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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

unknown522

Some guy
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1.Honestly because for starters, people are finding out ways to beat Fox greater and greater as opposed to Falco. While yes, They both are combo'd the same, the neutral game is different and Falco's is more difficult to handle.

2.Going along with the first reason, Some of Fox's MU's are going down in terms of advantage(Look at the Vs Peach discussion) while Falco is atleast staying somewhat the same if not improving

3. a) Now people can get off My **** for maining the best character the game and bug those who main Falco.

3. b) Birds should always be ontop, they ****ing fly.


This is all in my own opinion, and I know someone will tear it apart. But I dont care.

To be honest My opinion on Falco in general changes on like a weekly basis... Last week I wanted him 3rd under Fox and Marth or some ****. But honestly when I put serious thought into it. Falco>Fox.
ok. Just wondering

:phone:
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

Smash Champion
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Bing do u mean that fox v peach discussion where a bunch of high/top level players came in and said it was nonsense b/c if so i wouldnt be using that as a sorce for why falco > fox

That being said i think falco maybe should move above fox on the tier list

:phone:
 

Warhawk

Smash Lord
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High

Shiek
Peach
Marth
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Why is Jigglypuff not only below Peach but also Falcon as well? Jigglypuff seems to have a considerably easier time with higher tiers than Falcon even if he does beat up on most of the lower tiers better than she does. I would really love to hear the reasoning behind some of your choices.
 

Blistering Speed

Smash Champion
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Stop putting Peach in the top five, you ****ing drones.
why does everyone think yoshi should be higher on every list? because he looks cool and is bad at the SAME TIME!? I dont get it
Invincibility frames on command on the ground via Parrying, (very) heavy armour frames in the air, invincible egg throw camping, very threatening shield pressure and combo game a la DJC aerials, untouchable on platforms etc.

***** about your character when you've actually attempted to incorporate this stuff.
 

Construct

Smash Journeyman
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NEOH
Stop putting Peach in the top five, you ****ing drones.
Seriously. Isn't it fairly widely accepted that she has even to losing MUs against Fox Puff Marth and Falcon? That doesn't scream S tier to me.


My n00b tierlist

S
Falco- Ridiculous combos and pressure, strong neutral game and stage control. Yeah he dies early and is susceptible to combos, but so what? Long recoveries aren't what they used to be because of how good everyone is at edgeguarding nowadays.

Fox- Still number one in teams imo, but doesn't have the same control and damage output that falco does in singles.

Puff- Puff is still ****. I could see puff dropping in the future as people learned to space around her better or combo her better (Leffen knows some scary stuff), but not yet.

Marth- Ridiculous grab game, ridiculous range, fairly ridiculous combos on basically everybody, top notch edgeguarding and gimping game, and very good aerial play. Loses to sheik and is pretty easy to combo, but deathgrabs on spacies, outranging puff, and the fraudulent things he can do to Peach more than makes up for that in my eyes.


A
Sheik- Yes Sheik beats Marth, but she has a much harder time against Fox Falco and Puff, hence why I placed her lower. Sure she has free MUs against the bottom tiers, but not all MUs carry the same weight.

Peach- She has a lot going for her, she really does, but that doesn't mean she's suddenly S tier. She still has loads more losing MUs than the other top tiers. Good stuff Peach mains for being so successful.

B
Falcon- Falcon has some awesome combos, but his lack of a proper approach really hinders him in my eyes. His recovery is pretty awful too.

Climbers- I don't have very much firsthand experience with them. Sorry! Potentially switch with Falcon. They have awesome damage output and grabgame, but they really seem to crumble against serious offensive pressure.


my two cents
 

Armada

Smash Lord
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Messages
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shoutouts to bones0 logic, coined on king funk stream
I agree.
Bones0 was so ****ing awesome during the stream.

Bones0 logic will forever be the best logic ever!
Inui logic doesn't stand a chance to the new champs logic =)
 

Mahone

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Construct is my new hero for putting reasoning in his tier list :)

And on top of that his reasoning is solid

The only difference i have is puff below sheik, but you said she might drop so whatever, close enough
 

Armada

Smash Lord
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I agree!
Bones was so fun at the stream.

I think a lot of people had fun with Bones logic and the way he talked about different situations =)
 

Fregadero

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
389
Sounds about right :troll:
/jp

Peach is top tier even though she looses to puff falcon fox and marth. Fox/Falcon/Marth are only slightly in their favor and Jiggs is a rare encounter. Her trading/turnips/recovery/floatiness give her a lot of versatility.

If you wanna say the peaches just have better technology atm, then thats fine. What could potentially be done to beat it isn't as important as the fact that they're not.
 

Grape Ape

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Sounds about right :troll:
/jp

Peach is top tier even though she looses to puff falcon fox and marth. Fox/Falcon/Marth are only slightly in their favor and Jiggs is a rare encounter. Her trading/turnips/recovery/floatiness give her a lot of versatility.

