Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Divinokage]

Ganon above Samus.. why not? He has at least equal enough potential to place just as well as the best Samus. And also his match-ups in general aren't that bad.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'd say I'm just trying to start **** but that wouldn't be really accurate.

More that I'm trying to start discussion on these positions? I know I've heard plenty of talk about Falcon and Ganon being overrated, so I kind of want to see more in-depth thoughts on the matter.

I just don't like Falcon because he does like the same things Sheik does, but gets hype for it while Sheik gets booed out of the tournament for it. Which is much more of an issue of peeves.

So yeah, I just want to see some actual discussion going on about them since they rarely get talked about but often get hyped.

 

[RFrizzle]

Cry about it. He is a much different character than shiek. Just because they can both dthrow fair and tech chase does not mean they do the same things.

 

[Divinokage]

I find it really hard to determine especially because other people have said to me stuff like.. I'm a great player but then I use Ganon so I can't win or something. If I had used another char when I started playing could I have done even better or worse? There's so many factors that I really don't know.. But because I love Ganon very much I guess that allowed me to unlock secret potentials with him and it also allowed me to place well overall. I'm not sure if I could with other chars even if I am trying to train alternate characters right now, I'm still not able to get similar results..

 

[Stylez]

Poll 1: Fox or Falco

Poll 2: Marth or Peach

Poll 3: Falcon or Peach

Poll 4: Falcon or Marth

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fox
Marth probably
Peach
Marth

 

[Divinokage]

Falco
Marth
Falcon
Falcon

 

[JPOBS]

I'd say I'm just trying to start **** but that wouldn't be really accurate.

More that I'm trying to start discussion on these positions? I know I've heard plenty of talk about Falcon and Ganon being overrated, so I kind of want to see more in-depth thoughts on the matter.

I just don't like Falcon because he does like the same things Sheik does, but gets hype for it while Sheik gets booed out of the tournament for it. Which is much more of an issue of peeves.

So yeah, I just want to see some actual discussion going on about them since they rarely get talked about but often get hyped.

Is this a joke? Falcon and sheik are nothing a like. Downthrow -> fair =/= falcon and sheik being the same.

Marth > peach....
Why is this even a thing?

Puff is bad, btw.

heaven forbid people actually think on their own instead of simply accepting the status quo

Peach is required to play from her shield while marth is quite good at saying out of his. The act of shielding limits your options, so in many cases being out of your shield is better than being in (and having the option to stay out of your shield). Marth's OoS isn't that bad, either. He has the best back roll in the game and the longest grab range outside of the links/samus. He also has a better WD OoS. The only real advantage peach has on marth is being able to nair out of shield pressure.
.

I don't think it's fair to generalize that sheilding = bad, because different characters have different traits. I know that's not what you said precisely, but i just wanted to make a point. If going into shield a lot gives a character certain advantages, that shouldn't be considered a negative just because other characters are weak in shield.

hopefully you understand what im getting at.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I was thinking more about D-throw->Auto-combos, easy modo tech chases, and fast dash dance to facilitate those tech chases as well as get nearly identical baits.

Many characters are more similar than I'd like to admit, but aside from all the things that make Sheik better than Falcon, they have more than comparable qualities. Hence Falcon being a proletariat Sheik for doing the same things, only lesser.

I can admit their obvious differences, mind you. They both deal with shields in quite different ways, and that is a pretty significant difference. I'm not ignoring their differences, just describing that there is more similarity than would seem obvious.

 

[Tarv]

Not sure if anybody cares but here's my top 12. Complete without data, explanations, or any reasonings what so ever (yay). Just your chance to see a tier list from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about:

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Jigglypuff
5. Marth
6. Peach
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Samus
10. Dr. Mario
11. Ganondorf
12. Pikachu


As for the poll (just my opinion):
- I honestly think Falco wins the MU, but Fox > Falco in general
- Marth has a slight advantage against Peach (Might be even). Marth >= Peach in general (but only by a little bit)
- Peach wins the MU. Peach > captain falcon in general
- Marth wins the MU (Still a fairly close match) Marth > Captain Falcon in general

 

[God with a Wavebird]

I'd say I'm just trying to start **** but that wouldn't be really accurate.

