• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
I dont know whats worse about this post, the unwarranted aggression, or the opinions being passed off as facts immediately after.

I thought I was on smashboards, not the comment section of a call of duty video on youtube.tsk tsk.

everyone is entitled to their own opinions, as long as you arent afraid to defend it. similarly, everyone learns at a different pace. just because you can PS without much effort put forth doesn't mean everyone can consistently. In a perfect world, yes, everyone would, but flaws in your opponents skillset are part of what make smash fun.
Nothing in that post was intended to be serious. It sounds like you interpreted it that way. Unless you didn't, in which case, well played.

The thing is, while I used myself as an example, a lot of local players can also PS far more consistently than I can. It could just be my state having to live with PP, but he usually beats all of us up using Mario or Peach or something, so I doubt that's why. Or maybe it's a Ganon main thing, since I know most Ganon mains can PS consistently, and we need every advantage we can get in order to play a character that bad.
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
To be fair, Bones kind of has a point. Powershielding shouldn't be your only option. You should also be able to do other things, like jump over the lasers, SDI the lasers, duck under the lasers, run off the edge and suicide so there's absolutely no way you'll get hit by the lasers, etc.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
Then please eloquently describe what qualifies Peach, as a character, to be mid-top tier, discounting Armada's exceptionally apparent skill disparity. It's an answer I've been seeking from someone since this tired argument began.

Such vitriol.
You have got to be one of the worst posters on this board. All you do is ad hominum and pretend to know things by asking vague/abstract questions.

What's your tierlist?

inb4 completely safe, no thought, regurgitated, 2010 copy pasta tierlist.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
This only partially relates to the discussion at hand but I think we've got some misconceptions about powershielding. Powershielding a laser isn't a punish. It's a conduit through which you can turn certain kinds of lasers into an opening, similar to jumping over lasers, wavelanding off a platform over them, dashing under them, or crouching > movement under them (and so forth). For a lot of characters (probably most of them but I've never looked at it too seriously), successfully PSing a laser is a stronger option than the other main methods of working around a laser (jump, jump > platform waveland, traditional shield > WD / jump OOS) because the stun of the laser plus the faster movement (jump is slower for most characters than WD for covering distance) giving a larger window to punish. It's also, all things considered, a fairly low commitment option from a distance if you simply don't want to go through the effort of repositioning around them (which is also a big part of it).

What matters for a powershielder is how quickly they can reach Falco after PSing a laser and from how far (and also what they can do to Falco, I guess, but everyone has throw > death on Falco so whatever). Mario's powershield game will never give him an even MU (or favourable one) with Falco because even with the powershield, he's still got no range so the windows are still tiny and he needs very specific distances. For characters like Sheik and Marth? This is not so much of an issue.



edit:

Blistering Speed - Peach's shield game, zoning, and low variance in her combos probably could be argued to secure her a spot among the top characters. She's also more resistant to death than most of the other top characters in that her recovery not only exists but comes with low lag options.

Peach probably has the best shield in the game with what she can do out of it and how she gets hurt somewhat less by grabs than the other characters with shield options (spacies and Sheik).
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
It's not that people need to powershield, it's that, for all the *****ing people do about his lasers, powershielding is an easy, effective way to deal with them. And if you are fluid out of every powershield you decide to do, then it's not a bad option at ALL (for example, Peach's powershield > float puts her in a great position, regardless of whether or not the laser hits Falco).

I sitting here, baffled, wondering how people don't think powershielding makes at least most vs Falco MUs at least slightly better. Truly, truly baffling.

ninja'd by KK. :p
 

Blistering Speed

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
2,709
Location
Dot Dot Dash Dot
I don't understand why just because Armada is the best he automatically cannot be used as evidence to suggest Peach being higher on the tier list.
I don't disagree. This is why I made sure to discount the clear disparity in Armada's skill, not his inherent performance.
But you can also say that the way Armada plays gives a look into at the highest level what could make Peach a better character than previously thought.
I've yet to see Armada "revolutionise" Peach's metagame to a degree that would allow me to move her above Marth or Sheik. He's improved Peach's shield (and OOS) utility, he's incorporated trading to a greater degree than previously seen and his punishment is incontestably efficient, but largely Armada's success in matches can be seen as the product of extraordinary consistency and simply outplaying the opponent.
MacD also does pretty well at nationals so its not entirely Armada.
I think this statement proves that empirical evidence outside of Armada is, frankly, sparse.
You have got to be one of the worst posters on this board. All you do is ad hominum and pretend to know things by asking vague/abstract questions.

