Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Of course it's hypothetical!
What's wrong with a hypothetical viewpoint?
Like it or not, theory (read: conjecture) is a staple part of any competitive game, from sports to chess to FGs. Theory is there to make people think. Just because it's not the status quo or something that shares your personal view out of some cheap sense of vindication, doesn't mean that it should be discredited by the nature of it's composition.

Instead of pointing out the obvious, think about it for a second. Yeah our views differ, that's the entire point, to challenge. Are you going to write it off because it's relatively radical?

Ｆ***　ｉｔ．

gg smash community
think outside the box = idiocy

sveet already said it very well but i want to as well.

u r mistaking thinking outside the box and being wrong. one can think outside the box and end up being wrong but they should have a reason for the path they took, u r just saying something with no rhyme or reason (at least not good ones)

 

[stelzig]

It is kinda silly to keep saying it is super theory bros. not to go purely by results though. At least with the connotation the phrase has in this community. No one is trying to make a tier list based on what is possible, but what on they believe is realistically/humanly possible - and it is based on today's metagame, but not consistency and skill levels of the people who use the characters.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with trying to think a little instead of just making a boring results based tier list/matchups (which we already know and can find out easily on our own) - the funny thing here is that now i'm exaggerating too, because as far as I can tell, no one wants to base the list ENTIRELY on results either, so it's like... You guys are telling people to stop doing what you are already doing yourself, just to a smaller degree.

Edit: It would be/is kinda annoying if you just get shot down with "no cause... Results." every time you want to discuss an idea/theory on a matchup.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I've never understood the struggle smashers seem to have reconciling results-based and theory-based tier lists. You have to use a mix of both methods; using either one exclusively is folly.

Did you really just say that i can't handle an out of the box theory? Seriously, do you know who you are talking about?

I am simply asking for you to back up your theory. I could say that hypothetically gravity doesn't exist and the only reason we stand grounded is because Satan is constantly trying to drag our souls into hell, which is located in the center of the earth. You would go to the experts (scientists) and they would be able to give you a good number of reasons why my theory doesn't fit. In the case of this discussion, the experts have come and personally debunked your theory. Maybe the one who should be self-reflecting is you.

yooo

dat ether

the **** that makes your soul burn slow

 

[JPOBS]

Edit: It would be/is kinda annoying if you just get shot down with "no cause... Results." every time you want to discuss an idea/theory on a matchup.

It would be/is kinda annoying if you just get shot down with "no cause....status quo from 3 years ago" every time you want to discuss an idea/theory on a matchup.

 

[odinNJ]

its really annoyinh when you want to camly discuss matchups in a friendly way and then someone gos "YOURE NEW SHUT UP". even when some other older people agree with my ideas.

just sayin

 

[Battlecow]

yo the scandinavians are going in on results in their stream right now

they are not happy with the fox-peach talk going on here

 

[john!]

yo the scandinavians are going in on results in their stream right now

they are not happy with the fox-peach talk going on here

haters gonna hate

scandinavians gonna... scandal

 

[Bing]

haters gonna hate

scandinavians gonna... scandal

Yo I lol'd


But seriously this Peach-Fox debate has gone like.. nowhere in days... I think we should take a breather, pick another MU, and come back to it

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

JPOBS was wrong

Peach-Fox isn't the new Sheik-Falcon

Its the new Mewtwo-Zelda

 

[Bing]

So how about that Marth vs Falco?

 

[ViperGold42]

So how about that Marth vs Falco?

I think Falco wins but slightly. the lazers and shine really wreck havoc on Marth's grab and approach

 

[Lovage]

As I said earlier, its not only Armada performing well. Peachs in general have been beating foxs recently, and a lot of that is probably due to studying armada vids and implementing some stuff.

We already agree armada is the best player in the world. But other peachs seem to be winning this "65-35" matchup convincingly as well.

nope.com lol

not only does fox actually have a good matchup against peach, peach players besides armada like...never win that matchup anymore lol. (ludicrously biased statement cuz i havn't lost to a peach in tourny in years lol)

the mediocre fox player of 2012 is pretty ****ing consistent with his drillshine -> usmashes, his uthrow uairs, and even his edge guarding (the biggest part of the matchup at lower level play.) how advanced is the mediocre 2012 peach? the mediocre 2012 peach is baka4moe and baka4moe ****ing sucks ***

tournament results mean a damn lot, but it doesn't take a ****in vet. to realize that armada is ****** all these foxes around the globe because he is on a completely different level of gameplay from them, NOT the matchup. there are really a small handful of people who can give armada a challenge right now. and at the moment none of them are actually fox mains except arguably mango.

