Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Saying fox wins a mu is not the same as being on his ****, also if u look i call the mu 60/40. There is a difference from being on someones **** and being realistic

 

[Bing]

Saying fox wins a mu is not the same as being on his ****, also if u look i call the mu 60/40. There is a difference from being on someones **** and being realistic

Okay I'll go with this.

Realisticly speaking. The MU goes to Fox. like I just said 60/40 or 55-45

Now I personally feel that Peach is taking over the MU and within the near future. Its going to be 55-45 Peach.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

regarding the ability to understand the game w/o being top level, it really depends on what you consider top level. i can think of someone who is a very good player (hyuga), but not a "top" player, and i respect his opinion on the order of (much) stronger players, and i often respect it more. matches are not just a contest of who understands the game the best. we all have eyes and i think there's a certain level of ability past which, it's difficult use overall skill as a proxy for "understanding of the game" b/c so many other things are being tested when people play, e.g. spatiotemporal reasoning, reaction time etc

so i guess i agree in part that there is some requisite level of skill necessary to be able to assess what's going on, but i don't think you need to be exactly on a top player's level to possess comparable understanding of what's going on

I agree! There are limitations to that general advanced knowledge though... The way I see it, there is a a break in skill level between people who play the game the right way and those that don't. I just think there are too many people commenting here that are from a certain side

 

[~Twitch~]

Saying fox wins a mu is not the same as being on his ****, also if u look i call the mu 60/40. There is a difference from being on someones **** and being realistic

yo...you really need to gtfo reality's ****.

 

[Mahone]

can someone explain how puff ***** peach?

im not saying this in a sarcastic way, i do believe puff wins, i just genuinely have no idea where this unwinnable matchup stuff comes from... what do you do that ***** her so hard?

i watch hbox vs armada and i mean he does well, but its always last stock and seems close to me, but then armada says its like 65-35 or 60-40 and peaches worst mu, so i must be missing something

edit: twitch do u even play anymore lol

 

[JPOBS]

But at the same time, if you've never played at the top level you don't actually understand the game and thus your opinions don't really matter.

This argument is flawed for a number of reasons. To point out a few:

1. Just because you are a top player, does not at all mean you are good at articulating your argument, nor does it mean you necessarily hold an opinion that others would share. For example, and I don't mean to put anyone on blast, but m2k FREQUENTLY throws around opinions that the community at large simply disagrees with. Just because you're a top level player doesn't mean you are the only one with a valid opinion.

2. There are people who aren't top level, but live in regions with top level players and frequently interact with them who have a knowledge base good enough to have opinions. For eample, and again I don't mean to put you on blast sveet, but you yourself aren;t even close to top level, nor have you ever been. Yet, I (and others im sure) take your posts with high regard because you articulate your opinion well.

There are only a tiny few "top level" posters who even use the forums (or melee discussion). If only they were allowed to talk, we would literally only have like PP, KK, and occationally armada talking about things.

I agree that sometimes having an overwhelming quantity of 2012 posters spamming the boards can get annoying, but whats even more annoying is when hot shots like DoH come in, and don't even contribute to the discussion AT ALL, except to say "man, you guys are bad, and you should feel bad".

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Dude, I am top level, you don't even know.

 

[~Twitch~]

edit: twitch do u even play anymore lol

i pretty sure i'm goin to a tourney this weekend.

 

[JPOBS]

Dude, I am top level, you don't even know.

Word. My bad homie.

 

[Bones0]

can someone explain how puff ***** peach?

im not saying this in a sarcastic way, i do believe puff wins, i just genuinely have no idea where this unwinnable matchup stuff comes from... what do you do that ***** her so hard?

i watch hbox vs armada and i mean he does well, but its always last stock and seems close to me, but then armada says its like 65-35 or 60-40 and peaches worst mu, so i must be missing something

edit: twitch do u even play anymore lol

Armada says it's horrible, and I'm pretty sure Hbox said it's slight Jiggs, so I'm just taking their word for it that the matchup is slight Jiggs (due to Armada bias). lol

What do you think of Puff-Falco? I feel like no one really knows WTF is going on with that matchup because so many Falco players just go Fox except PP, but you can't just base the matchup entirely off of PP vs. Hbox (or can you?).

 

[past_b]

Armada says it's horrible, and I'm pretty sure Hbox said it's slight Jiggs, so I'm just taking their word for it that the matchup is slight Jiggs (due to Armada bias). lol

one can call hbox's statement about jiggs being a slight favorite to be biased as well.