More that I'm trying to start discussion on these positions? I know I've heard plenty of talk about Falcon and Ganon being overrated, so I kind of want to see more in-depth thoughts on the matter.

I just don't like Falcon because he does like the same things Sheik does, but gets hype for it while Sheik gets booed out of the tournament for it. Which is much more of an issue of peeves.

So yeah, I just want to see some actual discussion going on about them since they rarely get talked about but often get hyped.

Falcon is not like Sheik. Sheik wins by spacing tilts, auto-comboing or tech chasing the opponent off the stage, and edgeguarding. Falcon's tilts are bad, and he doesn't have easy auto-combos, and his edgeguarding is awful.
They both tech chase space animals though. I'll give you that.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Falcon is full of auto combos. D-throw-> Anything; Dair->Anything; any of the huge number of things that link easily into fair; Uair uair uair OOOOair.

Falcon does have awful edgeguarding. And several other things worse than Sheik. His game vs Shield is one thing, for example, that is qualifiably different, not quantifiably worse, than, Sheik. I can't think of anything else he has that isn't outright worse than Sheik's, but that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others like how the longer length of his slower dash dance make some difference in what can be baited, but nothing that stands out as like totally different in premise.

 

[RFrizzle]

Every good character has a number of simple combos. It's really not that crazy.

 

[Purpletuce]

Ah, the entire Sheik metagame summarized in a sentence. Why doesn't everyone do this, just simply win by following those instructions?

Poll:
Fox
Marth
Falcon
Marth

^very loose speculation, I don't play any of these characters.

One problem with this discussion is that people come in from different viewpoints, and different of levels of play that they are accustomed to, as well as different levels of play that they are referencing.

Ex: Fox v. Jiggs.
Casual: You can just swallow them and spit the off to win!
New player: Fox is too hard to control, you'll just SD too much, Jiggs is much more reliable.
Player good on a local scene: Fox is so fast, you never need to get hit!
Player decent at a state scene: Jigglypuff can rest Fox so easy! U-throw rest is so easy!
Player good at state scene: U-throw U-air, Puff is too easy.
(Not qualified to say how a regional/national/worldwide scene) seems to balance out at upper levels of play.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Every good character has a number of simple combos. It's really not that crazy.

Most of them don't have a 70 frame window from which to read DI/input a followup.

Also tuce, the "casual" comment had me crying with laughter.

 

[Ripple]

I wish we had another doubles tier list

 

[Divinokage]

Ohh that I can help make for sure. =D

Though you would have to give me the standard for it. Do you want only a single character tier list for doubles.. or a team combination list like Fox/Jiggs.. then Fox/Falco.. etc.

 

[Twinkles]

Shiek and Falcon are possibly similar if you break their characters down to bare bone, but once you get to that level, really what makes them different from any other top/high tier or any character for that matter? They're both different in an incredible number of ways, small at first glance but they add up.

IMO Falcon plays kinda like Shiek in the same way Falcon kinda plays like Fox or Falco. If you wanna talk about a character that's like Falcon but better in almost every way, I'd actually talk about Falco. Even then though, it's a stretch I think.

 

[knightpraetor]

"Most of them don't have a 70 frame window from which to read DI/input a followup."

as you get better combos more and more fail to impress. Sure sheik's auto-combos are easier than most of the casts, but since all of the auto-combos are so ridiculously automatic, what does it matter if sheik has a few extra frames to get it off?

these days the only impressive combos are percent specific or non-guaranteed combos that require a read on the opponent to get off due to there being insufficient reaction time in which to begin the next option.

