Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Divinokage]

dude I'm sorry but who beat your marth 2/3??? that's what I thought. yourm arth is a piece of cake.

I seem to remember that I'm the one with the money. You cant beat me in a MM.

 

[cannedbread]

smashboards

Spoiler

at night

 

[Ripple]

I seem to remember that I'm the one with the money. You cant beat me in a MM.

I beat you 2/3 in the hotel room at FC. Need I bring in Pseudo to confirm this?!

 

[Blistering Speed]

Nobody gives a **** about your friendlies and their supposed outcome.

On topic: Peach>Marth would, to me, represent the day the community jumps the shark from critical analysis to uncompromisingly regurgitating tournament representation.

Also, who are these nameless Peach players, outside of Armada, that are constantly brought up as also performing better than Marth players? MacD and Vanz don't cut it.

 

[Armada]

'Underrated' as in 'he should receive a higher placement in the tier list', or as in 'any talk of him moving down is absurd'?

Hard one to answer. I think the last part is true for sure. Marth is clearly better then the chars under him in the tierlist (Don't remember if he still is 5th but thah's what Im talking about).

I also think Marth maybe is better then Shiek. That one is a bit weird for many times feels better but once I start to look at MUs it feels lke Marth does better against the really good chars even if Sheik have more great MUs. So I guess this situations comes to if you think important or most MUs is what should give one of the char the egde over the other one.

I think Marth does a bit better against Fox
Clearly better vs Falco
Clearly better vs Puff
A bit better against ICs
About the same against Peach (a tiny bit better for Sheik I guess)
Clearly worse against CF
Lose by a bit against Sheik

That's my opinion on wich on of Marth/Sheik that have the better MU against the most important chars. But yeah Sheik have way better MU against chars that sometimes is played on really high level like Pika/Doc/Ganon. Well I guess I value spacies/Puff more

 

[DerfMidWest]

I think sheik is clearly better than marth.
Marth has glaring weaknesses... And sheik has less...
Sheik also does better against the rest of the cast.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Rest of the cast hardly matter at this point.

 

[Armada]

Yeah like I said it might be one reason why we have different opinions because I don't think rest of the cast is that important compared to spacies/Puff.

vanir: Is it any of my MUs you disagree with?

 

[Juushichi]

Doesn't Sheik do really awful against ICs, Armada?

Addressing each of the statements with (mostly) questions (because I don't have nearly enough knowledge):
I think Marth does a bit better against Fox [Agree]
Clearly better vs Falco [Isn't the MU roughly the same for both characters? I thought it was 55-45 Falco for both, but I guess Marth would have more reliable ways to kill Falco? KirbyKaze, what do you think?]
Clearly better vs Puff [Probably, I don't know how this MU works for Sheik?]
A bit better against ICs [Don't people talk like Marth kinda scrapes the Climbers?]
About the same against Peach (a tiny bit better for Sheik I guess) [Certain Peach mains seem to think that the Marth MU is pseudo-impossible or something. Idk much about this, but I am sure you have a lot of exp.]
Clearly worse against CF [Agree]
Lose by a bit against Sheik [I thought people said this was closer to 4-6 than 45-55 in Sheik's favor?]

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Marth:ICs at top level is about 55:45 Marth's favour
Sheik:ICs at top level is probably about 45-55 ICs favour at best for Sheik

 

[Armada]

Juushichi: Yeah I guess I maybe should have point that out a bit harder. Feels like Marth is kinda even/bit advantage and Sheik lose by a bit. So the difference is about 10 points or something (Have some experience against ICs cause Smasher89 plays Ic).

I think Marth is doing kinda much better against Falco then Sheik. For me Sheik is loseing, maybe not by a lot but loseing for sure. I think Marths have better punishgame from powershielding lasers because he has better grab range exc. Marth overall has a bit better punishgame on Falco on "perfect human level". The bad thing for Marth that Sheik has is good options OOS (both of them should WD into Falco when he does retreting bair/nair and grab cause it works, at least for Sheik but for Marth to I think).

I don't think Sheik/Marth is that bad for Marth. 55-45 sounds more correct. Sheiks terrible air mobillity makes it a bit hard to actually get inside of Marths range. Sheiks strong ground game and stupid grab makes the MU in her favor for sure but Marth is still not that bad in the MU if you ask me. Maybe PP should add something about the MU cause I heard he played a lot against Over and maybe other sheiks from USA aswell (know it was pal against Over but still).

 

[unknown522]

IMO falco vs marth/sheik are even. Also sheik definitely has the better oos game vs falco because of her n-air and tighter WD oos. They can both systematically 0-death falco off of reaction and edgeguard/gimp for free. Unfortunately, KK seems to be the only sheik player that can combo spacies properly.