 

[Mahone]

ya i think its slight puff personally but id love to know why its worse...

falco puff is slight puff imo... i think its too hard for the falco to maintain a wall and keep puff out and falco has a really hard time killing puff, i think falco can just grind puff out, but in practice all falcos, even pp make enough mistakes that puff can usually get easy rests and edgeguards and win...

its still a pretty annoying matchup for both characters though

 

[odinNJ]

I agree that sometimes having an overwhelming quantity of 2012 posters spamming the boards can get annoying, .

and i used to wonder why this was a small community

 

[Ripple]

Roy mains can also be a little annoying

 

[Bones0]

one can call hbox's statement about jiggs being a slight favorite to be biased as well.

Yeah, definitely, it could be worse than he says, but I don't think there's enough data to really tell since he's the only real top level Jiggs.

ya i think its slight puff personally but id love to know why its worse...

falco puff is slight puff imo... i think its too hard for the falco to maintain a wall and keep puff out and falco has a really hard time killing puff, i think falco can just grind puff out, but in practice all falcos, even pp make enough mistakes that puff can usually get easy rests and edgeguards and win...

its still a pretty annoying matchup for both characters though

Yeah, I feel pretty much the same. The matchup when I play seems fine, but then I make one mistake, take a bair to the beak, and suddenly I have to go into defcon 1.

 

[Mahone]

thats exactly how i would of put it.

thank you bones...

thank you.

 

[Mew2King]

For example, and I don't mean to put anyone on blast, but m2k FREQUENTLY throws around opinions that the community at large simply disagrees with. Just because you're a top level player doesn't mean you are the only one with a valid opinion.

your logic sucks, because i share an uncommon opinion it is suddenly less valid? I base things off my experience and knowledge up to that point in time, and always say what I think. This is much better than following the masses like sheep/bandwagoners (most people). I always hear "fox counters sheik" but my sheik has ***** jman/javi/lucky before pretty solidly so of course I am not going to agree (I think it's pretty even more or less, same w/ marth vs fox). I base things off my knowledge and experience up to that point in time, which is how things SHOULD BE when talking about the tier list, which is how good and dangerous those characters are known and shown to be at top of current metagame.

 

[JPOBS]

i didnt say your opinion was less valid bro. I said that pros don't have the only valid opinions, because sometimes they have opinions which go against the status quo. If anything, i was encouraging you.

 

[Armada]

To much stupid things going around in this thread so will just make this post kinda short.

1: Peach vs Fox is NOT close to even. The fact that pretty much everyone in Europe play fox against me all the time/often gives me so much experience (more then any other fox will ever have against Peach).

Just because me/some Peaches are doing kinda good dosen't mean she wins. People use results in tournaments to much to base their opinions.

The fact that Peach can combo fox pretty good is true but useing that argument is terrible (a lot of chars have way easier/better combos at fox)

So if people are so biased becasue of results I don't even see a reason to explain why the MU is not close to even (and Peachs favor is tbh one of the most sadly comments I have ever been reading).

2: Why Puff is good against Peach.

She is a bit better at everything pretty much.

-She has better range is also faster in the air and her arieal move (bair) is much faster then Peachs best spaceing move (fair).

- Ten times easier for Puff to get in on Peach then the other way around

-She has better combos (even without rest)

- She has a way easier time to edgeguard Peach then the other way around

A lot of hard MUs is beeing played by top players to use the things your own char actually is better at then the other chars but the fact that the only thing Peach really is better then Puff at in the MU is to survive (if she don't rest you) means that have have to work so much harder in every situation and that makes the MU really hard.

Edit: ****ing Marc to change my avatar and useing ****ing Carrol on it =(
Hate you man

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Armada wtf is this ****. You havent earned an avatar yet noob!

 

[john!]

wow armada just took a huge **** on this entire thread LOL

 

[JPOBS]

of cours ehe did. Didnt you read the part about only pros having valid opinions?

 

[KingofCereal]

JPOBS so salty.

 

[JPOBS]

I will **** you with a rake.

 

[KingofCereal]

Nah I'm with you. I wish I was a top player. Never gonna happen. Old dogs, new tricks, don't work. Wish I had a valid opinion on this game, or even a single placing above last.

 

[Armada]

Im not saying or trying to say only pros can have a valid opinion.
I think it is a better chance they might have a "valid" one cause they usually have more experience at high level play exc.

Not saying other people should not say/explain what they think and why.

But the thing about the tierlist is just that it is so old with people changeing opinions like that just becasue of results.

Trying to actually understand something before you have seen it in matches is one thing people should try to do more.

Don't like to take myself as a example but in this one I have. For example me picking Y link against Hbox. 99% of the community would say the MU was not close to even (except for a few Y link mains and possible some random puff).

This is just becasue many players don't try to understand WHY stuff works or not and then it becomes hard to actually judge MU if you base your opinions on pretty much only results and not understanding.

