Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[choknater]

Nah she would probably be 5th. The sheer number of high placing marths and sheiks would probably put them above peach. This is because armada is an outlier and there arent really any other peach's that get lots of points for her. Puff probably will drop below them all, though, since theres basially only hbox and he had a slump period recently (compared to being APEX champ last year i think)

sheer number of high placing marths and sheiks.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

where?

also

beast 2 is another huge 1st place for armada!

Spoiler

and apex

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nah you are washed up, remember? lol. How dare you do this mindgame to me when I obviously saw right through you that I'm going to get massively *****?

That wasn't a mindgame. I seriously feel... frisky. I guess. But now it's raining and I'm still tired so I guess I'll either have to wait or resort to the internet to entertain me.

While I won't deny I'm likely overestimating Peach's success, I'm similarly unconvinced there are many high placing Sheiks. I can only think of 5 or so (and I think that's being generous because a few are one-hit wonders or only just started placing well), and other than Tope and myself every decent Sheik plays at least one supplementary character in tournament (I'm excluding Amsah because of PAL but I guess with a whole other continent we're up to three Sheik-exclusive players?). And periodically that supplementary character is Peach.

 

[Divinokage]

How can you feel frisky when you obviously got even better than before? I don't get it.. lol. Where was the times when I gave you a hard time? =(

 

[choknater]

LMAO

kage i'm sure you give him a hard time all the time.

 

[KirbyKaze]

How can you feel frisky when you obviously got even better than before? I don't get it.. lol. Where was the times when I gave you a hard time? =(

When I said "I'm so gay I'm craving a gargantuan bucket of man milk" I wasn't talking about smash matches so much as my desire to have sex with men.

 

[Divinokage]

I guess you just need someone to warm you up inside.. lol.

 

[choknater]

oh my god. LOL.

anyway

i can see fly is viewing this thread so next time i see him i want him to play me ic's vs ylink. i got this.

(and lots of dittos again)

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Okay, sure.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sheer number of high placing marths and sheiks.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

where?

also

beast 2 is another huge 1st place for armada!

Spoiler

and apex

The CRL takes all tournaments over a certain size into account. Also, when I did it i only looked at NA tournaments since europe not only has a different game but also because the metagames are very different because of lack of exposure to each other.

Make a list of the top 5 Marths, top 5 Sheiks and then top 5 peach's. Compare how they do in tournaments in general. M2k, Dart, Tai, Taj, Niko, ect, all do very well in their regions always placing in the top 5 or higher. M2k, KK, Atma, Tec0 others (idk current sheik mains). Compared to peach players there like... DoH... MacD doesn't play anymore Afaik. KK and Tec0 probably would get put in that list somewhere simply because they fool around with peach a lot. Does vanz still play? Connor?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pound 5 broke even for character representation in the bracket, I think. Armada, DoH, MacD, VaNz, and DJ Nintendo (randomly). That stacks up against... Plank, myself, Tope, Amsah, and M2K (less randomly). Unless I missed someone, which I could have.

Also, if the ranking considers locals, I don't really bring in much for Sheik in that case because I can't go to my locals as a result of my work schedule. So you're gonna have to give those points to Fox or whatever. And then people like Silly Kyle, Mikey Lenetia, and Kalamazhu count towards Peach's points. I'm not sure why but I find a lot of small regional tournaments with like 30 entrants or so just have a Peach in top 5 because, like, why not? Also, using atma's kind of lame because he only recently starting breaking out (and I know he used Peach at Genesis 2 for a bit anyway).

I dunno. I mean, there are probably like 2-3 more decent Sheik players than Peaches or something in most national brackets (because VaNz would count as a Sheik too, although Tope is being inconsistent because of ruleset gayness at APEX and getting drunk at Genesis 2 but whatever). But including stuff like regional results skews results a lot and makes me frown a bit because I don't really care about regionals and a bunch of high level people have jobs and just don't bother to ask for the time off (some work environments... just suck).


.

 

[Wake]

When I said "I'm so gay I'm craving a gargantuan bucket of man milk" I wasn't talking about smash matches so much as my desire to have sex with men.

hahaha This is the message I got when I read that post.

