Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Armada]

wtf bones, even with those ******** claims how the **** is falco #1 if he heavily loses to peach (#2) and only barely wins over falcon/sheik in the whole top tier

you ****ing ******

Maybe Bones0 logic is even harder to understand then we first thought

 

[Bones0]

So Bones, how do you list Falco with the worst matchup spread of the top 7 but still claim him to be best in the game

And uh

That spread for Marth ought to make him the clear best in the game (assuming you also think ICs do well v Sheik) but you put him at 5th..

what

wtf bones, even with those ******** claims how the **** is falco #1 if he heavily loses to peach (#2) and only barely wins over falcon/sheik in the whole top tier

you ****ing ******

My matchups are based on ideal conditions for both players. Like I've said before, most people suck balls vs. lasers which is largely why I think Falco is still the best bet to win tournaments. His combos are also more reliable for damage output than someone like Marth. If Falco misses the chase after a shine he still has the opponent in the air and can work with it. Marth dropping a chain grab means a would-be stock turned into 15%, and he's liable to get counterattacked. In tournament you aren't constantly playing people in matchups you are both godlike at. I think that's how a matchup chart should be represented though.

 

[Beat!]

Damn, so all those hours on the stream, and in the end we had still only gone over the tip of the iceberg?

This **** is deep.

 

[Zoler]

I love how we all are following this thread XD

Bones logic is so intense and interesting

 

[Armada]

Damn, so all those hours on the stream, and in the end we had still only gone over the tip of the iceberg?

This **** is deep.

Word.

Bones0: You should make a book or something about how to make perfect MU charts and probably everything else that can be important for competitive players/communities.

I would seriously buy this book if you put some work into it =)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bones logic is too strong.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

My matchups are based on ideal conditions for both players. Like I've said before, most people suck balls vs. lasers which is largely why I think Falco is still the best bet to win tournaments. His combos are also more reliable for damage output than someone like Marth. If Falco misses the chase after a shine he still has the opponent in the air and can work with it. Marth dropping a chain grab means a would-be stock turned into 15%, and he's liable to get counterattacked. In tournament you aren't constantly playing people in matchups you are both godlike at. I think that's how a matchup chart should be represented though.

While I don't particularly agree with using two different criteria for a matchup chart and a tier list, I can see why it'd be desirable, so this response is actually pretty good justification

Damn

 

[Bing]

My matchups are based on ideal conditions for both players. Like I've said before, most people suck balls vs. lasers which is largely why I think Falco is still the best bet to win tournaments. His combos are also more reliable for damage output than someone like Marth. If Falco misses the chase after a shine he still has the opponent in the air and can work with it. Marth dropping a chain grab means a would-be stock turned into 15%, and he's liable to get counterattacked. In tournament you aren't constantly playing people in matchups you are both godlike at. I think that's how a matchup chart should be represented though.

I umm... umm... I dont even..

This and how a tier list should be made... makes no sense. Saying Falco is the best character in the game but loses to like every high tier... I dont understand.

 

[leffen]

Falco pressing B 1 frame too early turns a laser into a side B offstage. Falcos jump is the hardest to perfect ledgedash/waveland/wavedash in and easily causes suicides/random fulljumps from being 1 frame off perfect.
For every little misjudgement, mistiming, Falco get punished harder than anyone else (yoshi/fox aside I guess).
Aside from suiciding easy etc, he also dies the easiest from one hit



This also doesn't explain why the **** you put jiggs at the bottom (the characters that gains the most, barring maybe peach, on people playing sloppy) and fox there too (the character that is by far the most alike falco, while having a better matchup spread according to you)


You haven't actually managed to think through this ******** list, and you go against your logic all the time.

