Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[cannedbread]

i agree her feet cover basicly all of mewtwo's options

 

[Dr Peepee]

I instantly forgive you! <333

that was at kk not sveet

it's all about m2>zelda(no I don't know)


I wish I knew about Sheik vs Falco but I haven't played KK in forever(more than one game) and M2K just kinda rolls over when I play even decently vs him....I'll get back to the people on that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I agree with cannedbread.

PP I'm gonna teach you how to cook the perfect turkey dinner.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can't even do the combo

 

[KirbyKaze]

Where I'm going I don't need combos

 

[Dr Peepee]

psh yeah okay

as a Falco main I know you need combos to win so I hope you're not gonna be like ken and use mindgames because he sucks and couldn't even win on reality tv after he quit

 

[odinNJ]

The way i like to think of the m2 zelda matchups is, whats he gonna do to her, punish wiffed fairs bairs, with what, a grab . no, def in zeldas favor, the fact of the matter is that if she out spaces him, she wins. not that this matchup matters at all. i just like debating low tiers XD

 

[KirbyKaze]

PP, my precious shnookie-wookums

You'll just have to wait and see

 

[knightpraetor]

I BEEN SUMMONED DOE

They edgeguard each other similarly well or at least not differently enough to make a matchup-determining difference over it(assuming Marth is good at wavelanding onstage into tipper etc).

after thinking about it, I agree and disagree with this. If edgeguarding is just covering the spots when sheik is far out and limited in her teleport options then yeah, the edgeguarding is even as long as marth always tips...pretty freaking hard compared to sheiks auto edgeguard, but even.... But if edgeguarding includes gimping, then sheik has vastly better options for getting marth off a bthrow then marth has for gimping sheik off dthrow..

 

[KirbyKaze]

But if edgeguarding includes gimping, then sheik has vastly better options for getting marth off a bthrow then marth has for gimping sheik off dthrow..

what

no, really, what

 

[DerfMidWest]

I think he's saying sheik ***** and marf is dumb

 

[KirbyKaze]

I know what he's saying

That's not why I said "what"

 

[ShroudedOne]

psh yeah okay

as a Falco main I know you need combos to win so I hope you're not gonna be like ken and use mindgames because he sucks and couldn't even win on reality tv after he quit

Just because he didn't want to spend his life playing a video game made for kids, and wanted to move up in the world, to the realm of reality TV, you have to be a hater.

Tsk tsk, Kevin.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Remember when ken tripped?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sakurai sure did.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Part of me thinks that tripping is meant mainly to police CGing tbh

But all the good Brawl CGs (minus DD's) involve walking AFAIK so it didn't even work

 

[john!]

IIRC dedede can actually stand still and regrab certain characters without moving

man that game is a piece of work

 

[Kink-Link5]

Tripping was, in all likelihood, an attempt to dissuade against dashing as the go-to form of movement and emphasise the use of walking. No shield during dash, no dash canceling, no momentum from a dash jump, no JC grabs out of dashing, tripping only occurring when dashing/C-stick F-smashing, all while giving walking better initial velocity on the whole.

All of these sans the walking buff were, of course, terrible ways to go about deemphasizing dashing, but they all do seem to point toward that as the intended purpose.

 

[knightpraetor]

wait KK, you really think marth gets more off a single dthrow on sheik then sheik gets when she throws marth off stage? how do you figure that?? nothing other than take the ledge is remotely safe for marth for punishing sheik when she recovers from the dthrow. maybe I'm not doing something I'm supposed to when recovering after being thrown off stage... are you saying that nothing bad should happen to me when i get bthrown? i assume you mean if I DI in the throw, as DIing out would place me even farther away and anyone could edgeguard marth after he Di's the bthrow wrong.

I feel like sheik can threaten to take the ledge early and if she gets it marth is dead. If she is wrong she eats an up B but it won't even be under the stage so she wont' get stagespiked. she also has needle options.

and once marth starts up Bing high if he's wrong he should eat a good bit more than a low percent fsmash.

both marth and sheik seem to be dealing equivalent damage, but the chance of marth dying during the exchange seems a lot higher. How would sheik end up dead? I feel like the only time that happens is if the sheik jumps into marth's dair. But I tested that to death and sheik has multiple timings she can jump at off the throw..so a patient sheik shouldn't be getting spiked that much.

also at low percents sheik has wall jump options to keep marth out and then up b with a high teleport out of range.

edit: maybe that unsafe stuff is safer than i think? I always see marths getting screwed for running off though when the sheik just starts her teleport really early

 

[Kink-Link5]

There are many unsafe things that frame trap and give your character basically confirmed consecutive hits because the opponent doesn't have anything fast enough to retaliate.

 

[KirbyKaze]

wait KK, you really think marth gets more off a single dthrow on sheik then sheik gets when she throws marth off stage? how do you figure that?? nothing other than take the ledge is remotely safe for marth for punishing sheik when she recovers from the dthrow. maybe I'm not doing something I'm supposed to when recovering after being thrown off stage... are you saying that nothing bad should happen to me when i get bthrown? i assume you mean if I DI in the throw, as DIing out would place me even farther away and anyone could edgeguard marth after he Di's the bthrow wrong.

