Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Bing]

One day you will love me David, one day. lmfao

 

[KirbyKaze]

I actually have some suggestions for future combo questions you can ask. And I spread them out to other characters so we can diversify your character boards presence as we bring them up:

1) The merit of d-throw > jab instead of d-throw > regrab / dash attack vs Marth as Sheik on away DI

2) The merit of u-throw > jab instead of u-throw > regrab in CGs vs the FFers (this adds a lot of characters)

3) The merit of d-throw > jab instead of the handoff at the edge with ICs

4) The merit of dair > jab instead of dair > shine at low percents with Falco (esp. vs FFers and Peach)





I have more, but those were by far the most dramatic, poetic, and eloquent.

If you have a different spread for Peach than the consensus (like I do), and can justify her high placement that way, then more power to you.

I can do anything! I'm KirbyKaze! Ninja honor! Shatter foundations! Stuff about Timbits! Rawr!

No but seriously she's still a bit of an enigma to me and I'm still working out the kinks in how I view her MUs. I've been learning a lot about her courtesy of Cactuar and just fiddling with her myself and she seems... really good. Except vs Puff. It feels like her standard neutral game stuff (which is a combination of zoning via turnip into float & footsie with float and basic defensive movement plus a great OOS) works well against just about everything but Puff's mobility & bair.

I feel like a lot of her MUs and stuff can be improved by just adding more moves because a lot of obscure moves are underutilized. There's a lot of little things going on. And her shield. Oh my god her shield. Quite possibly the best shield.

Peach is awesome. I kind of think Falcon's linear gameplay is catching up to him in a lot of ways.

 

[Lovage]

for falcon vs. marth , where should i be looking for uthrow backwards reverse turnaround jabs over uthrow knees? soMEWUN HHHELP

 

[Ripple]

in today's metagame with fox, I feel as though jab is much better since no one follows up shine as often as they should.

jab is still safe, has more range, and a lot easier to follow up with up-smash if it connects at 50%+

 

[Lovage]

when was the last time a good player got hit by jab -> usmash lol

i wish it was still 2008, fox was so much ****in easier

 

[Ripple]

when was the last time a good player got hit by jab -> usmash lol

i wish it was still 2008, fox was so much ****in easier

when was the last time anyone attempted it?

 

[Lovage]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL



ohhh man



lhearuib45iwhy4 ROFLLLLLLLLLLLL


yes. a huge weight was lifted off every peach and puff player's shoulder when m2k locked this high-tech secret strat in the melee vaults, never to be seen again

 

[Max?]

Watching Armada troll bones is pretty good

 

[Dr Peepee]

this is really funny

why is ANYONE mad lmaoaoaoaoa


hey leffen respond to my pm plz

 

[KingofCereal]

Tiers are not necessarily ordered but are deliberate.

S: Fox Falco - Undisputably fastest with ridiculous kills
A: Peach Jigglypuff Sheik - girl power tier, lots of tricks that work
B: Marth Captain Falcon Ice Climbers - Combos and power
C: Ganon Samus Dr. Mario Mario Luigi Pikachu DK Link Young Link - tricks and strategies that can be effective in the right hands. Above this tier the player pool is invariably larger
D: Zelda Roy Mewtwo Mr. Game & Watch Yoshi Ness - If your opponent sucks, you can still win.
E: Pichu Bowser Kirby - garbage tier

 

[Warhawk]

Biggest problem with this list is that there's no way Jigglypuff is a she. Got to be an it.

 

[Wake]

Jigglypuff hatched out of one of those eggs on Brinstar. That disgusting monster...

 

[john!]

Biggest problem with this list is that there's no way Jigglypuff is a she. Got to be an it.

gonna have to disagree with you there.

jigglypuff is an inflatable balloon, and if i've learned anything from japan, it's that an inflatable balloon can be an acceptable substitute for an actual female.

 

[knightpraetor]

well, i rarely weigh in on this thread because by not having fox in the top 3 in my personal tier list i'm obviously totally insane..but i will weigh in on why I think peach deserves top 3 position.