ALSO: please remember people, that bones is an awful falco that has been playing for years but still has no high level tournament experience and would never make it past pools at anything.
All of his experience comes from playing a under average marth. Guess why he always uses falco and marth for every example?

and how exactly can you compare missing a chaingrab that STILL lets you get a free techchase that you can react to
with missing a chase after shine that requires much tigher execution when you could compare it to marths uair chains, that leaves marth in the same ****ing position as falco BUT better since he can juggle better.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

lol what are you talking about leffen

Falco is braindead easy

tho I'd think with this logic a character that takes negative skill (puff) would beat one which requires none at all (falco)

so you have a point there

 

[Geenareeno]

Leffen you don't need to attack Bones' person just because you strongly disagree with him. This is why drama follows you. Also everyone is circlejerking so hard right now. Makes the community look ********... Good thing no one else uses these boards.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

To be fair guys, the smash community in general has a very strong disconnect between their tier lists and matchups charts. People putting Peach in top 5 in the same breath as saying she has an unwinnable v Puff, and loses to Marth, Fox, Falcon, and Sheik, a spread that ought to put her at like 10th at best, is just as suspect as what Bones is claiming with Falco.

And frankly, if he justifies it by saying that a tier list as he defines it is an ordering of the characters that do best in tournament, then it should be expected that factors are taken into account that aren't present in a matchup chart evaluation (human error, ease of execution, comeback factor, the current metagame, etc)

sidenote: Bones is a homie. Haters can ead

 

[Bing]

To be fair guys, the smash community in general has a very strong disconnect between their tier lists and matchups charts. People putting Peach in top 5 in the same breath as saying she has an unwinnable v Puff, and loses to Marth, Fox, Falcon, and Sheik, a spread that ought to put her at like 10th at best, is just as suspect as what Bones is claiming with Falco.

Agreed except for the fact that now people are believing that the Peach v Fox MU is now MAYBE even aswell as the Falcon MU. Regardless I agree, a lot of people(Including myself) have bias lists based off results. If a Peach wins every national, that result bias will come out and suddenly Peach becomes top 3 characters.

Personally I think that She goes even Falcon and Falco, while yes losing to Puff pretty sorely, and slightly losing to Fox and Sheik.

Peach vs Marth on the otherhand Im not sure about... its either 55-45 Marth or even.

Anyways Im done before I make myself sound stupid.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I think bones and crimson r the same person.

Edit: and now i am going to be mean. Bing u stopped to late u sounded stupid the sec u made it sound like peach v fox is not at least 60 40 in fox's favor

 

[KirbyKaze]

To be fair guys, the smash community in general has a very strong disconnect between their tier lists and matchups charts. People putting Peach in top 5 in the same breath as saying she has an unwinnable v Puff, and loses to Marth, Fox, Falcon, and Sheik, a spread that ought to put her at like 10th at best, is just as suspect as what Bones is claiming with Falco.

I actually have her at 6th.

And reasonable MUs with everyone but one character is not something the others competing for that spot can really say AFAIK except maybe ICs.

I don't think Falcon or Marth are that bad for Peach. I think Puff (and to a lesser degree Sheik) are the really tough ones because they're low variance characters and Peach loves little inconsistencies so she can find spots to slot random nairs or whatever. Sheik and Puff also outpace Peach in damage & kill potential for most of the match, which is troublesome for her. Fox I have mixed feelings about.




edit:

When I say "unwinnable" I don't mean "literally cannot be done". It's a mistake on my part but I just mean it's a really big uphill battle and one character is clearly favoured by a lot. Sheik vs Ganon, for instance.

 

[Bing]

I think bones and crimson r the same person.

Edit: and now i am going to be mean. Bing u stopped to late u sounded stupid the sec u made it sound like peach v fox is not at least 60 40 in fox's favor

Saying Fox vs Peach isnt a terrible matchup isnt stupid at all. Look KK just posted it here. Only 1 really bad MU, and thats ICs.

I actually have her at 6th.

And reasonable MUs with everyone but one character is not something the others competing for that spot can really say AFAIK except maybe ICs.

