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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

Warhawk

Warhawk

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ChivalRuse said:
Actually, Marth controls Ganon really well, and kind of owns the matchup by abusing his speed advantage. He is less able to do that vs Pikachu, and he also has difficulty edgeguarding Pikachu.
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I don't think its that bad and even so of the four of them Ganon probably does the best against Marth. Better than Pikachu and Samus at least.
 
knightpraetor

knightpraetor

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why does ganon do better vs marth than pikachu? Pikachus is hard to kill yet can still get fast kills on marth as long as you're not on dreamland....ganon dies too easily and i don't really think he kills marth that much better than pikachu. both seem to have similarly good edgeguarding on marth offstage as well.

Pikachu works harder for his low percent damage though. However, when you live that long can't you afford to?

to be honest i've played a lot more vs ganon than vs pikachu, but when I do play pikachu I find that even though the pikachu isn't hitting me that often the sheer length of his life allows him to keep up and he never has problems putting away the kill vs marth.

Also, I don't really think marth owns ganon except on the big stages...Everyone makes a big deal about how ganon has to commit so hard when he jumps, but on the small stages you only need to jump once while at risk of whiffing...the 2nd time they shouldn't have enough room to dodge

I admit that ganon seems free when offstage, but marth would be pretty free too if more ganons knew how to edgeguard rather than taking the ledge having their invuln run out and then watching as marth gets the ledge for free

also people act as if ganon has to just jump in and commit..spaced bair is really good vs marth...ganon can camp marth with bair to get the marth to space around it and then ganon approaches.

ganon doesn't have to spam fair towards a marth like a scrub
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

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Actually, the only stage Marth can really own Ganon is either on Yoshi's or FD, other than that all the other stages Ganon does much better overall.. though Yoshi's can do either way still. I don't think no one has mentioned this before but Ganon can combo floaties pretty well with downthrow to Nair as examples or even a grounded move. Floaties vs Ganon = it's usually much easier to put them above you which is what you want obviously. He can right off the bat use the momentum for combos that he normally can't vs FFers.

You definitely can't just camp with Bair, if you whiff once, Marth definitely has enough time to counter-attack with his aerial. You have to be precise with every hit and make sure to commit only when you need to. You need to use your shield to force approaches at times and then you can throw a uair OOS to punish a rising Fair for example. You absolutely need to play grounded in general and be at a range where Marth has a tough time to dash-dance.. you can also downtilt as a poke and also use CC to Downtilt or ftilt/jab as counter-attacks again. You should never attack unless you are close enough and also where Marth's options are limited. I guess a little bit of wavelanding in there too is decent... it's kinda tough to explain, you have to call the shots a lot of the times.
 
john!

john!

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Divinokage said:
Going outside your comfort zone and into the unknown is what everyone should be doing. It's by not being able to understand something that you'll learn to adapt and become a bit greater from that experience once you actually have the skill to understand it. If not then you'll stay in your zone about what you think you know and you'll never grow that way. How can you know so much about anything if you haven't tried yourself? You can cite all the stuff you read, i dont care.. It should not mean anything to you unless you have internalized it yourself.
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this was a great post, your posts should have more of this and less of the vague quixotic possibly drug-induced eastern philosophical ****
 
Warhawk

Warhawk

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Marth: better vs Fox, Puff, Falcon, and wins the head to head.
Peach: better vs ICs. May be equally or negligibly better vs Sheik and Falco.

Have a difficult time seeing Peach > Marth unless you can convince me my opinions on the two characters' matchups are off.
 
JPOBS

JPOBS

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Peach being better vs falco and sheik is actually VERY important and shouldnt be overlooked. Especially falco since he;s the best char in the game.

Fox is fraudulent as hell. Marth being better vs fox counts for nothing cuz fox is the most overrated character on the tierlist. When was the last time fox won anything? fake theorycrafting shine BS imo.
 
leffen

leffen

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Falco is worse against Marth according to many, (including me and armada) and the Sheik matchup is also debatable (just as bad for both imo).