1. peach's hitboxes. dash attack, dsmash, and nair are all freaking broken. in terms of hitboxes she is in every way marth's superior..which is why i've started picking her up...she can wall better than marth except for the lack of dash dance..however, in the modern metagame..this really only seems to help marth a lot on three stages..the big ones, one of which is bad for marth (dreamland)

modern foxes and falcos have gotten very good at punishing dashdancing marths...and on the small platform stages being able to directly compete and outprioritize your opponent instead of giving up space is extremely valuable.

i have a hard time understanding why marth is considered better than peach just off his dashdance alone since his move set isn't really that much better..having a strong wall with laggy ground moves isn't that great honestly..i'd much rather just float again and wall from there..or fling out one of my 3-4 frame moves to block them actually coming in.....

still to be honest if it were just that i would still probably think peach was worse than marth, except for the fact that peach lives forever and isn't comboed quite as badly...and is so much less susceptible to gimps (speaking of which marth would move up in the tier list if marth's could just perfectly space every jump and up b...every time i watch tourneys i cry cause all the top marths drop a stock or two when they didn't have to with a perfectly arced jump into fastfall into angled up b..but they either jump to close or angle up b too high or something...)

2. Smash DI super effective...for me smash DIing out of fox's upair is just a natural part of the game...armada did this two - three times in his sets at the last national and always ***** the fox hard for it...he also smash DI'ed up several nair into shines and then instant dsmashed and killed..i think it was jman?

anyway, i'm just saying..thinking peach is better than marth is not some crazy extreme idea..they are definitely very close both in terms of difficulty of their worst matchup as well as general matchup spread...

while i'm on the topic of peach...i think people also discount the strength of peach's crossover...i spent 4 hours yesterday analyzing a half dozen of armada's matches to learn peach..and it's ridiculous how easily he retakes center stage...

step 1.
float

step 2...land out of range of their moves out of shield or just fair their shield..

step 3...late nair while moving across their shield....see if they have the balls to trade.

step 4...evaluate..if they are sitting in shield too much and punishing your cross over..punish them for sitting in shield...

anyway all the spacies with their supposed godlike matches against peach just kept losing center stage within seconds and then getting gimped because of this

this all works because sitting in shield next to peach is pretty dangerous...

 

[Wake]

No I don't think it's insane to think that Peach could be better than Marth.

 

[Doser]

I'm really confused as to why people think Mario, Luigi, and DK are better than Pikachu.

I guess I'm weird, but I think Pikachu is better than Ganon as well.

 

[Kimimaru]

I'm not sure about Ganon, but I'd say that Pikachu is better than Mario, Luigi, and DK because his recovery is so much better than either of theirs. I also think Yoshi is a little better than DK but even as a Yoshi main I have zero experience in that matchup.

I'd be pretty comfortable now saying that Falco is above Fox. Falco's lasers can be used equally effectively for both offense and defense and thus give him a good advantage over Fox. Also, if Fox is fighting a lighter character his shine will knock the character over, which eliminates most of his shine combo potential, whereas Falco can shine lighter characters off the top of the stage and/or still get quite a bit out of his shine. There's more I can discuss about this but it'd take me way too long to type it all up.

 

[knightpraetor]

gotta admit i'm a little shocked to hear that pikachu is considered below those characters..but i never really concern myself with the tier list below top 5-6..so i probably just never noticed...

kind of amazing how well axe did with pikachu...then fox learned to camp...that's what i remember at least..forget whose fox knocked axe out ...axe too good though

 

[Doser]

The way I see it, is that Pikachu has some really great offensive capabilities along with a top tier recovery. Obviously the problem is that Pikachu is very light and so it can't take much of a beating.

But I feel that a glass canon character gives the possibility of a great player being able to overcome the defensive weaknesses to an extent, while a character like Ganon is crippled with poor mobility and requiring the opponent to make more mistakes to move in meaning that the overall ability to play Ganon cannot be raised as high.

I suppose the results don't obviously support my conclusions considering Axe is the only top Pikachu, but that doesn't invalidate it.

 

[Kimimaru]

But I feel that a glass canon character gives the possibility of a great player being able to overcome the defensive weaknesses to an extent, while a character like Ganon is crippled with poor mobility and requiring the opponent to make more mistakes to move in meaning that the overall ability to play Ganon cannot be raised as high.

I understand what you mean. Game and Watch is a perfect example of a glass canon: He has good range and hits hard, but sadly his tiny shield and feathery weight are too hard to ignore. But even so, he's pretty fast so he can approach more safely and thus doesn't need to wait for the opponent to approach him. Pikachu is very similar and may often need to resort to a hit-and-run playstyle to avoid getting hit as much as possible.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pikachu is way more cohesive than Mr. Game & Watch and significantly less susceptible to death than both him and Ganondorf.

