Middle and high (ground level) and the rest he jumps for. And Ganon is hella slow in the air too. His recovery is actually really good vs certain characters, especially compared to how horrible ganons is. And you dont need to have all moves useful to win, but it helps, you cannot argue with that. Luigi combos are much better than any combo ganon has lol and he can actually react and cover more than one option ;O

On the ledge: Luigi can invincible WD ridiculously fast, he can do any aerial except nair twice from the ledge and still grab it/waveland onto the stage etc and his standup/jump/roll/getup attack data is much better. Compare this to ganon who can basically only WD on stage since all of his other lose to just waiting and reacting.

I have played over 2000 matches vs Ajpanton AND I team with him and I draft a lot of our team strategies by myself. Eat. IT.
Oh and I compared my ganon knowledge to your Luigi/Yoshi knowledge, and I have much more exp than 150 matches in 1 matchup lol.
Please fkn read before you bull****


how I view Ganon/Luigis top tier matchups (G/L = how much the character wins over Ganon/Luigi, Fox G60= 60-40 Fox). Tell me what you disagree on ;o

Fox: G65 L60
Falco G70 L60
Jigglypuff G60 L50
Sheik G65 L60
Marth G55 L55
Peach G60 L55
CF G60 L55

 

[Winston]

Initially I wanted to wtf @ Luigi > Ganon, but...

The characters that lose to most of the top tiers are starting to blur together for me in viability... so sure, why not. It's not out of the question

Ganon does better vs. Marth, Luigi does better vs. Puff, all their other matchups are close enough I think. They both lose to Fox/Falco/Sheik by a fair margin. Not sure how stuff like Peach vs. Ganon or Peach vs. Luigi goes in theory.

 

[leffen]

I honestly just think that Luigi has way more potential to be explored whereas ganons nowadays look exactly the same as they did 3 years ago(ofc they are better at reading etc but thats beside the point).

The Luigi-Falco matchup isnt even CLOSE to as bad as Ganon-Falco and neither is Sheik.

 

[Wake]

Wow that'd be cool if Yoshi actually jumped that high on the next tier list. Also, I agree that IC with wobbling might be better than CF... I think Sheik should switch with Puff. Also, I can maaaaybe see Peach being above Marth for a while, but I'm not so sure about that.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I don't want to comment on matchups for chars I don't play so I'll just say this: Marth definitely beats Luigi harder than he does Ganon.

 

[frotaz37]

Roy is one of the worst characters in the game, he's way too high on the list.

Tier 1: Fox > Falco
Tier 2: Sheik > Marth > Peach
Tier 3: Falcon > Puff > Ice Climbers
Tier 4: Doc > Samus > Mario
Tier 5: Luigi = Ganon
Tier 6: Pikachu > DK > Link
Tier 7: Young Link > Yoshi
Tier 8: Zelda > G&W > Mewtwo
Tier 9: Ness = Roy
Tier 10: Pichu > Kirby > Bowser

 

[Dark Hart]

Hey Kage

EAT.IT

~ leffen

 

[ShroudedOne]

@KirbyKaze: I want to know some Yoshi secrets too! He's a character I'm interested in a lot.

@leffen: No flaming, but...to put Yoshi as high up as ICs...wow. Also, I feel like I agree with Puff being in between Marth and Peach. For now, anyways. Also, those are interesting thoughts on Sheik/Puff. It's funny, these days, MUs aren't seeming as bad as I thought they were.

Also, Winston, I would argue that distance gives you more options.

 

[Strife]

Roy is one of the worst characters in the game, he's way too high on the list.

Tier 1: Fox > Falco
Tier 2: Sheik > Marth > Peach
Tier 3: Falcon > Puff > Ice Climbers
Tier 4: Doc > Samus > Mario
Tier 5: Luigi = Ganon
Tier 6: Pikachu > DK > Link
Tier 7: Young Link > Yoshi
Tier 8: Zelda > G&W > Mewtwo
Tier 9: Ness = Roy
Tier 10: Pichu > Kirby > Bowser

I just cannot accept Mario ranked higher than Ganon. Mario simply lack ko power. It's too difficult for him to kill his opponent regardless of how semi-versitile he is.