If you wanna say the peaches just have better technology atm, then thats fine. What could potentially be done to beat it isn't as important as the fact that they're not.
agreewiththis/10
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
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Peach loses to sheik too. Basically, she has losing matchups with every character above her, not much different from falcon.

Peach simply is floaty which allows each first hit to matter less in terms of the whole set. This just means that the better player has more opportunities to prove themselves.

:phone:
 

Fregadero

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Messages
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I don't think she looses to Flaco (you did say ever character above her, sorry if you didn't mean that and I'm splitting hairs) and I would say the same thing about the sheik matchup as I would Fox/Falcon/Marth.

In a vacuum I think Peach is right where she belongs. But in todays metagame, what a tier list is supposed to represent, I think she belongs in the middle of top tier. I don't know the ordering but Falco is first and Peach isn't last imo.

I personally advocate making 2 tier lists. One for humans and one for robots. That way we can stop exaggerating the effect of character potential on the tier list. That is why we update it, right?
 

ShroudedOne

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Falco is even. But if she loses to everyone in the top seven besides Falco and herself, how in the world could she possibly be top tier? Let's even assume that she goes even with both spacies. She still loses decisively to Sheik/Marth, and loses a bit to Falcon, and at least loses a bit to Puff.

If we're going to discount MUs entirely and just go based on how people are fighting her, then sure, she can be second right after Falco. But the moment you say, "Well, let's look at her matchup spread to factor into her placing," I don't think she can be higher than, at the most, 4th.

But that's just my take.

==

I want to know (this isn't a sarcastic question or anything, just my curiosity, because I haven't seen it, but perhaps someone has, and I like learning), what new things do you guys think have been introduced to Peach's metagame that haven't been implemented? Obviously, the major one Peach has been Armada, but I mean other players, too. What do you see Peach in general doing differently that she wasn't before, that is helping her overcome the weaknesses she had in the past? Is it how she handles her neutral better? I know her combo game has been improved drastically, and her edgeguarding has come up, but what are other things you guys see? (specifics or general, either works) I'd like to see this whole Peach moving up thing, but I don't.
 

Wake

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Thank you Based Mimi.
I think her MU with Falco is even, and her MU with Falcon is really close to even, but she loses to Fox, Puff, Sheik, and Marth straight up, though, Marth isn't too bad.
 

leffen

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Peach wins 55-45 against falco imo (and I know armada thinks its at best even for falco).

The fact that you can powershield->throwturnip/ jump into float ***** the matchup
 

Blistering Speed

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In a vacuum I think Peach is right where she belongs. But in todays metagame, what a tier list is supposed to represent, I think she belongs in the middle of top tier. I don't know the ordering but Falco is first and Peach isn't last imo
Allow me to translate this, for the very last time.
Armada is the best player in the world.
I'm so incredibly bored of this argument, where people are completely ****ing inept at distinguishing a player's skill from a character's relative viability.
 

Fregadero

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Falco is even. But if she loses to everyone in the top seven besides Falco and herself, how in the world could she possibly be top tier? Let's even assume that she goes even with both spacies. She still loses decisively to Sheik/Marth, and loses a bit to Falcon, and at least loses a bit to Puff.

If we're going to discount MUs entirely and just go based on how people are fighting her, then sure, she can be second right after Falco. But the moment you say, "Well, let's look at her matchup spread to factor into her placing," I don't think she can be higher than, at the most, 4th.

But that's just my take.

==

I want to know (this isn't a sarcastic question or anything, just my curiosity, because I haven't seen it, but perhaps someone has, and I like learning), what new things do you guys think have been introduced to Peach's metagame that haven't been implemented? Obviously, the major one Peach has been Armada, but I mean other players, too. What do you see Peach in general doing differently that she wasn't before, that is helping her overcome the weaknesses she had in the past? Is it how she handles her neutral better? I know her combo game has been improved drastically, and her edgeguarding has come up, but what are other things you guys see? (specifics or general, either works) I'd like to see this whole Peach moving up thing, but I don't.
I've only been following/playing since August so I can't really answer that too well. I understand that that pretty much discredits me entirely, but I feel that matchups that are slightly in the other characters favor shouldn't hold much more weight than an even matchup. Playstyle becomes a bigger influence at this point.

:phone:
 

Mahone

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Peach wins 55-45 against falco imo (and I know armada thinks its at best even for falco).

The fact that you can powershield->throwturnip/ jump into float ***** the matchup
The fact that I can take laser->powershield turnip->(turnip hits peach)->offense

makes its 55-45 falco again
 

Fregadero

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Allow me to translate this, for the very last time.

I'm so incredibly bored of this argument, where people are completely ****ing inept at distinguishing a player's skill from a character's tier position.
I mean I'm basing this off of all the peach players I play and watch and discussions I've had with local peach mains. I actually think Armada could win nationals with the top 6 without much more work. But ok man, whatever you say.