Other than random creative stuff, the vast majority of combos these days don't do anything for me..whether they are by sheik, falcon or marth.

i miss the old days when i watched combo video after combo video in utter awe. Now I watch a new marth combo video and just study the percent and the setup and think..yeah that's probably pretty good there. how does it stack up against what i usually use in that situation.

anyway my point is that difficulty of character is not equal to the difficulty of their combos..the vast majority of combos are free once you reach any decent level, so usually people are impressed by falcon because they know how difficult he is to play and get his openers while in neutral.

Also, falcon adds a certain tension to the match that is missing in other matchups because of the sheer difficulty falcon has in getting a grab setup. Thus, everyone in the crowd holds their breath as the techchase starts, knowing that the sequence of reads here will have a huge influence on the outcome of the match as a whole. Falcon has kind of high variance in his techchases, and while not a desirable quality by someone wanting to win nationals, it's something that the audience thrives on.

 

[Divinokage]

Well ya obviously.. when your mind cannot understand something, it can very usually be viewed as a miracle.

 

[Ripple]

single characters Kage.

combinations would be FAR too hard

 

[Purpletuce]

over 600 possible teams. . . single characters for doubles would make the most sense. Also, I'm, glad you liked my comment Kink-Link

 

[john!]

"your doubles tier list is total bull****, there's no way mewtwo/doc is better than roy/link"

 

[Blistering Speed]

I wish we had another doubles tier list

SS
Fox.

S
Puff.

A
Peach / Falco.
Sheik / Falcon.
Marth.

Beyond that, there's weird stuff that's explored solely by outliers e.g. Pikachu, Ganon.

 

[KingofCereal]

There are too many combinations for an accurate and complete list, but I think if you focused on the common ones it would be much more interesting than a single character teams tier list. Double Bowser is way better than Bowser would be on that list by himself (or way worse, I actually don't know anything).
This would be so cool, but so difficult to compile. How do you determine if Sheik/Marth is better than Falco/Falco?

 

[unknown522]

Peach is definitely not better vs doc than marth

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The process of defining a single character teams tier list necessarily requires the consideration of the combinations.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Can't we just agree that 8x giant ice climbers on FoD is the only doubles matchup worth looking at?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Peach is definitely not better vs doc than marth

You don't think so? I've always though that Doc could work a smart shield game vs Marth and do well, but that Peach was just harder to deal with, due to her long lasting hitboxes, beating/trading with a lot of his moves, and being good vs pills. I think she's better vs them than he is. Care to elaborate, though?

Peach is required to play from her shield while marth is quite good at saying out of his. The act of shielding limits your options, so in many cases being out of your shield is better than being in (and having the option to stay out of your shield). Marth's OoS isn't that bad, either. He has the best back roll in the game and the longest grab range outside of the links/samus. He also has a better WD OoS. The only real advantage peach has on marth is being able to nair out of shield pressure.

I would argue that marth's combo break is quite good as well. Lots of characters use positional advantage to make up for slight breaks in hitstun. For example, falcon uses his uair priority and speed to make combos happen that don't true combo with hitstun. Marth can DI in such a way that he can fair where other characters (including peach) don't have enough priority or DI to escape. Peach is a little heavier and floatier, so she gets combod by things a little less, such as with fox's uair. These things change match-ups, but I don't really see it having that much of an impact. She still has a hard time coming down, and double jump + float is a big resource dump; if she gets hit after doing that, her recovery options are limited to DIing and upb.

Yeah, ok, I agree with most of this. But Marth's shield is a lot smaller than hers (I know, angling is a thing, but in general, she'll get poked less), and that gives her the option to hold shield out a little more, so she can wait that extra bit for sniffing out the right opening. And I think her upB OoS is really good at breaking up pressure.

 

[Max?]

Peach is definitely not better vs doc than marth

I think she is. Doc vs. Marth pretty close to even.