SSBM is played in venues, not vacuums.

and lol, dude don't swagger jack somebody else's saying if ur gonna use it absolutely wrong


TRIPLE FLABBERGASTED EDIT:::

It would be/is kinda annoying if you just get shot down with "no cause....status quo from 3 years ago" every time you want to discuss an idea/theory on a matchup.

wait what? LOL. as armada pointed out, you havn't offered one bit of discussion or argument about how the matchup is actually played at high-level, u just saw sum results and formed your opinion - pretty odd lol

 

[ShroudedOne]

There isn't a Fox main nor a Peach main worth their salt who would tell you Peach goes even/beats Fox. It's harder for Peach to outspace/outmaneuver Fox than it is for Fox to work his basic tech skill.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Oscar I agree with your overall point but your argument would make a lot more sense if baka wasn't consistently getting top 3-5 in our locals lol

Its not like we have a mediocre Fox getting similar results

[sidenote: I think you oughta know the last time you lost to a Peach in tournament]

 

[Lovage]

name a fox player in socal thats good that isn't me or lucky

lol, i'm not even talking **** about socal, we just aren't an area that has fox players anymore, for no particular reason afaik

socal is land of the falcos, falcons, peaches, and our collection of the very best of the weird (hugs fly eddy)


edit: just realized what u meant by that sidenote ROFL. ummm if that counts for u then kool beans lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

Canada is the last of everything but Ice Climbers and lower.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yeah, but you and Joey are two of the best Foxes to ever play the game lol. I thought we were talking about mediocre Foxes.

I agree we don't have many mediocre Foxes in Socal (just a few really amazing ones and then a bunch of bad) but, even outside of Socal, I don't see (m)any mediocre Foxes doing as well as Baka. On the real, if you take any B to C level Fox and put him against Baka...I'd bet on Baka cause hes just gonna 0-death them.

I think what JPOBS was saying is that Armada is wrecking everyone at the tippy top level, Vanz-Vwins-MacD-DoH-Bladewise are holding their own (at least going even with Foxes of their level), and the mediocre Peaches are doing well too. I don't like using results exclusively, so I don't agree with the conclusion, but at the very least, I don't think saying "peach players besides armada like...never win that matchup anymore" is very accurate...

...
...

[sidenote: it doesn't. I just thought it was funny LOL]

 

[JPOBS]

nope.com lol

not only does fox actually have a good matchup against peach, peach players besides armada like...never win that matchup anymore lol. (ludicrously biased statement cuz i havn't lost to a peach in tourny in years lol)

the mediocre fox player of 2012 is pretty ****ing consistent with his drillshine -> usmashes, his uthrow uairs, and even his edge guarding (the biggest part of the matchup at lower level play.) how advanced is the mediocre 2012 peach? the mediocre 2012 peach is baka4moe and baka4moe ****ing sucks ***

tournament results mean a damn lot, but it doesn't take a ****in vet. to realize that armada is ****** all these foxes around the globe because he is on a completely different level of gameplay from them, NOT the matchup. there are really a small handful of people who can give armada a challenge right now. and at the moment none of them are actually fox mains except arguably mango.

I agree with you overall but my point was that its not just armada. i said earlier that Vwins, Bladewise, etc are handling stuff in their regions too.

and lol, dude don't swagger jack somebody else's saying if ur gonna use it absolutely wrong

Lol i totally jacked that from you MY BAD my dude. i didnt think u read this thread haha sorry.

wait what? LOL. as armada pointed out, you havn't offered one bit of discussion or argument about how the matchup is actually played at high-level, u just saw sum results and formed your opinion - pretty odd lol

Nah, thats not what happened. I broke it down a few pages back why fox isn't that strong (imo) because of his lack of range/combo breakers/fragility etc. But my point with comment you quoted is that, on the real for real, whenever you even TRY to discuss new ideas, people in general are really stubborn and adhere really strongly to the old status quo. Same thing with my discussions about marth earlier in this thread, its really hard to get people to think about new things sometimes.