 

[KirbyKaze]

hahaha This is the message I got when I read that post.

I didn't think that one could be interpreted differently. Even by the warrior.

But I guess different cultures, different customs...

S'all good.

 

[Divinokage]

I didn't think that one could be interpreted differently. Even by the warrior.

But I guess different cultures, different customs...

S'all good.

Oh cmon, you gotta give my intelligence SOME credit. *Continues to swing sword*

 

[The Star King]

*looking forward to plup going to nationals*

I hope you weren't actually fooled by Hbox letting Plup beat him in the Swiss bracket

 

[TheLake]

Ooh man zelda vs mewtwo...I feel I missed the train but im all aboard anways

For me, their both so cool

its all about style at the end of the day

which is what matters for low tiers

Zelda is all glam

and mewtwo is all tupac/cutthroat

they both have really really cool upsmash's

and groovy grabs

mewtwo is all over the place

and zelda hits you and you die

zelda > mewtwo

bias

taj > thelake

<3

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh cmon, you gotta give my intelligence SOME credit. *Continues to swing sword*

Is that your twilight sword or are you just happy to see me?

 

[V3ctorMan]

Wild yoshi appears to make it..

Yoshi > Mewtwo = Zelda..

bias

yeah

 

[V3ctorMan]

Yeah Yoshi is the hardest character in the game to be consistent with and the most technical imho.

(I'm pretty damn technical with fox/falco/etc so I wouldnt call me biased, I'd call me experienced).

I can agree to this, ^^

special shoutoutz 2 fumi.

Fumi's awesome

You only have to watch Vman or leffen play Yoshi, to get a glimpse of how technical he is. If I didn't care about developing arthritis at 22, I'd try to pick up Yoshi.

Yoshi's fun you should play him, i'd like love you forever

Oh god.

I'm going to write a post soon but I gotta do some **** atm ;p

but yeah, if you havent played yoshi for 100+ hours in the last year then you have NO right whatsoever to speak about his potential, his metagame atm can only be compared with Fox's before SHFFL, Lcancel and canceling shine with jump.

Honestly, I'm probably the only one who know about his true potential since the only other high level yoshi player is V3ctorman and he is not active+he isnt focusing on yoshi when he plays (and he isnt trying to implement a lot of imho, essential stuff).

I'm gonna do my best to deliver a lenghty, indepth post sometime in the near future than will go through his new techniques, their uses in the top tier matchups, how yoshi actually functions and how yoshis new metagame is gonna be like.

Leffen, is completely right, on thoughts about Yoshi.. He's also right about my activity... It's not that I'm not active, Leffen is just MUCH more active than I am, as I am training my crew to expand their game(s) to the next level... I too know the true potential of Yoshi, well IMO, and I've got the results to back for it as well.. (Pound V w/Yoshi) not to mention the players I've beaten w/Yoshi... I've taken games from Hungrybox, M2k, Hax, Weon-X, Azen, Dart, many high calibur class players...

Leffen is indeed right that I haven't exactly, attempted to implement certain essential things with Yoshi, but with the resume, and record I have with Yoshi, and players. I haven't exactly needed to just yet.. Of course in due time, I will need to add more, but the way I've played has been successful for me vs many of the best players, so I'll continue to do what I can to further develop my game...and of course what works for me ^^

Leffen's Yoshi is amazing!, he just needs some more videos. . As for Yoshi's metagame, I have high hopes for him... I'm hoping Leffen, or heck any Yoshi player(s) attempt to further pursue Yoshi's game than what I've already shown, can be done... (Prays Leffen goes all Yoshi at apex) <3

Lastly, I'm not quite finished with Yoshi Leffen, actually I probably, won't be.. I've such a reputation with him, I might not be able to stop playing him.. >.<; For the time being, im definetely pursuing Roy.. <--- (I know right don't ask, or doubt) You guys doubted my Yoshi, don't count my Roy out JUST yet.. pretty please ) I feel I can push Roy further similar to how I pushed Yoshi.. ^^; Only time will tell ^^;

Well how about this?.. what do you guys think?
Should I play Yoshi or Roy? ^^

Either way, I'll help with anything I can... ^^
Good stuff Leffen, Keep up the Yoshi rep/hype.. Hope to hear from you ^^

 

[Winston]

The CRL takes all tournaments over a certain size into account. Also, when I did it i only looked at NA tournaments since europe not only has a different game but also because the metagames are very different because of lack of exposure to each other.