Sheik vs marth is 6-4.

 

[Armada]

Yeah I also said Sheik has way better OOS game then Marth. The only thing I said was one thing both of them should use but that dosen't mean Mart has better OOS game.

Well if you ask me it dosen't seems like many Sheik players have good reactions enough to do it but KK is one of the best at it for sure. Well most players I have talked to agree that Marth is harder then Sheik for Falco and I think so too. Also have a lot of experience as Falco against both of the chards and with Marth/Sheik against Falco and it feels better for Marth against Falco and it feels worse for Falco against Marth then Sheik when I play Falco.

Sheik vs Marth maybe is 6-4 but Im not so sure. Why do you think it is 6-4?
6-4 is actually kinda much (maybe not because it seems like people have different opinons on what those numbers actually mean)

 

[DerfMidWest]

I dunno... I think Marth is just more flawed than sheik...
he's obviously an amazing character, but I think sheik is overall better.
Her only glaring flaws are her laggy recovery, her ability to be CC *****, and her high shorthop.
But I feel like sheik has the ability to play around these flaws (with the exception of recovery) due to needles and spacing fairs and stuff.
I dunno, maybe I'm just inexperienced, or maybe you're biased because of PAL sheik, it doesn't really matter.
I see them being even at least even.

 

[unknown522]

@Armada: True. We should have a graded value system for the numbers that everyone can agree on. Something like:

5-5 = obv

55-45 = almost even but barely advantage to 1 char

6-4 = decent advantage

65-35 = solid advantage. May need to consider a secondary, or have a good stage to CP

7-3 = need a secondary. Probably unwinnable at high level or a considerable amount of difference in skill

75-25 = need little effort to win

8-2 unwinnable even at mid-level :/

And so on. Anyways that's just an example. Either that, or the 0-3 grade system:

0 = even

+1/-1 = slight advantage

+2/-2 = solid advantage

+3/-3 = unwinnable



But yeah, I think sheik vs marth is 6-4 because she had more solid tools in the matchup. They both fight each other kind of similarly, but sheik just seems to be stronger in most of the areas they are both good at. She also can get better rewards out of her hits (not always the case ofc due to things like CC, and DI, etc), but usually she can get better combos and edgeguard setups. Marth's lack of a spammable kill move and lack of a reliable 2-step combo at higher percents can really cause problems for ending a stock vs sheik. Theoretically, marth shouldn't be missing edgeguards on sheik, but it happens. Because of this, sheik can end stocks faster than marth way more consistenly. Her edguarding is overall better on him as well. Sheik having a projectile to open up marth especially from above is really good. Also since if needles hit, it combos directly into grab, which is what sheik wants.

Sheik has a better game with the platforms, both for moving and camping. She is also better at close range and probably long-range. Marth ofc is great at mid-range with his DD game and huge sword.

Something really neat though that may get marth out of combos at lower percents is DIing inwards on sheik's d-throw and the SDIing the first hit of her u-tilt.



May add more after I take a shower

 

[Kink-Link5]

Still talking about matchups in terms of ratios like it's 2007. Still talking about "top level" as if it is something so easily quantifiable and definable.

 

[Divinokage]

Of course it is, the game has been out for 10 ****ing years, someone MUST know something. If you doubt every single term then you'll never really grow. It's like never being sure of anything in life, do you have to question everything?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Then I'd like some meaning behind "top play," as it's used by either individuals or as a whole by the community because I can interpret what is the top in at least three different ways.

 

[Shadow Huan]

But yeah, I think sheik vs marth is 6-4 because she had more solid tools in the matchup. They both fight each other kind of similarly, but sheik just seems to be stronger in most of the areas they are both good at. She also can get better rewards out of her hits (not always the case ofc due to things like CC, and DI, etc), but usually she can get better combos and edgeguard setups. Marth's lack of a spammable kill move and lack of a reliable 2-step combo at higher percents can really cause problems for ending a stock vs sheik. Theoretically, marth shouldn't be missing edgeguards on sheik, but it happens. Because of this, sheik can end stocks faster than marth way more consistenly. Her edguarding is overall better on him as well. Sheik having a projectile to open up marth especially from above is really good. Also since if needles hit, it combos directly into grab, which is what sheik wants.

Sheik has a better game with the platforms, both for moving and camping. She is also better at close range and probably long-range. Marth ofc is great at mid-range with his DD game and huge sword.