Marth does WAY better against puff, fox, and falcon.


Also Fox won FC, so dont give me that bull****.
 
Warhawk

Warhawk

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Peach is really not that much better against Sheik than Marth is if she even is at all. The Fox matchup is also just as important as the Falco matchup is and between Marth and Peach the difference in Marths favor for the Fox matchup is considerably greater than the difference in Peach's favor for the Falco matchup (if there even is a difference is how well they do against Falco).
 
DerfMidWest

DerfMidWest

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Slippi.gg
SOFA#941
I could see puff being bellow peach.
Or at least tied.

S tier:
1. Fox/Falco
2. Sheik

A tier:
3. Marth
4. Peach/Puff

Then falcon goes to B tier with the ICs.
 
knightpraetor

knightpraetor

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wish there were more matches of kage vs a marth. anyone have any vids? what he's describing doesn't sound like any matches of him i've seen but i've barely seen him play vs marth except vs m2k which rarely makes good demo videos

i don't really think peach loses the head to head with marth, it seems really even...definitely agree that marth has it easier vs both fox and falcon though. peach has it easier vs ICs and sheik...sheik can combo both marth and peach with similar stuff but peach doesn't die from it very easily.

peach has a much better time edgeguarding sheik because she can float offstage and force an early poof with minimal lag so that she can get back on stage and punish... many times marth can't threaten to bair sheik offstage and still be back on the ledge to force the poof on stage.

marth combos sheik better....but since peach finishes easily i would honestly think these factors even each other out, so I would give peach the edge just from the ability to live longer and edgeguard better

Honestly I kind of suck at this game so my opinion probably isn't right, but I think it's telling when I do better with peach vs sheik even when i have far more experience with marth...it just feels easier...i can even misDI combos and still not die..i just eat 20% extra where marth would just instantly die for being bad and DIing wrong. At the very least, regardless of matchup odds, peach vs sheik is far more forgiving.
 
knightpraetor

knightpraetor

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i'm fine with everyone's opinions as i've concluded that matchup arguing is useless outside of understanding why people like/dislike certain matchups.

wake, what makes sheik difficult for peach, and how do you go about dealing with some of the problems...1 paragraph of useful information for my peach gogogo

just pm me if you don't want to post here. I just want some more tips vs sheik
 
Tero.

Tero.

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How would Peach do better against Falco than Marth?
I mean both have easy edgeguards, cg and a good combo game (well, almost everybody has against Falco).
Imo whats really important is how to deal with laser and preassure.
Peach obv has a float, while Marth has a low crouch and is faster (on the ground, in the air and out of shield).
Both characters have the Tools to deal with Falco preassure. For Peach I'd say that would be her Nair (like fc oos) and her dsmash while Marth has counter (often overlooked! Its really good vs Laser and as a defensiv option against careless falcos) and very good oos options like grab, fair oos or just wd oos.

Peach also dies earlier than in most of her other MUs (excluding Fox or a rest happy puff). Marth is about the same, probably even lives longer than against the other viable characters.

I can see Marth doing better, but not Peach. I'd say they're about the same.

Falco ***** them tho, cause he ***** everyone with pewpew and comboes and bird stuff and shine and you know what.

:phone:
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

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knightpraetor said:
wish there were more matches of kage vs a marth. anyone have any vids? what he's describing doesn't sound like any matches of him i've seen but i've barely seen him play vs marth except vs m2k which rarely makes good demo videos
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The main problem with that is there are no Marth's = my level in the US and M2k will not risk taking Marth vs me either.. he'll obviously go Sheik. So with that said, he's probably the only one who can do it.

Warhawk said:
Wouldn't have guessed that Kage would be the one to start to turn this thread around with a very solid post lol.
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I have lots of crazy ideas, some of them turn out to be true.. and when they do, it can allow you to do things you'd normally think would be impossible or outside of your conception. ;)
 
Archangel

Archangel

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Why don't we just start a poll of all of this just so we can get an idea of what everyone thinks without the same run around conversations with different people?