Make a list of the top 5 Marths, top 5 Sheiks and then top 5 peach's. Compare how they do in tournaments in general. M2k, Dart, Tai, Taj, Niko, ect, all do very well in their regions always placing in the top 5 or higher. M2k, KK, Atma, Tec0 others (idk current sheik mains). Compared to peach players there like... DoH... MacD doesn't play anymore Afaik. KK and Tec0 probably would get put in that list somewhere simply because they fool around with peach a lot. Does vanz still play? Connor?

This would be a reason why I would be strongly against basing a tier list off something like the CRL in a literal sense.

Perhaps better than the alternative of only using huge tournaments and having no sample size, but still not good.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If leffen actually has developed a much better movement game and managed to find ways to mitigate or remove Yoshi's weaknesses, I have no qualms with Yoshi being above either of them. Mewtwo and Zelda are both garbage... it doesn't take much to be better than them.

I think all you really need to be better than those two is some generic throw combos that work on everyone, a non-dash attack ground move that can beat most of the important aerials, a normal double jump, a decent edgeguard, a decent gimp, a movement speed that's reasonable, and at least one decently-ranged disjointed move. And maybe some gimmick like weighing 9000 lbs despite being the floatiest character ever, or a move that changes direction with lots of funny glitches and bizzare properties on hit, or a projectile that beats moves but takes forever to pull...



.

 

[choknater]

great post by the lake.

 

[ShroudedOne]

The Lake always has amazing posts. It's just expected that when you see that he's commented on something, it'll be good.

 

[Winston]

Did they just increase the avatar size limit?? (choknater)

 

[john!]

andre why don't you have negative posts anymore

 

[choknater]

yes 125 x 125 on avatars now

john: they changed it back on my birthday. i don't really know the reason, it just happened on my birthday.

 

[The Star King]

I would rather have the negative posts count. That's like an anti-present.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How did you get the negative post count anyway?

 

[Strife]

If leffen actually has developed a much better movement game and managed to find ways to mitigate or remove Yoshi's weaknesses, I have no qualms with Yoshi being above either of them. Mewtwo and Zelda are both garbage... it doesn't take much to be better than them.

.

After watching Cosmo get 2nd place with Zelda at 1+ tourney earlier this year, I just can't agree that Zelda is garbage.

In theory it seems like her bair/fair camping should be easy to beat, but watching his videos kinda proves that it isn't. It's kinda like Puff bair camping, yeah it's predictable and slow but it's difficult to counter. And yes while Puff's bair is faster and she has greater air mobility, Zelda's bair/fair is several times stronger and can be used while the opponent is in front or back of her so I think it kinda evens out.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Watch the grand finals of that very same tournament and you'll see why Zelda is a bad character.

 

[Strife]

All the GFs really prove is that Darkrain is a much better player than Cosmo, something no one would debate. Watch the winners finals of that same tournament and see what Darkrain does to Andale, that doesn't make Puff a bad character in the least.

 

[leffen]

Zelda worked good because Cosmo is a by far better player in the matchups he won (esp vs Kels LOL) + noone had any experience.

I hate it when people take wins for the character being better, not the player being better ;o.

 

[Strife]

I remember Cosmo saying he had little to no experience against Samus in that match up, and yet he beat both IHSB and Rat at that tourney. Moreover a lot of the people he beat Like MattR and Darktama are people who Cosmo plays fairly often, and he is STILL beating them. After having around a dozen tourney sets since 2010 I think it's dumb to say that Kels is clueless in the matchup.

Basically I hate it when people discredit a character by saying that the win was based solely on the player, and not the character. It's really insulting to all of the people who Cosmo beat.