 

[rhan]

Roy is one of the worst characters in the game, he's way too high on the list.

Tier 1: Fox > Falco
Tier 2: Sheik > Marth > Peach
Tier 3: Falcon > Puff > Ice Climbers
Tier 4: Doc > Samus > Mario
Tier 5: Luigi = Ganon
Tier 6: Pikachu > DK > Link
Tier 7: Young Link > Yoshi
Tier 8: Zelda > G&W > Mewtwo
Tier 9: Ness = Roy
Tier 10: Pichu > Kirby > Bowser

Yoshi > Mewtwo?
Luigi = Ganon?
Mario > Ganon?


What is this?

 

[Zoler]

I'm pretty sure that Ganon will drop some. To me samus and pika is better. Maybe even luigi and yoshi.

Ganon has to work so much to get that kill, he hits hard but is often too slow to tech chase /follow up. Then if he get's that hit and somehow gets a great combo off with some reads, one hit and he's combo food, once off the stage he's almost always dead unless the opponent fails somehow. Samus, pika, luigi and yoshi is way more resistant to combos. Samus and Pika have way better recoveries, luigi and yoshi is arguable but I'd place them at around the same level. All of them are also WAY faster than ganon like not even close. The only thing ganon has going for him is that fair pretty much, which can easily be punished.

Keep in mind I'm not saying ganon is garbage or a bad character, I really do love ganon, but I've recently realized ganon just isn't that good at all. :/

 

[Divinokage]

Parry powershielding.

The reason it looks brutal is because you are watching bad yoshis

@Kage: "Luigi has to rely on guesses" LOL, you play ganon, the most guess based character in the game because of how slow he is lol. Luigi can actually react to many spacings and has a great shield which ganon has not.
"cant cover many angles" what angles cant he cover? Low, Middle and high (ground level) and the rest he jumps for. And Ganon is hella slow in the air too. His recovery is actually really good vs certain characters, especially compared to how horrible ganons is. And you dont need to have all moves useful to win, but it helps, you cannot argue with that. Luigi combos are much better than any combo ganon has lol and he can actually react and cover more than one option ;O

On the ledge: Luigi can invincible WD ridiculously fast, he can do any aerial except nair twice from the ledge and still grab it/waveland onto the stage etc and his standup/jump/roll/getup attack data is much better. Compare this to ganon who can basically only WD on stage since all of his other lose to just waiting and reacting.

I have played over 2000 matches vs Ajpanton AND I team with him and I draft a lot of our team strategies by myself. Eat. IT.
Oh and I compared my ganon knowledge to your Luigi/Yoshi knowledge, and I have much more exp than 150 matches in 1 matchup lol.
Please fkn read before you bull****


how I view Ganon/Luigis top tier matchups (G/L = how much the character wins over Ganon/Luigi, Fox G60= 60-40 Fox). Tell me what you disagree on ;o

Fox: G65 L60
Falco G70 L60
Jigglypuff G60 L50
Sheik G65 L60
Marth G55 L55
Peach G60 L55
CF G60 L55

Umm I disagree with Ganon-Falco, it's probably 6-4 for Falco also. With Jiggs, i'd say it's pretty close to even, with Marth sure that's fine.. Peach should be close to even too, imo.

Zoler, that's cuz you aren't manly enough, you don't understand the power!

 

[Winston]

I honestly just think that Luigi has way more potential to be explored whereas ganons nowadays look exactly the same as they did 3 years ago(ofc they are better at reading etc but thats beside the point).

The Luigi-Falco matchup isnt even CLOSE to as bad as Ganon-Falco and neither is Sheik.

Tell me how to play Luigi vs. Falco and Luigi vs. Sheik

Serious question, I have a LOT of trouble with those matchups

 

[frotaz37]

Yoshi > Mewtwo?
Luigi = Ganon?
Mario > Ganon?