Every time I read this thread, I'm reminded of why I hate the melee scene

 

[Purpletuce]

^ Not sure the purpose of the post. . . for that matter, not sure the purpose of that kind of post you make, where you complain, don't communicate with anyone and don't create any discussion. I know you as the guy who makes posts complaining about this thread and never tries to help, further causing the problem. I'm not saying you only make useless posts, I'm just saying that is all, I can re,member you making. . .

Why is that?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Because he plays doc.

 

[john!]

IIRC max is the guy who thinks doing hard drugs gives you special knowledge about the universe

so what i'm trying to say is that he probably has his reasons and we'll never understand them

because we aren't in tune with the cosmos

or something

 

[Max?]

IIRC max is the guy who thinks doing hard drugs gives you special knowledge about the universe

so what i'm trying to say is that he probably has his reasons and we'll never understand them

because we aren't in tune with the cosmos

or something

I've done psychedelics probably 4 or 5 times ever, and haven't touched them in 5 years. I think that doing them will open your horizons and perspective, but don't go judging me and acting condescending towards me because of posts I've made in the past.

And Purpletuce, there is no point in discussing things. My entire purpose on this website is to troll. If you met me irl you'd understand. All in all, I'm probably one of the most genuine, out going and fun people to hang out with in this community.

 

[Van.]

i keep waiting for gangstalicious to get arrested

 

[Purpletuce]

I still don't see how when someone does something stupid and follows it up by claiming they were trolling, they expect it to be an excuse. You were doing what you were doing, I don't see how calling it trolling changes anything.

 

[Max?]

Son if you read all my posts, none of them are serious. The reason why I say there is no point to discussing things on this website is because no one really reads or listens to each other, everyone's opinion is different and 99% of the time it's wrong, especially amongst the newer players. Not just that, but the same goddamn conversations have happened time and time again here for the last 6 years. Almost nothing new is being presented, and the same regurgitated topics come up again and again. If you really think I'm being serious, and act like I'm trolling to cover up my own stupidity, then you just don't get it doggie. To my ignore list you go

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've learnt a lot from the discussions I've read here...

 

[knightpraetor]

for every 500 posts, there is that one gem that helps you improve.

 

[Mahone]

Son if you read all my posts, none of them are serious. The reason why I say there is no point to discussing things on this website is because no one really reads or listens to each other, everyone's opinion is different and 99% of the time it's wrong, especially amongst the newer players. Not just that, but the same goddamn conversations have happened time and time again here for the last 6 years. Almost nothing new is being presented, and the same regurgitated topics come up again and again. If you really think I'm being serious, and act like I'm trolling to cover up my own stupidity, then you just don't get it doggie. To my ignore list you go

Wow, what a ***

this is one of the gayest posts ive read in so long

notice the "son" and "doggie", showing how old and wise and cool max is

"everyone's opinion is different and 99% of the time it's wrong" - wow, these wrong opinions, amazing... Of course your falco is broken and unstoppable opinion is just trolling and definitely not wrong or annoying

this new age "trolling", where you have to let everyone know, because you NEED the attention and you need to make sure that no one thinks you're actually stupid... because you don't really care about "trolling", you care about everyone KNOWING that you're "trolling" and therefore KNOWING you are witty and smarter than them

This is a great example of a big fish in a small pond... i'm guessing max is smarter than the average smash player by a pretty significant margin and much better at the game too... and you can tell that he just LOVES that... he gets to act wiser, smarter, and cooler in all of his posts, and then he probably goes on facebook and makes fun of how ******** we all are with niko and pc chris or some ****

CONGRATULATIONS!!! You are better and smarter than a bunch of people who are probably on average like 7 years younger than you in a video game community where the average education level is really not that high

However i can tell from your posts that you are actually not a very smart or wise man at all!

You are just an attention ***** who needs to go back to reddit and needs to stop ruining this website even more!!!!!!!!!

or you can stay and bathe in the filth that you are the biggest contributor to... im sure that irony hasnt got by you, ur too smart for that, you were just "trolling" me as well... well played max!