Something really neat though that may get marth out of combos at lower percents is DIing inwards on sheik's d-throw and the SDIing the first hit of her u-tilt.

i was gonna post something about the MU but you covered my points and then some. lol

 

[unknown522]

Lol

 

[Strong Badam]

DK sucks

That said, Mario sucks even harder.

That said, I don't care what people think of my character anymore.

 

[Max?]

DK definitely sucks more than Mario, but then again, everyone sucks in comparison to Falco.


In fact, this game sucks, and I would **** all of you

 

[Dr Peepee]

Juushichi: Yeah I guess I maybe should have point that out a bit harder. Feels like Marth is kinda even/bit advantage and Sheik lose by a bit. So the difference is about 10 points or something (Have some experience against ICs cause Smasher89 plays Ic).

I think Marth is doing kinda much better against Falco then Sheik. For me Sheik is loseing, maybe not by a lot but loseing for sure. I think Marths have better punishgame from powershielding lasers because he has better grab range exc. Marth overall has a bit better punishgame on Falco on "perfect human level". The bad thing for Marth that Sheik has is good options OOS (both of them should WD into Falco when he does retreting bair/nair and grab cause it works, at least for Sheik but for Marth to I think).

I don't think Sheik/Marth is that bad for Marth. 55-45 sounds more correct. Sheiks terrible air mobillity makes it a bit hard to actually get inside of Marths range. Sheiks strong ground game and stupid grab makes the MU in her favor for sure but Marth is still not that bad in the MU if you ask me. Maybe PP should add something about the MU cause I heard he played a lot against Over and maybe other sheiks from USA aswell (know it was pal against Over but still).

I BEEN SUMMONED DOE

Okay so the best Sheik vs Marth I've played is M2K and we were going even on FD the one friendly we played(someone turned off the tv last stock SADNESS) but that is also Marth's best stage in the matchup probably.

I honestly want to lean closer to 55/45 Sheik in this matchup. My reasoning for this is that Marth gets a huge mobility advantage on the air and on the ground vs Sheik. The better Marth is at abusing that advantage(and maybe throwing in some sword to hit Sheik's limbs), the better he can do in the matchup. Marth struggles vs Sheik because he still has to go in eventually due to needles(if they're charged at least) and Sheik's punishments are more consistent on him at pretty much all percents(Uthrow to Utilt with Marth is hard to consistently get with varying DIs and any hits that Sheik CCs don't combo very well usually.....vs Sheik tilts and grabs that almost always combo[into kill as needed] lol).

They edgeguard each other similarly well or at least not differently enough to make a matchup-determining difference over it(assuming Marth is good at wavelanding onstage into tipper etc).

Marth is better at juggling Sheik than vice versa but it may not matter terribly much since they're both pretty awful when the other is below them lol.

Close-range game is Sheik's favor since her crouch is better than Marth's. This is in terms of what can happen out of the crouch and the crouch itself(lower). Marth prefers to stay at a few very specific ranges usually related to Ftilt(just outside of it or just inside of it mainly) and anything beyond that. If he gets closer than Ftilt range then Sheik's big grab and jabs become a problem Marth doesn't have an answer for outside of spamming CC grab and hoping for the best(won't work at higher percents, and is pretty easy to dash back dash in punish).

That last part is why I could see 60/40. Marth has to excel at staying in a few ranges, but Sheik can't really extend out very much or Marth's mobility-abusing game should catch her and punish her. It's an extremely awkward matchup lol. I believe it works out to 55/45 Sheik's advantage as long as Marth controls his spacing and mobility extremely well. Oh yeah, Sheik also converts off of any poke/hit better than Marth usually. I think I mentioned that before but it's also why I could 60/40. Depends on how much weight you put into things like that. Marth just needs to be amazing at following up Dtilt/Fair lol.



PAL it feels similar because Sheik just has to tech chase Marth instead of get a free hit(she throws him offstage eventually and gets a great edgeguard iirc so it can still work out to a kill just fine).

Probably 55/45 in PAL due to diminished punishes from Sheik, and maybe a chance of it being even but I haven't played it enough to be sure. Marth does lose his gimping spike and some aerial mobility though, so I'm inclined to leave it at 55/45.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Something really neat though that may get marth out of combos at lower percents is DIing inwards on sheik's d-throw and the SDIing the first hit of her u-tilt.

What direction should we SDI for this? Behind? We should be able to fair afterwards, right?

Also: what are Marths options after a Sheik utilt on shield? I ****ing hate that move lol

 

[Zoler]

What direction should we SDI for this? Behind? We should be able to fair afterwards, right?