I'm pretty sure everyone thinks you're an angry idiot anyway. I know I can't stand your posts, even when they're not directed at me.

And honestly, a **** riding joke would have been way better. You're not even good at being an *******.

:phone:
 

ShroudedOne

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@Boat Mode: But you do realize that saying Peach/Falco is even is drastically different (especially at high level, especially in this punishment-heavy meta) than saying Falco or Peach wins slightly, right? Even if there's just a few things the winner can abuse, that changes things really drastically if the other character has limited/no responses to it, or it just beats the character.

@Leffen: Powershield > float/downsmsh/any of her regular OoS options is why, for a time, I could be convinced that Peach won (especially when powershielding is so EASY for her, omg). Powershield > turnip throw LOOOL. No one will ever do that (but now I have to try).
 

Fregadero

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@Boat Mode: But you do realize that saying Peach/Falco is even is drastically different (especially at high level, especially in this punishment-heavy meta) than saying Falco or Peach wins slightly, right? Even if there's just a few things the winner can abuse, that changes things really drastically if the other character has limited/no responses to it, or it just beats the character.

@Leffen: Powershield > float/downsmsh/any of her regular OoS options is why, for a time, I could be convinced that Peach won (especially when powershielding is so EASY for her, omg). Powershield > turnip throw LOOOL. No one will ever do that (but now I have to try).
At least in the falcon/marth matchups, I don't feel these advantages are exploitable enough to cause large differences. Thats what I' usually think of as slight anyway. Peach has enough versatility that she has a decent response to most situations. I don't think theres anything these two chars can exploit to greatly limit her options in neutral.
 

Blistering Speed

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I mean I'm basing this off of all the peach players I play and watch and discussions I've had with local peach mains. I actually think Armada could win nationals with the top 6 without much more work. But ok man, whatever you say.
Then please eloquently describe what qualifies Peach, as a character, to be mid-top tier, discounting Armada's exceptionally apparent skill disparity. It's an answer I've been seeking from someone since this tired argument began.
I'm pretty sure everyone thinks you're an angry idiot anyway. I know I can't stand your posts, even when they're not directed at me.

And honestly, a **** riding joke would have been way better. You're not even good at being an *******.
Such vitriol.
 
D

Deleted member

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we should really just drop the powershield thing as a means to evaluate a debate.

if you can powershield a character proficiently, you're probably going to win anyway.

the fact that you need to powershield falco to have a good match with him says a lot about the character.
 

Cummings

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we should really just drop the powershield thing as a means to evaluate a debate.

if you can powershield a character proficiently, you're probably going to win anyway.

the fact that you need to powershield falco to have a good match with him says a lot about the character.
^^^way to not get sucked into that umbreon. + respect.

but just to add my two cents, I was under the impression that tier lists were a reflection of the metagame as well as tournament results, as in more than just the tourneys in which armada enters. And besides him, I don't think there is an oppressing force of peach players winning/doing unreasonably well in tourneys. At least not in my region that is (could be wrong here)

bottom line: armada is just a good player. the peach johns should stop.
 

RaphaelRobo

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if you can powershield a character proficiently, you're probably going to win anyway.
Are you saying there are people who can't powershield? Any mid-level player should be able to powershield the majority of lasers coming at them. I'm a low level player, and I can PS about 20% of lasers. And I got to that point with almost no experience in the matchup, just 20 minutes with a Lv9 Falco.
 

Warhawk

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I don't understand why just because Armada is the best he automatically cannot be used as evidence to suggest Peach being higher on the tier list. Yes, you can argue that his skill level has more to do with him winning with Peach than Peach just being better than advertised on the tier list. But you can also say that the way Armada plays gives a look into at the highest level what could make Peach a better character than previously thought. MacD also does pretty well at nationals so its not entirely Armada. I don't even necessarily think myself that Peach should move up, its just that people are so quick to discount the argument on the basis of Armada's skill that Armada ends up more of a piece of the argument against moving Peach up despite the potential he does show in Peach.
 

RaphaelRobo

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Are you an idiot? Peach has no potential. Armada is the only reason she does well. If Armada were playing Peachu, he'd still be winning international tournaments. It's all about his skill, not the character.
 

Cummings

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Are you an idiot? Peach has no potential. Armada is the only reason she does well. If Armada were playing Peachu, he'd still be winning international tournaments. It's all about his skill, not the character.
I dont know whats worse about this post, the unwarranted aggression, or the opinions being passed off as facts immediately after.

I thought I was on smashboards, not the comment section of a call of duty video on youtube.tsk tsk.

everyone is entitled to their own opinions, as long as you arent afraid to defend it. similarly, everyone learns at a different pace. just because you can PS without much effort put forth doesn't mean everyone can consistently. In a perfect world, yes, everyone would, but flaws in your opponents skillset are part of what make smash fun.
 
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