I feel like sheik can threaten to take the ledge early and if she gets it marth is dead. If she is wrong she eats an up B but it won't even be under the stage so she wont' get stagespiked. she also has needle options.

and once marth starts up Bing high if he's wrong he should eat a good bit more than a low percent fsmash.

both marth and sheik seem to be dealing equivalent damage, but the chance of marth dying during the exchange seems a lot higher. How would sheik end up dead? I feel like the only time that happens is if the sheik jumps into marth's dair. But I tested that to death and sheik has multiple timings she can jump at off the throw..so a patient sheik shouldn't be getting spiked that much.

also at low percents sheik has wall jump options to keep marth out and then up b with a high teleport out of range.

edit: maybe that unsafe stuff is safer than i think? I always see marths getting screwed for running off though when the sheik just starts her teleport really early

Oh drat you got me I guess my whole perception of the edge game in Marth vs Sheik is changed forever

 

[knightpraetor]

KK, quit with the sarcasm please. If I'm wrong correct me, but at least clarify what your viewpoint is. How much do you think marth and sheik should respectively get for getting a throw near the edge?

also I'm well aware that my edge game vs sheik probably sucks. But I should point PP sat on stage against the sheiks at that tourney in europe(i forgot their names) and just watched them get to the ledge a lot. I'm not the only one who doesn't convert very well at the edge against sheik

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When you say things like:
"wait KK, you really think marth gets more off a single dthrow on sheik then sheik gets when she throws marth off stage?"

You aren't inviting discussion.

 

[knightpraetor]

sorry, i was just expressing surprise. I feel like it was warranted to ask for clarification since his initial statement was

"what

no, really, what
"

if anything my statement sounds a good bit more open to discussion than KK, since he just said I was wrong without even expressing what his opinion is. There are two opinions he could hold. He could hold that their edgegame is equal. Or he could hold that marth's edgegame on sheik after his throw is much better. Since he expressed shock initially, I assumed that he thought that my statement that sheik has better options off a grab at the ledge were ridiculous.

Anyway, I try not to argue with players better than me by that much, so it's not like I"m not willing to change opinions, I just wanted more reasoning

 

[Kink-Link5]

There are an absurd amount of double standards in this thread.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I responded to him via PM.

edit: KP I'm never talking to you again if you post what I sent you in my PM. So don't. Usual rules of our PM chats applies - what happens on AIM / PM stays on AIM / PM.

 

[Purpletuce]

[COLLAPSE="Quotes of people on Page 263 (using 40 posts/page)"]

why are you using deductive proof?

there is a proven positive correlation between how good a character is and how good their tournament results are. therefore it's perfectly reasonable to inductively conclude how good a character is based off tournament results. melee is far too complicated to qualify as a formal science, so we shouldn't be drawing conclusions without empirical evidence



SHOTS FIRED

It is difficult to understand your limits, but that doesn't mean its not possible. I like to think the MBR is has people like that.

On topic:
Results are just that, a result.In this case the argument is "If Character is (good/bad) then Character has (good/bad) results, therefore If Character has (good/bad) results then Character is (good/bad)". This translates to:

A->B
QED: B->A

which is a logical mistake as the relationship works one way only.

[/COLLAPSE]

This whole, "I went to/am going to college/whatever, I can use big words" thing is silly. . .

The preliminary base(archaic) assumption as to which one may ascertain . . .

Wait, that is a logical fallacy called empty rhetoric. (I can do it too.)

A true intellectual can speak in a way that everyone can understand, but still demonstrate their point effectively, I think that should be a good goal for the people in this discussion forum. Not trying to talk negatively about the specific people I quoted. . . it just started it irritate me.

No not all smashers.. only men, champions or warriors.

I like this.

 

[knightpraetor]

of course.

 

[Purpletuce]

Tripping was, in all likelihood, an attempt to dissuade against dashing as the go-to form of movement and emphasise the use of walking. No shield during dash, no dash canceling, no momentum from a dash jump, no JC grabs out of dashing, tripping only occurring when dashing/C-stick F-smashing, all while giving walking better initial velocity on the whole.

All of these sans the walking buff were, of course, terrible ways to go about deemphasizing dashing, but they all do seem to point toward that as the intended purpose.

Did you think of this or is it common thought(I don't play Brawl except casual)? If you thought of that, that is impressive. . . would have never guessed.

Also, KK, I've noticed you're a little defensive about PMs, and previously only wanted to talk about some ideas (Falco's advantage over Fox in his ability to 'checkmate' opponents), what is your reasoning behind that?

 

[KirbyKaze]

PMs are kind of personal. It's the "P" part of PM. I talk a lot about my own style in them and my own experiences in matches to make connections & draw examples so KP and the other people I discuss these things with can understand the ideas better. It's very personal, especially for me. So I don't want it posted for everyone to see and scrutinize. I also don't think everyone needs to know every little thought I have about everything.