What is this?

Mewtwo dies at like 80%, lacks KO power, and gets destroyed easily by all of the good characters.
Yoshi is one of the heaviest in the game, has one of the best ledge stalls (assuming you can do it without KOing yourself), has decent air moves, and while his shield is lacking in certain areas, it has some unique properties that can be taken advantage of that make it pretty ****, namely parry --> KO or super light shielding to escape almost any approach.

Ganon is only better than like, zelda, bowser, and game & watch when it comes to dealing with shield pressure. Once your opponent realizes that the best way to beat Ganon is to just run at him and spam attack, he loses all viability as a competitive character. People only lose to Ganon because they play defensively (or pick Samus). A well played Luigi is difficult to combo, hard to catch, and has combos that don't involve guessing where your opponent is going to go next, which make up 70%+ of Ganon's combos and more importantly, his combos starters. I feel like somebody could say that Luigi > Ganon and it'd be hard to argue, but I think Ganons range gives him better matchups vs certain characters than Luigi, so I put them at =.

As for Mario, well...he's really not THAT much worse than Doc. Some of his moves are better, including F smash, up smash, and up air, up tilt. Yeah, Mario relies on combo setups for his kills more than Doc, but I would argue that he combos better. The biggest thing that makes him worse than Doc, imo, is the projectile difference, but even fireballs can be used to do similar things. If Doc > Ganon is easy to accept, I see no reason why Mario > Ganon is so hard to accept. If every pro Doc player switched to Mario, I'd be willing to bet they would place almost as well.

 

[Cia]

WOW young link is high on that list. Is it just for the matchups vs peach and puff or is there more to it?

why do you have puff so low, btw? I'm just curious on the actual reasoning like matchups or whatever.

Great post btw, I agreed with those points. =)

I completely forgot about Luigi and Samus. They'd be right above him on my list. But I have Young Link so high because unlike most characters behind him on the list, he has decent match ups in high tier. Such great control over floaties / characters that have to exhaust tons of recovery skills to catch him. That's better than just "competes well in the low tier."

My puff placing.. I just don't think she's better than the characters I listed above her. I still think Peach has a hard time against her, but everyone else above her can wall puff out pretty easily. Puff is great a punishing mistakes. Probably the best a it. But at top level play, mistakes are not that common. Her pokes are amazing as well, but she has to keep extending herself to keep pressure on. She has tons of vulnerabilities, we (as a community) just need to get better at exploiting them.

vanz, what convinced you that peach is the 4th best character?

There's a very strong chance that I have her a bit too high. But the way I see it, Peach just has so much going for her, I never really thought about it until I realized I'd never want to be up against a Peach who will control every move you make on the stage. It's a combination of her float cancels and turnips. Turnips create openings unlike any other move in the game. (Credit goes to Veril for helping me realize this) Before a turnip even lands on it's target, Peach will be in a Neutral position. This means that before you even experience knockback, Peach will be ready to hit with something else. Naturally when you see a turnip heading for you, your instincts are to catch it, dodge, shield it, or just hit it. Either way, Peach was able to gauge a reaction from you and can follow up with an Aerial, Dash attach, grab, or w.e combo starter you can think of. However you respond, Peach comes out ahead because she forces you to create lag for yourself. That's a very powerful ability to have that I think I've just ignored for too long.

Then there's her Float Canceled Aerials, which is nothing new. But the list of frame traps you can create from them just goes on and on. The fact that FC Fair on shield is a 'guaranteed' grab make's it an approach you HAVE to avoid unless you want to take tons of damage. And because of the sheer speed she can put out aerials, she trades with almost everything and will come out ahead more often than not.

IMO, very underestimated abilities.

Her match ups with the characters around her are OK. Falcos, on average, seem to not like fighting Peach. (why idk, but i'll take it) I've been seeing a few Marths say they don't like it. Falcon players complain about everything anyway, so I don't take them srsly

So ya, all of those factors went into my decision