Also: what are Marths options after a Sheik utilt on shield? I ****ing hate that move lol

Sheik utilt on shield is grabbable between the hits lolz

if shes htitting ur back just wavedash or roll out

 

[Kink-Link5]

if shes htitting ur back just wavedash or roll out

That way she can just run after you with that ******** fast dash.

 

[KirbyKaze]

She can't chase a WD OOS if you do it between the u-tilt hits AFAIK.

 

[Deleted member]

i had a hard time ordering sheik marth and peach, as i consider them all basically equal personally.

ryan there's no way sheik and marth perform the same against falco unless you consider them both losing MUs for the non-falco. falco vs sheik is pretty terrible for a top tier matchup.

 

[leffen]

She can't chase a WD OOS if you do it between the u-tilt hits AFAIK.

While it is a weakness, wdoos/shieldgrab isnt that strong against Utilt since you'd basically have to call her doing the utilt since its too fact to react to (almost, at least).

Doesn't it also leave you + on shield after too? its so good o_o. Definitely one of Sheiks most undervalued moves imo.


I also don't get the whole "sheik gets ***** by falco". Really, where does it come from?


on another note, sheiks combo game on marth is soooo overrated. She gets very little damage of each confirm if you DI properly.

 

[Divinokage]

i had a hard time ordering sheik marth and peach, as i consider them all basically equal personally.

ryan there's no way sheik and marth perform the same against falco unless you consider them both losing MUs for the non-falco. falco vs sheik is pretty terrible for a top tier matchup.

How so? The way I see it is that they can both own each other very hard after landing one hit.

 

[KirbyKaze]

on another note, sheiks combo game on marth is soooo overrated. She gets very little damage of each confirm if you DI properly.

I dunno, uair and regrabs are hard to DI.

Even if she can't do perfect stun combos on Marth, it's not like Marth is really good at being above characters with long legs and high speed...

Regarding people talking about Sheik's u-tilt pressure:

I guess having to do the WD OOS on prediction kind of sucks, but sometimes the opponent can mistime and CC the super duper weak 2nd hit and just punish her anyway (unless she sidesteps or something I guess, but that's kind of a goofy sequence and has a lot of funny predicts in it). The second hit is a super duper weak move at heart, so it has a lot of nifty weaknesses that typical frame advantage exploits don't run into (CCing the shines gets you nowhere, CCing Peach's d-smash and FC aerials usually gets you nowhere).

I find a lot of the important characters can jump to avoid the 'tick grab' after 2nd hit u-tilt. You're rarely going to get the full FA of it anyway, just because using it requires you hit the latest hitbox of it, which means positioning restrictions, etc. You're more likely to break even or be at like -1 or something AFAIK. This opens up a lot of room for mixups, I suppose, but I don't really see how that's drastically superior to her typical stuff, which can be similar as far as FA goes and you get to space a bit more safely too.

It's not really bad, though, and I use it periodically. It's good for catching jumps.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

marth does great against falco. Falco puts up a bit more of a technical barrier for the marth compared to fox, but thats about it. Powershield laser -> wd oos -> dash dance vs just dash dance. I suck at powershielding but I just shield lasers and wd oos and it works alright for me (i prefer fox vs falco myself).

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh, and for posterity's sake, I don't think Sheik vs Falco or Fox are notably bad MUs for top tiers. Said that about a hundred times in here, but might as well say it again while we're on the subject.

 

[unknown522]

i had a hard time ordering sheik marth and peach, as i consider them all basically equal personally.

ryan there's no way sheik and marth perform the same against falco unless you consider them both losing MUs for the non-falco. falco vs sheik is pretty terrible for a top tier matchup.

falco vs sheik is not even bad. I used to think marth wins, but not anymore.

Sheik has sheik has the easiest 0-death game on falco (aside from CGs) and had the speed, priority, range, and oos game to create openings/land hits. It's just that most sheiks are bad at reacting to falco's tech options/getups. But then there's KK who does the combo game proper usually. Aside from when he gets greedy/lazy and loses combos sometimes solely off that. But that has nothing to do with the character.

Falco controls the pace really well, but shouldn't get 0-death combos. But then bad DI happens, so meh

What direction should we SDI for this? Behind? We should be able to fair afterwards,

up and behind. Yeah she can f-air, but at least marth won't be getting super combo'd

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't do the combo correctly =/

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes you do \:

 

[KirbyKaze]

You haven't even played me in that MU except a single match in crews in like 3 years

Get out of here

edit: ******

 

[Dr Peepee]

wow keep it productive kk please

wow

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm feeling insecure about my combos and our recently strained relationship so I'm lashing out

I'm sorry PP

<3

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Lets stay on topic, zelda > mewtwo