As for what topics interest me? I'm just interested in how the game has changed over years. When I got into competitive smash the way the game was played was more about countering what the opponent's current action, rather than planning a longer term game that eliminates their options systematically. It's all very interesting to me, and I can discuss it on more general terms. Also, Fox and Falco are just cool characters with tons of options so their interactions are more sophisticated and complicated than, say, Marth vs Puff. At least in my opinion.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I thought of it myself but I'm sure others could have arrived at the same conclusion with a little deduction or induction or robot aliens whatever **** you.

I still think the whole Fox Falco thing is that Fox has less worries about actual counterpicks while Falco has stronger winning matchups against the characters he does win against.


Also that purple is ****ing hot wow I didn't know it would look so good in practice.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think that making walking more useful was definitely considered when tripping was added, but the main reason in my opinion was just "Hey guys, guys. Get this, what if sometimes you randomly tripped? How wacky would that be!?"

 

[The Star King]

People who think tripping was added to promote walking are wrong, lol

 

[Kink-Link5]

'Love you too, darlin'

 

[cannedbread]

those crazy nips and their vidya games

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

[COLLAPSE="Quotes of people on Page 263 (using 40 posts/page)"]


[/COLLAPSE]

This whole, "I went to/am going to college/whatever, I can use big words" thing is silly. . .

The preliminary base(archaic) assumption as to which one may ascertain . . .

Wait, that is a logical fallacy called empty rhetoric. (I can do it too.)

A true intellectual can speak in a way that everyone can understand, but still demonstrate their point effectively, I think that should be a good goal for the people in this discussion forum. Not trying to talk negatively about the specific people I quoted. . . it just started it irritate me.



I like this.

There are many ways to express thought. Notations are used because they generally make expressing ideas easier. If I had to write every calculus problem in words that my grandma would understand, it would take me eons to get anything done.


edit- and yes, i do think i could teach my gma calculus if i had the time

 

[Varist]

omg secrets i need to know them

 

[Deleted member]

How so? The way I see it is that they can both own each other very hard after landing one hit.

I'm glad you understand the initial disparity.

 

[Theftz22]

Yo let me get into the big words contest.

Results are just that, a result.In this case the argument is "If Character is (good/bad) then Character has (good/bad) results, therefore If Character has (good/bad) results then Character is (good/bad)". This translates to:

A->B
QED: B->A

which is a logical mistake as the relationship works one way only.

That's just a strawman of the argument. The argument properly formulated would be

1. If character x is good, then character x has good results.
2. Character x does not have good results.
3. Therefore character x is not good.

You can see that this is a valid modus tollens argument. Note that the truth of 1 implies (by contrapositive), that:

1'. If character x does not have good results, then character x is not good.

This is the form that is being used, not the converse, which would be invalid.

why are you using deductive proof?

there is a proven positive correlation between how good a character is and how good their tournament results are. therefore it's perfectly reasonable to inductively conclude how good a character is based off tournament results. melee is far too complicated to qualify as a formal science, so we shouldn't be drawing conclusions without empirical evidence



SHOTS FIRED

Is the correlation proven? How? To prove a correlation between between how good a character is and how good its results are, that presupposes already judging the character to be good, or else you couldn't say that the character's value is correlated to its results.

Also, we would have to assess the strength of the correlation to assess what degree of evidential support such an inductive argument would give to some character being good/bad.

 

[Purpletuce]

*Ignoring 'big words' for the sake of 'big words' *

@KK: I'm glad you're so passionate about your ideas, I also think that it gives them more value when restricted to a singular person, so that is cool. Also, I think a strong factor in how Fox/Falco is so intricate is their speed, with more actions over time, those characters have more options over time, which contrasts the players' constant reaction times, allowing more of their actual skill and playstyle to show through. Example, in Bowser dittos, much of the players' reaction time would be compensated for with the lag of the opponent's moves, and their own playstyle would be masked more often in the obscene amount of lag in their moves. Which I think would start to force less intricate interaction in Bowser dittos vs. Spacies matches. This would probably apply(to a lesser extent) to other MUs, such as Marth-Puff.

@Kink-Link5&KK(on a different thread)&&others(probably): I'm glad the new purple looks better :D

@Sveet: I think teaching your grandma calculus is hardly applicable. I don't think you need to sue calculus to describe smash bros, and doing so only serve the point of making you look smart, without much effectiveness in the conversation. I also don't know how you intended for that statement to sound, but what I got from it is a comparison between the average smasher's understanding of smash, and your grandma's understanding of calculus, which you made sound like didn't exist. From how I interpreted your message, it sounds like you think it would take eons for you to stoop to the average smasher's level to explain your understanding of smash, which I think greatly underestimates us, as well as overestimates yourself. Sorry if I'm getting to worked up over nothing, but I don't think it is hard to post simply, effectively and concisely.