Like get off my *** about Fox vs Peach. -_-

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

60 40 is doable in fact its reasonable so yea not even

 

[JPOBS]

Has leffen ever posted his version of the tier list?
This is nothing related to recent discussions, I'm just genuinely curious

 

[Wake]

I think Bones is heavily biased in the Falco/Peach MU. He's not very good at the MU from watching him play .

 

[Bones0]

I only get to play vs. a Peach once a month (if that), so yeah, I suck vs. her. I realize that I'm just playing the matchup wrong though. I draw most of my conclusions about matchups from what I see from top players.

 

[Bing]

Agreed except for the fact that now people are believing that the Peach v Fox MU is now MAYBE even aswell as the Falcon MU. Regardless I agree, a lot of people(Including myself) have bias lists based off results. If a Peach wins every national, that result bias will come out and suddenly Peach becomes top 3 characters.

Personally I think that She goes even Falcon and Falco, while yes losing to Puff pretty sorely, and slightly losing to Fox and Sheik.

Peach vs Marth on the otherhand Im not sure about... its either 55-45 Marth or even.

Anyways Im done before I make myself sound stupid.

Btw upon further review I dont think Sheik vs peach is really that close.

I think bones and crimson r the same person.

Edit: and now i am going to be mean. Bing u stopped to late u sounded stupid the sec u made it sound like peach v fox is not at least 60 40 in fox's favor

60 40 is doable in fact its reasonable so yea not even

So because I believe Peach vs Fox is 55-45 and you think its 60-40... that makes me stupid?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

So because I believe Peach vs Fox is 55-45 and you think its 60-40... that makes me stupid?

Yes

Edit: maybe just misinformed

Edit 2: shiek v peach is 55 45 in shiek's favor

 

[KirbyKaze]

See, this is why I think numbers in general are stupid.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I actually have her at 6th.

And reasonable MUs with everyone but one character is not something the others competing for that spot can really say AFAIK except maybe ICs.

I don't think Falcon or Marth are that bad for Peach. I think Puff (and to a lesser degree Sheik) are the really tough ones because they're low variance characters and Peach loves little inconsistencies so she can find spots to slot random nairs or whatever. Sheik and Puff also outpace Peach in damage & kill potential for most of the match, which is troublesome for her. Fox I have mixed feelings about.




edit:

When I say "unwinnable" I don't mean "literally cannot be done". It's a mistake on my part but I just mean it's a really big uphill battle and one character is clearly favoured by a lot. Sheik vs Ganon, for instance.

I said top 5, because that typically means shes placed above Marth, a character whose "conventional" matchup spread is top 2-3 level (only loses to Sheik, beats/goes even with everybody else). Now, either that means that those same people put 3-4 Marth matchups far worse than the norm, making his spread worse than Peach's, or there is a fundamental disconnect with their tier lists and their matchup charts.

But still, I don't think that Peach's conventional matchup spread justifies even 6th. The argument for ICs is rock solid, unless Ganon and Samus suddenly have more weight than I'm aware of. And for Falcon, I'm under the impression that his terrible top 3 spread is still viewed to be just as "reasonable" as say, Fox-Peach. I don't want to go into Doc, but his spread is actually rather remarkable at face value as well.

So maybe you have mixed feelings about certain matchups, or you disagree with the collective, but since its the (select) collective who votes on the list, I'd expect the rigidity felt in the matchup discussions to carry over into the tier lists. But it doesn't, so I think people do not have as strong an association as is implied, and the community tier lists aren't merely a condensed and averaged matchup chart like we expect it to be.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I must say, I'm not a fan of the random hate in this thread. Sure, some opinions/views sound silly, but calling someone stupid based on just what they think a matchup is (calling them stupid for their reasoning is different), is pretty silly.

At the very least, Bones is sparking discussion with his different opinions, discussion that might not get this far without it.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Shrouded u do know i dont really have an opinion on his intelligence since i dont know him and we r just talking about arbitrary numbers for mu's right?

 

[Bing]

Shrouded u do know i dont really have an opinion on his intelligence since i dont know him and we r just talking about arbitrary numbers for mu's right?