I think what JPOBS was saying is that Armada is wrecking everyone at the tippy top level, Vanz-Vwins-MacD-DoH-Bladewise are holding their own (at least going even with Foxes of their level), and the mediocre Peaches are doing well too. I don't like using results exclusively, so I don't agree with the conclusion, but at the very least, I don't think saying "peach players besides armada like...never win that matchup anymore" is very accurate...

Yup. And to add, my only point is that peach players in general go about even with fox players in tourny across many regions, so I don't see why people think its such an atrocious matchup. If the matchup was so bad, peachs wouldn't be as successfull as they are. I don't see why its such a big deal to point that out. Its not like im saying peach > fox.

 

[Doc King]

Is there ever gonna be another tier list? Or is this gonna be considered the Official and final tier list? I hear stuff like Peach and Young Link should be higher and Fox should be lower, but it looks like nothing much has changed.

 

[unknown522]

Never!

 

[Doc King]

Never!

All Hail Fox the King of Melee!

 

[Lovage]

Is there ever gonna be another tier list? Or is this gonna be considered the Official and final tier list? I hear stuff like Peach and Young Link should be higher and Fox should be lower, but it looks like nothing much has changed.

i mean, games ****in 10 years old, metagame has stabilized quite a bit. we keep getting surprised when people push characters to their limits, but the general form of the list is largely the same.

any changes you see will be pretty obvious. peach has a good chance at moving up a spot or two, puff will definitely drop a few rungs, y. link is going to rise even if he literally only ***** puff (which isn't true, y.link is pretty sick overall.)


and expect some usual low/bottom tier re-shuffling because no one actually knows what those characters do

 

[Doc King]

i mean, games ****in 10 years old, metagame has stabilized quite a bit. we keep getting surprised when people push characters to their limits, but the general form of the list is largely the same.

any changes you see will be pretty obvious. peach has a good chance at moving up a spot or two, puff will definitely drop a few rungs, y. link is going to rise even if he literally only ***** puff (which isn't true, y.link is pretty sick overall.)


and expect some usual low/bottom tier re-shuffling because no one actually knows what those characters do

I see what you mean. Like there will be very minimum changes but not many. Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach, Falcon will still dominate for sure.

Low tiers sometimes ppl can figure out stuff and it can work like Armada Young Link.

Melee 4 Ever!

 

[odinNJ]

roy v
ylink ^
yoshi ^
kirby v
luigi ^
doc v i think, id like to see samus above him

these are just my opinions, dont kill meh pls

 

[Jockmaster]

Ehhh Doc is going up a couple before he gets passed by Samus.

Idk I think Samus is real overrated

 

[odinNJ]

lol i always thought she was underated
going to locals samus is pretty popular and lots of people think shes good

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Samus is bad.

 

[Bones0]

Samus is just a Peach without a float and fair.

 

[twizzlerj]

Samus is just a Peach without a float and fair.

lol even thats pushing it i would love to get good with samus it looks fun but she doesn't seem that good

 

[Warhawk]

Idk I think Samus is real overrated

Huh, overrated? I dunno, maybe its just me but I seem to hear more talk about Samus being bad than Samus being good.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Canada Smash Tier List

After discussing this at length with weon-X and Unknown522, this is what we came up with

Peach
Falco
Fox
Jigglypuff
Marth
Sheik

Ice Climbers
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Doctor Mario
Pikachu

Ganon
Samus
Mewtwo
Mario
Link
Luigi
DK

Other characters

Discuss.

 

[Max?]

Jigglypuff twice....

Mewtwo above a bunch of other characters that are probably better than him....

Icies above Falcon....

Peach #1....


Looks good to me.

 

[Mahone]

i like that there are 2 jigglypuffs...

the more jigglypuffs the better

 

[Kimimaru]

Jigglypuff is on there twice, lol. I'd probably put Sheik above Marth, Falcon above Ice Climbers, and move Mewtwo down a lot. I also think DK and Luigi should be higher than Link and Yoshi should be right under DK.

 

[JPOBS]

Seems legit.

 

[unknown522]

That's the best list ever

 

[ShroudedOne]

I dunno...I'm kinda skeptical. I mean, after all, I don't wanna meatride that list just because it was posted by someone established in the community.

I shall therefore reject it on abstract principle.

 

[unknown522]

You know you're just rejecting it cuz you're a peach main

 

[Wake]

Psh why reject it because of that?! I for one would love to be able to take Peach to that number one spot!

 

[iRobinhoood]

Luigi second to last?