 

[Divinokage]

What the hell are you talking about? Are you seriously trying to reverse the argument when it doesn't work? There's only certain players that can use certain characters, that's called affinity to a character. Unlocking that character's potential is all about style and feel to it. I don't want to hear character johns. Because like I said a long time ago, no character johns only destruction!

 

[TheLake]

Cosmo practices against samus all the time lol

Everyone in regards to low tiers

are morons

everyone has this stupid image in their head

that bad characters should not beat good characters

and that the only reason why they win if

A.) The person they fought has no experience and is a noob

B.) This person screwed up and the bad player user doesnt deserve squat

its so weak

kels plays cosmo alot

cosmo won

End of the story

This game gets so political its sickening


the thing with low tiers is

playing against high level players

is easy

cause we got nothing to lose

but all that other junk....semi pros, noobs, etc.

thats the rough patch

so the fact that cosmo

can get to grand finals

ANYWHERE

with a character that is so subjectively limited

that you can define through one word (Kick)

can still climb from losers

at an event with over 30 pepole

is beyond legit

he timed somone out with her lol

wtf

thats the best match!

ever!

how do you time out somone with a character that LITERALLY cant camp?!

against somone who in every way can?!

Cosmo fo liiiife

the haters can just get curbed stomped into a rattlesnake nest

SO this goes for not just zelda but any character

If you cant do it

stfu

if you havent used zelda in a competitive environment

stfu with all the theory craft mumbo jumbo

dont insult the pepole who lose to her

cause everyone can

and everyone will >:D

 

[KirbyKaze]

A few things you should considered about your "Zelda isn't really that bad because of SMYM12 results!" are that:

Cosmo didn't have to play Kels because Kels played like crap and got eliminated by CK and Chexr or something. Kels usually beats Cosmo. I think Kels has lost one set to that Zelda in tournament period and won literally every other time.

Darkatma only started being considered a high level player after his Genesis 2 performance so your argument on that one is weak. As for Matt R... he should not have tried to cheese Cosmo with his Sheik in the first game (because he got ***** in a ditto; he clearly does not play Sheik anymore) and the second game could have been won if he was a bit smarter about how he was gonna rack up damage on her to prevent himself from losing the time out. If he stopped trying to up smash Zelda's shield and dash dance > grab > grab attack > b-throw > laser on him (does about 15% and he lost by 8%) he probably could have gone to a third game.

I'm not trying to discredit Cosmo because his spacing his great and he has to have solid skill in order to take advantage of some of these situations as they are presented to him, but I think even he'll admit that he benefits a lot from some of the "questionable" choices a few of his opponents make in those important situations. It is also worth noting that he almost makes a point of refusing to do the Sheik MU because he considers it a joke and pretty much impossible to win in.

As for him versus the Samus players, Samus is very hard to play against goofy characters with more range than her (see: Ganon, Zelda, Puff, etc). Seriously. Zelda is legitimately a very troublesome MU for her (so much Samus does can just be mindlessly kicked oos). Zelda can do pretty much what she always does (kick, f-smash, shield, etc) and it's how she's supposed to play the MU; Samus's game is shrunk down to a very small selection of moves because she sucks at going through Zelda's block and doing anything remotely laggy risks being jumped over and kicked (or outspaced with kick).

I'm not saying it's a horrible MU beyond repair. It's probably fair at top level if both players know it. But if neither player had any experience in it, I would expect Zelda to be the one that benefits from it because her standard game works on the whole. Samus is the one that needs to make all the adjustments. It's kind of like ICs vs Ganon. It's not that bad for ICs or anything, but Ganon can just flail around with his limbs and do what he normally does. ICs are the ones that need to adjust for his range, heavy stun, rearrange their spacing to compensate for all this, etc. Even though the MU is okay, the learning curve for them is higher.


.