 

[Deleted member]

jigglypuff is a guy cause it falls asleep after it ****s.

 

[Cactuar]

I've been learning a lot about her courtesy of Cactuar and just fiddling with her myself and she seems... really good.

This just sounds really funny for some reason. Sheik main learning a lot about Peach from a Fox main who doesn't really play Peach. Glad I could be of service.

 

[Deleted member]

This just sounds really funny for some reason. Sheik main learning a lot about Peach from a Fox main who doesn't really play Peach. Glad I could be of service.

that's about 3.5 cactuars.

 

[leffen]

It's not random hate. It's just Sweden, who are just reacting to my 48-hour trollfest of Leffen (even though everyone knew he had it coming). I could have posted a tier list they'd be in 100% agreement with, and they'd find something to complain about.

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

first off, its not SWEDEN, its everyone who was on my/armada/beat's trip to Holland->Denmark. (zoler came to denmark which is why he's included)
Pretty much every dutch/danish player we met we're joking and laughing about "bones0" logic and how ******** your tierlist is
However, almost no european smashers are active on the boards, and moreso this ******** thread, thats why you haven't heard anyone talk about it.

Secondly, Armada didn't even know that you had impersonated me until I told him and that was days after bones logic had been coined, and armada was the main force about the term "Bones0" logic (he posted a lot about peach-fox in the thread recently if you recall).
Trust me, Armada/Beat where actually pushing the "Bones0" thing wayyyy more than me (and I know that they would confirm this)


oh, and everyone of the 100+ viewers in the P:M stream all joked about "bones0" logic too, so don't think this is "payback" from a personal thing or w/e.
your tierlist and you are simply stupid enough to warrant a huge amount of people making fun of you.

@trollfest:

that "trollfest" was pathetic and ANYONE could've done it better. Trust me, impersonating me is TERRIBLY easy for obvious reasons and you couldnt even copy anything correctly.
I loved how pathetic you looked for trolling me.
I think its way too much of a coincidence that my posts are short, rude (but contain good information) and gets lots of attention while your useless, but nice, grammatically correct trying-way-too-hard posts always gets ignored (and since youre a no name **** player, you can't get away with it like most)

Maybe it's also the fact that I have played for 2 years and had quite a bit of success, while the supa tryhard you started in 2005 (probably earlier) and still can't make if out of pools at ANYTHING.

and before anyone says no one would be that sad, just look at Bones0 sig; its super
obvious that he loves every bit of validation he gets, regardless of who it comes from.

honestly I feel bad for you, playing this game for so long and trying so hard yet failing so bad
wouldn't like to know how that feels like


I would also like you to answer my points from my previous post, if you could.
Sadly you're probably just gonna run

 

[KingofCereal]

Leffen went from troll to ******* in one post. A new record!

 

[Bones0]

I discovered competitive Smash in '05, but I mostly played Halo until 2008 when I attended my first tournament. I currently reside in the middle of nowhere, so the only thing holding me back is my experience. I have one person near me that plays, and he lives 30 minutes from me. Everything else is at least 2 hours away (it's about 4 hours between DC and Philly, and I'm right in the middle).

As far as not being able to make it out of pools, that's pretty much true. I've only attended 4 tournaments that had pools though... (Pound 5, both Zeniths, and Apex, where I at least got to R2).

The quote in my sig is pure sarcasm. If you had actually bothered to read the context of it, you'd get why I think it's a hilarious quote. lol

 

[leffen]

I have one person near me that plays, and he lives 30 minutes from me. Everything else is at least 2 hours away (it's about 4 hours between DC and Philly, and I'm right in the middle).


this sounds nothing like drpp/armada
o wait

im not gonna go further into your johns for being bad but seriously, you know that you have zero top level experience and yet try to form tier lists after whats easy to get good with? You aren't even close to "good" nor do you play many top lvl players >_>


I would still like you to answer my questions, and I'm glad that you quickly forfeited every john about "Bones0" logic

 

[Deleted member]

yeah whatever, he does that.

bones i hear a lot about your tier list but i don't think i've seen it. let's actually discuss it because **** it boredom.

leffen no one gives a **** about your personal vendetta with whoever pisses you off week by week. let it go.

 

[Warhawk]

I don't even understand what leffen is so upset about lol.

 

[leffen]

im always astounded by the fact that people think that I'm angry everytime I insult someone

I just like seeing their reaction, sheesh

 

[Warhawk]

Actually with you that makes sense lol.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

trolling is so childish lol

kids think they are evil master minds "Mwahaha, young hero, I just wanted to see what you'd do!"