Poll 1: Fox or Falco

Poll 2: Marth or Peach

Poll 3: Falcon or Peach

Poll 4: Falcon or Marth

Poll 5: Japanese Women or Korean Women?


you get the point...
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

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[COLLAPSE="Marth and Peach"]Yay, Marth/Peach.

In terms of MUs:

Marth does better vs Fox (literally trillions and trillions of people play Fox, so this is still important), Falcon (slightly), Puff, and he does better vs Marth than Peach does, imo.

Peach might be slightly better than Marth at Falco, cause she can handle him better on not-FD stages, and Falco HAS to respect her float, so lasers mean less. I actually think Falco edgeguards them both brutally (yeah, Falco's FJ is really really high, and forces her to respect him so much more when she's offstage, and she often has to recover low, to the ledge, which is very bad for her, since she has no ledge options). I actually think that Peach has better combos on Falco than most of the cast, though, that are a lot trickier to DI out of. And again, float.

Peach is slightly better vs Sheik, imo, only because she edgeguards Sheik fairly well (not as well as Sheik edgeguards her, but better than how Marth does it). And I think Marth gets edgeguarded harder, but maybe it's the same. Marth has it easier in the neutral, but the nature of his character and his hitboxes makes it a bit more gruesome for him to get hit/grabbed/touched by Sheik than Peach. It's harder for him to get down. Sheik pretty much poops on both of them, though.

Peach is clearly better vs ICs, and probably Doc too. After that, it doesn't matter.

In terms of character strengths:

There are three BIG things that Peach has that Marth doesn't, imo, which might make the difference.
1) She has a vastly better recovery
2) She has a much better shield/OOS game, which is showing to be VERY important now
3) She has a better combo break/momentum shift (floating out of combos, nairing, tech in place > downsmash)

She also handles shields better than he does, and doesn't suffer as much from being hit into the air.

Over her, Marth has:
1) Range. Discount his range all you want, but this is extremely important when comparing him to a character who has an effective range of zero (she's too slow to do the Fox thing, by compensating with run speed, and she doesn't have Falco's gun, or really long limbs (Falcon, Puff, Sheik). The only range she has comes from a turnip that closes off her really good ground game when pulled, and forces her to commit to an action.

2) Marth boasts a much better ability to abuse positional advantage than she does, which is also showing itself to be more important. Being above Peach and not in hitstun is far less worrying than being above Marth and not in hitstun, due to his huge hitboxes (and not having a terribly DJ that inhibits aerial follows). Remember, I'm saying not in hitstun (Peach uair combos are still really vicious, obviously).

3) Mobility. I don't have too much to say about this, but Marth is very mobile, and in general, Peach isn't. She doesn't boast control of large spaces like he does, with his range/WD/DD, and he techchases/follows a lot better. In a lot of cases, you can just roll away from Peach, and she can't chase you (though you may end up with less stage, which still sucks, ofc). There's no such thing as rolling away as a general option vs Marth.

At this moment, Peach certainly seems stronger, but to be honest, I think he edges her out slightly, still.[/COLLAPSE]
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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Peach is required to play from her shield while marth is quite good at saying out of his. The act of shielding limits your options, so in many cases being out of your shield is better than being in (and having the option to stay out of your shield). Marth's OoS isn't that bad, either. He has the best back roll in the game and the longest grab range outside of the links/samus. He also has a better WD OoS. The only real advantage peach has on marth is being able to nair out of shield pressure.

I would argue that marth's combo break is quite good as well. Lots of characters use positional advantage to make up for slight breaks in hitstun. For example, falcon uses his uair priority and speed to make combos happen that don't true combo with hitstun. Marth can DI in such a way that he can fair where other characters (including peach) don't have enough priority or DI to escape. Peach is a little heavier and floatier, so she gets combod by things a little less, such as with fox's uair. These things change match-ups, but I don't really see it having that much of an impact. She still has a hard time coming down, and double jump + float is a big resource dump; if she gets hit after doing that, her recovery options are limited to DIing and upb.
 
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