 

[john!]

i think people shouldn't talk about low tiers AT ALL unless they play them (or play against them) on a semi-frequent basis

no matter how good someone thinks they are at "theorycrafting", they can't judge a character unless they know PERSONALLY from experience what that character can and cannot do

just listen to the people who actually use the characters in question instead of trying to interject uninformed opinions.

i ****ing hate theorycrafters who think they can just figure out a matchup through their raw mental brilliance when they haven't even played it before

this game is too complex for that kind of ****

 

[TheLake]

A few things you should considered about your "Zelda isn't really that bad because of SMYM12 results!" are that:

Cosmo didn't have to play Kels because Kels played like crap and got eliminated by CK and Chexr or something. Kels usually beats Cosmo. I think Kels has lost one set to that Zelda in tournament period and won literally every other time.

Darkatma only started being considered a high level player after his Genesis 2 performance so your argument on that one is weak. As for Matt R... he should not have tried to cheese Cosmo with his Sheik in the first game (because he got ***** in a ditto; he clearly does not play Sheik anymore) and the second game could have been won if he was a bit smarter about how he was gonna rack up damage on her to prevent himself from losing the time out. If he stopped trying to up smash Zelda's shield and dash dance > grab > grab attack > b-throw > laser on him (does about 15% and he lost by 8%) he probably could have gone to a third game.

I'm not trying to discredit Cosmo because his spacing his great and he has to have solid skill in order to take advantage of some of these situations as they are presented to him, but I think even he'll admit that he benefits a lot from some of the "questionable" choices a few of his opponents make in those important situations. It is also worth noting that he almost makes a point of refusing to do the Sheik MU because he considers it a joke and pretty much impossible to win in.

As for him versus the Samus players, Samus is very hard to play against goofy characters with more range than her (see: Ganon, Zelda, Puff, etc). Seriously. Zelda is legitimately a very troublesome MU for her (so much Samus does can just be mindlessly kicked oos). Zelda can do pretty much what she always does (kick, f-smash, shield, etc) and it's how she's supposed to play the MU; Samus's game is shrunk down to a very small selection of moves because she sucks at going through Zelda's block and doing anything remotely laggy risks being jumped over and kicked (or outspaced with kick).

I'm not saying it's a horrible MU beyond repair. It's probably fair at top level if both players know it. But if neither player had any experience in it, I would expect Zelda to be the one that benefits from it because her standard game works on the whole. Samus is the one that needs to make all the adjustments. It's kind of like ICs vs Ganon. It's not that bad for ICs or anything, but Ganon can just flail around with his limbs and do what he normally does. ICs are the ones that need to adjust for his range, heavy stun, rearrange their spacing to compensate for all this, etc. Even though the MU is okay, the learning curve for them is higher.


.

lol my favorite quote from any player

Well its funny cause that's EXACTLY what your doing

Lets analyze every match over every set ever

regarding any low tier

or any character actually lol

and theory craft of what SHOULD have happend!

we can make a tv series out of it

so how bout this

I disagree with kirbykaze on Smash World Forums

Beause I think zelda...

isnt..

that..

.....

...

..

.

bad

 

[ShroudedOne]

I play Zelda kind of often, and I like her, but she does have a lot of glaring weaknesses... I can't see an argument for her being any higher on the tier list, though I take your point about theory crafting...

 

[KirbyKaze]

just listen to the people who actually use the characters in question instead of trying to interject uninformed opinions.

Okay, we'll do it your way:

Cosmo considers Falcon and Sheik horrible **** matchups that are borderline unplayable (or unplayable) in tournament. He makes it a point to use Sheik in those MUs most of the time. I'm guessing he went Zelda vs Darkrain for funsies. He considers Fox a really freaking hard MU too (or did at one point; I'm not sure if his opinion changed).

If you ask Mow and various others, Fox is also horrible. But nobody really listens to Mow anymore. Although, honestly, they probably should (at least when it's regarding Zelda). Fox can camp Zelda in the same way he camps Link on a lot of levels (Dreamland is a big one). You really can play to not be hit in that MU on some stages.

So if a character is riddled with a bunch of MUs considered unplayable in tournament by that character's top player, can that character really be very good...?


.

 

[john!]

So if a character is riddled with a bunch of MUs considered unplayable in tournament by that character's top player, can that character really be very good...?

i guess not? but we should consider the lake's opinions as well.

and if we're going to compare her to mewtwo/ylink/etc. then we should hear from the people who are good at those characters.