 

[Bones0]

I could have sworn PP and Armada... you know... live with a sibling that is pretty damn good at the game.

I'm not johning about why I'm bad either. I was just correcting your assumption that I've been an active player since '05 and that I'm incapable of improving to even a mediocre level. I also never claimed to be good at the game. In fact, I distinctly remember posting something along the lines of "idk why everyone is freaking out when I post a list as if it were some top level player." I never pretended to know everything, but I guess you can't relate.


@ Umbreon

Falco
Peach
Sheik
Captain Falcon
Marth
Fox
Jigglypuff

Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Samus

Luigi
Mario
Pikachu



Haters gonna hate.

I think I'm pretty happy with this matchup chart.
=: Even
+/-: Slight (dis)advantage
++/--: Fair (dis)advantage

I don't think any top tier matchup is particularly bad. ++/-- would probably be what most people consider 60/40, maybe 65/35. I base my matchups on encounters between strangers who both have a lot of experience in the matchup.

LEFT:TOP | Falco | Peach | Sheik | Falcon | Marth | Fox | Jigglypuff
Falco | | -- | + | + | - | - | -
Peach | ++ | | - | -- | = | + | --
Sheik | - | + | | + | ++ | = | -
Falcon | - | ++ | - | | = | = | =
Marth | + | = | -- | = | | + | +
Fox | + | - | = | = | - | | +
Jigglypuff | + | ++ | + | = | - | -

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

For the sake of transparency...

[collapse=Compiled Preliminary Tier List]S:
Fox 1.57
Falco 1.86

A:
Sheik 3.14
Marth 4.43
Puff 4.64
Peach 5.79

B:
Falcon 7.00
ICs 7.93
Doc 8.86

C:
Samus 10.64
:ganonmelee:Ganon 11.36
Pikachu 11.86
Luigi 12.85 (1 abstain)
Mario 13.71

D:
DK 15.46 (1 abstain)
Y Link 16.29
Link 16.38 (1 abstain)
Zelda 18.08 (1 abstain)
Yoshi 18.85 (1 abstain)

E:
Roy 20.67 (2 abstain) / Mewtwo 20.67 (2 abstain)
:gwmelee:G&W 21.33 (2 abstain)
Ness 22.54 (1 abstain)

F:
Kirby 24.15 (1 abstain)
Bowser 24.25 (1 abstain)
Pichu 24.62 (1 abstain)[/collapse]

This is before the discussion has begun. Feel free to hold public discussions and critiques of this list and we will try to take things into account.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Sveet why would zelda be above yoshi? Idk much about zelda but it seems to me yoshi's tools r better. So if someone could just explain to me what zelda has that puts her higher or what keeps yoshi below her i would be grateful

 

[darkatma]

Leffen reminds me of 2006 smasher Neighborhood P (now Likewise) haha

Lots of insults and abrasive speech, but if you can dig through that, you often find sound advice and realize a lot of the stuff he says (at least about gameplay) is usually spot on.

I'm afraid to dig through this thread because I only trust good player opinions, because I'm elitist like that

 

[Kimimaru]

Sveet why would zelda be above yoshi? Idk much about zelda but it seems to me yoshi's tools r better. So if someone could just explain to me what zelda has that puts her higher or what keeps yoshi below her i would be grateful

I'm going to go out on a limb and make the assumption that he's not familiar with most low tiers so he kept them in pretty much the same spots. However, I'd say that Yoshi is definitely better than Zelda and maybe better than Young Link (personally I think he's even better than DK but we don't have enough Yoshi results).

 

[leffen]

I have already realized some needed changes btw Sveet, I'll add those in later.


Both me and Armada put yoshi like this basically
^top tiers, falco fox etc
Falcon
Doc
Pika
Yoshi
Samus
Luigi
v low tiers, ganon mario etc
I was disgusted by the fact that people put him under roy


also: Why is falcon the *** under ICs? (I put ICs 5th btw, over puff and peach)
why is ganon over luigi and pika

 

[Deleted member]

bones:

-why is falcon so high?

-how is peach advantaged on falco? we've seen little evidence to support that the MU is anything but even.

-why are fox and jigglypuff so low?

-how is falcon advantaged on peach?

I guess what really gets me is how falcon is so high. I have him all the way down to 9th on my personal list.