What's your tierlist?
Falco
Fox
Puff

Marth/Sheik

Peach
Ice Climbers
Falcon
inb4 completely safe, no thought, regurgitated, 2010 copy pasta tierlist.
If only my list was fantastical and nonsensical like the great JPOBS'.
Blistering Speed - Peach's shield game, zoning, and low variance in her combos probably could be argued to secure her a spot among the top characters. She's also more resistant to death than most of the other top characters in that her recovery not only exists but comes with low lag options.
I understand and realise Peach's various strong attributes, it's why I rank her as 6th. Do you personally feel that the above equates to being above any of Falco/Fox/Puff/Marth/Sheik?
Peach probably has the best shield in the game with what she can do out of it and how she gets hurt somewhat less by grabs than the other characters with shield options (spacies and Sheik).
Agreed. By benefit of shine, n/b/d-air and scary (though comparatively lesser) grabs, I think that Fox and Falco's OOS game is better in a vacuum, but the potential grab punishment risk intrinsic to the characters outweighs this.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
hmm my opinion on powershielding is that marth at least has sufficient options against lasers if the falco is actually approaching relatively often after lasers..however, if the falco is just burning time while your shield wears down while playing safely out of range and shutting down your oos options..then powershielding isn't an option..it's a necessity
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I will be sure to tell Ice that his anti-Falco technique is bad and crappy and he's lost before the stage has finished loading.
He powershielded one laser in his entire set vs. Mango at Apex, and he didn't punish off of it. I don't think PSing is bad AT ALL. I just think it's bad to RELY on it. It's the same with virtually every tactic. Is Marth's dash dance grab good? Obviously. Should Marth's just DD grab all game? Only if they want to lose.

*waits for Scumbreon to say that's exactly what Marth players should do*

For the record, I would consider my PS game above average. :awesome:
 

Zoler

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
991
Location
Sweden
He powershielded one laser in his entire set vs. Mango at Apex, and he didn't punish off of it. I don't think PSing is bad AT ALL. I just think it's bad to RELY on it. It's the same with virtually every tactic. Is Marth's dash dance grab good? Obviously. Should Marth's just DD grab all game? Only if they want to lose.

*waits for Scumbreon to say that's exactly what Marth players should do*

For the record, I would consider my PS game above average. :awesome:
Then watch his game vs zhu in the crews battle.

Zhu got destroyed by it IIRC.

Falcos kinda get destroyed by powershielding, too bad everyone sucks at it.
 

Warhawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
1,086
Location
Mt. Pleasant/Highland, MI
I've yet to see Armada "revolutionise" Peach's metagame to a degree that would allow me to move her above Marth or Sheik. He's improved Peach's shield (and OOS) utility, he's incorporated trading to a greater degree than previously seen and his punishment is incontestably efficient, but largely Armada's success in matches can be seen as the product of extraordinary consistency and simply outplaying the opponent.

I think this statement proves that empirical evidence outside of Armada is, frankly, sparse.
The two points made here can be made with Hungrybox too but most people will still agree that Puff belongs in the highest tier. Hungrybox's success over other Puffs can be attributed to his spacing and consistency (though not quite to Armada's extent) and there aren't any other Puffs that are near Hungrybox's level, but Puff is still in the top 4 in probably 90 precent of lists because he has shown that Puff can compete with the very top of the list. I think that both Hungrybox and Armada have shown that some matchups are potentially not as bad as previously thought and by closing those up they bring their character closer to the top of the tier list. I don't think Peach should really move up, maybe I can see her being 5th, but I do think there's a good argument for putting her in the highest tier with those above her, because its been shown that she can compete well with them, despite being slightly disadvantaged to them.
 

john!

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
8,063
Location
The Garden of Earthly Delights
people seem to forget that mango's puff was the best in the world for like a year and a half. when 2 people dominate with a character, it's easier to attribute part of their success to their character, as opposed to 1 person dominating with their character (which could just as likely be due to their individual skill level)
 

Bing

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
4,885
Location
St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada
I completely agree with this John. I mean I was reading a few pages back and noticed the arguement on how we should disregard Armada's Peach because he's the best in the world and blah blah blah.
Honestly we cant ignore him otherwise lets just ignore Hungrybox Puff. Oops now shes A tier at best. What Armada does with Peach can't be ignored because it shows how could Peach can be and he himself keeps improving showing thats theres even more potential in her game. This skill is clearly obtainable because he has done it. So honestly, drop the bull**** about Ignoring Armada. He's the best player in the world and he doesnt do it with a top tier. Oh well.

If we ignore Armada with Peach, lets just Ignore Axe with Pikachu while were at it.
 

strawhats

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
4,273
Location
Bronx
people seem to forget that mango's puff was the best in the world for like a year and a half. when 2 people dominate with a character, it's easier to attribute part of their success to their character, as opposed to 1 person dominating with their character (which could just as likely be due to their individual skill level)
I was just about to say this. Mango's roots is essentially puff, down to the very way he plays his fox/falco has a very puff-esque style (in terms of spacing at the very least)
 

Blistering Speed

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
2,709
Location
Dot Dot Dash Dot
Theres a difference between ignoring the player and ignoring the techniques introduced by the player
Exactly, which is why I elaborated on Peach's metagame advancement here:
I've yet to see Armada "revolutionise" Peach's metagame to a degree that would allow me to move her above Marth or Sheik. He's improved Peach's shield (and OOS) utility, he's incorporated trading to a greater degree than previously seen and his punishment is incontestably efficient, but largely Armada's success in matches can be seen as the product of extraordinary consistency and simply outplaying the opponent.
This is where Warhawk's "Hungrybox as an outlier to also be discounted" analogy falls short, because not only has there been two extremely high level Jigglypuff players (credit: John pointing this out), but they both completely transformed the character's metagame (Hungrybox perhaps the lesser, considering he was elaborating on Mango's foundation with a "gayer", more exploitive playstyle), in entirely different ways.
Do you even innovation?
A point I didn't think needed clarifying: Tier lists should be evaluated based on their accuracy, not their originality.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
A point I didn't think needed clarifying: Tier lists should be evaluated based on their accuracy, not their originality.
I (and this is directed at lovage as well) was mostly kidding. But now you've got me. What the **** does this statement mean?
"Tier lists should be evaluated based on their accuracy"

Accuracy in relation to what?
 

Warhawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
1,086
Location
Mt. Pleasant/Highland, MI
This is where Warhawk's "Hungrybox as an outlier to also be discounted" analogy falls short, because not only has there been two extremely high level Jigglypuff players (credit: John pointing this out), but they both completely transformed the character's metagame (Hungrybox perhaps the lesser, considering he was elaborating on Mango's foundation with a "gayer", more exploitive playstyle), in entirely different ways.
There WERE two high level Jigglypuff players that improved Puffs game. I don't think Mang0's Puff domination of a few years ago is as relavent to Puff being at the top now, especially when current top Puff play is considerably different from how Mang0 played Puff during those years anymore. Also as much as they revolutionized Puff other character mains have revolutionized the way they play against Puff now as people are much better at fighting against her now. People are much better with their characters at finding ways to combat the new Puff game which many players struggled against before, so couldn't that be another argument for Puff falling since Hungrybox is really the only consistent placing Puff anymore with these adjustments that have been made through the years? I also don't know why it takes a revolution to change a character's position. I think slight improvements all-around to a character's game can be just as important to improving a character's metagame.
 

KingofCereal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
252
Location
DC
Realization: people seem to be acting like Peach being ranked high is a crazy idea. Aside from the first ever MBR tier list (almost 10 years ago) Peach has never been ranked lower than she is now. The only reason she is bumped from top 5 is that dumb marshmallow.
 

Froggy

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
2,448
3DS FC
3110-7430-0100
I'm curious, does anyone other than BlisteringSpeed dispute the notion that Peach > Marth? Because if not then I think it would be more productive to just ignore him on this matter.
 

Bing

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
4,885
Location
St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada
The Peach>Marth is a tough decision... Like in some ways I believe she is, but at the same time, Marth has so few bad matchups I cant help but also disagree. So Im really on the fence about this one... Has a Marth fan though Im going to say no, but thats just bias...
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I still think Marth is better because I feel at this point in time that Peach absolutely needs a secondary to cover her Puff MU weakness right now whereas Marth can feasibly beat his bad MUs by comboing them to death or playing a better footsie.

edit: I think Peach is probably top tier though. She's like... similar quality of character, IMO. Her game just kind of fizzles vs Puff. And camping Fox is rough (although not as rough as Puff).

There's just a level of completeness about her that I don't really feel with Falcon and ICs so I think she's better than them.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I ignore Blistering Speed on every matter.

I think I'm pretty happy with this matchup chart.
=: Even
+/-: Slight (dis)advantage
++/--: Fair (dis)advantage

I don't think any top tier matchup is particularly bad. ++/-- would probably be what most people consider 60/40, maybe 65/35. I base my matchups on encounters between strangers who both have a lot of experience in the matchup.

LEFT:TOP | Falco | Peach | Sheik | Falcon | Marth | Fox | Jigglypuff
Falco | | -- | + | + | - | - | -
Peach | ++ | | - | -- | = | + | --
Sheik | - | + | | + | ++ | = | -
Falcon | - | ++ | - | | = | = | =
Marth | + | = | -- | = | | + | +
Fox | + | - | = | = | - | | +
Jigglypuff | + | ++ | + | = | - | -
 

Armada

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
1,366
100-0 acording to Bones0 logic.
So yeah Fox loses now, such a ****ty char.


I don't think people should exclude me/what I do exc. I think it is wrong to use it TO much cause people get blind because of results and what players are doing good with what chars atm.

Stuff like Peach winning against Fox (or even close to it) is one example of some people beeing blind because of results (it is such a extreme MU for those cases so a lot of better examples excist for proveing what Im saying like Falco would **** Marth for example).
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,919
Location
NY (LI)
I think parts of that mu chart are really badPeach does not have a large advantage on falco its most likely even, the jiggs mu for peach is far worst then the falcon mu so them having the same mu on the chart makes no sense. Also peach does not beat fox and what kk said

:phone:
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,406
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
So Bones, how do you list Falco with the worst matchup spread of the top 7 but still claim him to be best in the game

And uh

That spread for Marth ought to make him the clear best in the game (assuming you also think ICs do well v Sheik) but you put him at 5th..

what
 

leffen

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
2,032
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
wtf bones, even with those ******** claims how the **** is falco #1 if he heavily loses to peach (#2) and only barely wins over falcon/sheik in the whole top tier

you ****ing ******
 
Top Bottom