No you dont, but you sound like an ***.

Hell its not like Im saying its in Peach's favour 70-30 or something ridiculous.

And I agree with Shrouded, Bones lists, while may be "different" it start quite the discussion, desptie the hate he is receiving for it.

 

[Bones0]

It's not random hate. It's just Sweden, who are just reacting to my 48-hour trollfest of Leffen (even though everyone knew he had it coming). I could have posted a tier list they'd be in 100% agreement with, and they'd find something to complain about.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I said top 5, because that typically means shes placed above Marth, a character whose "conventional" matchup spread is top 2-3 level (only loses to Sheik, beats/goes even with everybody else). Now, either that means that those same people put 3-4 Marth matchups far worse than the norm, making his spread worse than Peach's, or there is a fundamental disconnect with their tier lists and their matchup charts.

But still, I disagree that Peach's conventional matchup spread justifies even 6th. The argument for ICs is rock solid, unless Ganon and Samus suddenly have more weight than I'm aware of. And for Falcon, I'm under the impression that his terrible top 3 spread is still viewed to be just as "reasonable" as say, Fox-Peach. I don't want to go into Doc, but his spread is actually rather remarkable at face value as well.

So maybe you have mixed feelings about certain matchups, or you disagree with the collective, but since its the (select) collective who votes on the list, I'd expect the rigidity felt in the matchup discussions to carry over into the tier lists. But it doesn't, so I think people do not have as strong an association as is implied, and the community tier lists aren't merely a condensed and averaged matchup chart like we expect it to be.

I only replied to ensure that my post and opinion was exempt from your views

Your first few bits in the last paragraph summed it up pretty succinctly.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I am just being blunt today b/c i dont feel like being nice or tactful right now.

 

[KirbyKaze]

'cuz you had a bad day

 

[Bing]

Where is the moment we needed the most ?
You kick up the leaves and the magic is lost
You tell me your blue skies fade to grey
You tell me your passion's gone away and I don't need no carryin' on
You stand in the line just to hit a new low
You're faking a smile with the coffee to go
You tell me your life's been way off line
You're falling to pieces everytime and I don't need no carryin' on

Because you had a bad day, you're taking one down
You sing a sad song just to turn it around
You say you don't know, you tell me don't lie
You work at a smile and you go for a ride
You had a bad day, the camera don't lie
You're coming back down and you really don't mind
You had a bad day, you had a bad day

Well, you need a blue sky holiday
The point is they laugh at what you say
And I don't need no carryin' on

You had a bad day, you're taking one down
You sing a sad song just to turn it around
You say you don't know, you tell me don't lie
You work at a smile and you go for a ride
You had a bad day, the camera don't lie
You're coming back down and you really don't mind
You had a bad day, oh... Holiday...

Daniel Powter - Bad Day

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I only replied to ensure that my post and opinion was exempt from your views

Your first few bits in the last paragraph summed it up pretty succinctly.

Yeah, I wasn't calling you out in particular lol (though I see where you got that impression because your "level of completeness" line is exactly what I was talking about haha)

Just the community in general

If you have a different spread for Peach than the consensus (like I do), and can justify her high placement that way, then more power to you.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

2 in a row (not sure if u were just quoting that song)

Edit: looks like bing was on top of that

 

[john!]

i don't know where the term "bones logic" came from. even if he posts stupid reasons for his opinions, it's still better than a good number of people who post their opinion with no justification at all...

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

If a character had 45 55 mu's with all of the top tier and high tier and beat everyone else wouldnt they be considered a viable character who might be above other characters they lose to b/c they have a very solid chance in every mu? (Doesnt quite work for peach since her jiggs, and fox mu is worst then this but its a good question)

 

[KirbyKaze]

So basically a better Doc?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I know very little about doc and his mu spread so idk. This is about how even with a losing mu spread a character could still be better then others overall

 

[Bing]

A character with a lot of losing can be better, but not top tier. Top tiers are there because they win a lot

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh my god Bing made a post that makes complete sense