If you can't/ not try to understand you opinions will FOR SURE be biased becasue of results.

 

[Strong Badam]

sup amanda

 

[DoH]

I never said you can't have valid opinions if you're not a top player, but my post was rather that if you guys were off playtesting these things and getting matchup experience it would be better than making declarations and assumptions about matchups for characters you don't play

 

[KingofCereal]

I mean I don't actually know anything beyond the obvious/what people have been saying forever, and this invalidates my opinion. I don't know why I post sometimes. At least I never make wild generalizations. Never.

 

[unknown522]

fox v peach is definitely at least 6-4.

his camping/run away is too powerful vs her.

As much as I would love to be hyper aggro vs a good peach, it's just not worth it

 

[Bones0]

fox v peach is definitely at least 6-4.

his camping/run away is too powerful vs her.

As much as I would love to be hyper aggro vs a good peach, it's just not worth it

Can you make a post on the Fox boards about how to play campy Fox? I feel like everyone cites this mythical creature, but no one actually implements it because it doesn't work in practice. It seems like it works great if they are at high % and can't approach safely, but otherwise you just land a few lasers while they completely shut down your angles of escape and force you into bad positions. After all, you can't win just by running away (at least not on any of the 5 neutrals or PS).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The problem isn't the character, its human nature. Quick input (technical) fox psychologically leads to less patience or more pressure to act when put in a pressure situation.

 

[knightpraetor]

lately i've been less concerned with tiers and more concerned with scarcity.....i used to think that I had an advantage over mahone cause there are less sheiks than there are foxes but now i think it's the other way around...the best thing is to play a character whose worst matchup is very common..then you just get 10 times more experience than your opponent and are likely to just wreck most players anyways...while if you don't get to practice in your bad matchup enough..even if it's rare you're just going to get wrecked when it comes up....

it's worse cause everyone keeps wanting to play falco against me but i'm freaking bored with that dumb matchup..my vs falco is like 3 times better than my other matchups except for marth jiggs....lately i keep sandbagging all matches after the first 2 or so against falcos cause it's the only way to get them to quit playing falco..once they establish in their mind that they can beat me with falco they'll switch and then i finally get the practice i want.

on a side note, that's why i never ask pp to play falco vs me...i would much much rather get some decent fox practice in. Pity pp doesn't pull out sheik more often and give me pointers..but whatever

also i agree with bones..campy fox vs peach sucks..they try to do that then fail and get gimped..i only think it works when peach leaves CC percents and at death percents when bair is decent.

that said i don't think hyper aggression is really a good answer either....oh well someone will figure out the right balance eventually

 

[Sukai]

I agree that sometimes having an overwhelming quantity of 2012 posters spamming the boards can get annoying

Our community is actually generally accepting of new people.

snnnnnnnippity

fufufufufu
I'm gonna stir the pot here.

You say that you beat Fox players through an overwhelming supremacy of experience.
How much of this is your personal tools vs Fox and how much is you simply discovering tools to use against Fox with your character?

Sounds a bit confusing, but hear me out.

How many other Peach players have as much Fox experience as you do? What exactly is experience? Is it taking advantage of player habits? Or is it counter attacking/compromising the character's options?

Really, both are highly valuable to the overall match up, because really if the match up was really bad, no amount of experience would make anyone believe it's even. You may perform better than the average player, but you wouldn't excel at it so well. Unless you're far better than these Fox players.

For example, everyone knows that Roy vs Marth makes Roy players cry tears of war, and it goes without saying that unless the skill gap was that big, Roy will always have noticeable problems in that match up, regardless of experience. If a Roy player pops up and somehow starts clashing heads with top Marth players, this will definitely make people re-think the match up. 2 points from this.

1. If the match up is disadvantageous, it will show itself at any level of play.
   
2. If you're making the match up look even or advantageous, unless you're claiming to be downright better than your opponents in question, then maybe you are in fact changing the scope of the match up. It's not guaranteed, after all you could simply be far better than these top Fox players, but it's a possibility.

Furthermore, you say that observing results are inconsequential without understanding. That's a phrase similar to an oxymoron, because observing results is an attempt at understanding. How do we determine match ups? Two main ways everyone can agree on;
First hand experience
Second hand spectating

First hand experience is always the way to go, since seeing and experiencing are vastly different, but that doesn't instantly discredit seeing. That's how some of us determine match ups. We watch two players of supposed equal skill play each other, we see what goes down.

Now what we see is you going even with Fox at worst. Do we see why? Yeah, people have been talking about "why" for pages. We see that it was the Fox player who had to adjust himself to stand a better chance, and he didn't dominate, he just didn't get his butt ran in. That could be inexperience, or it could be a slight evolution in the match up. Unless Fox actually has tools to deal with the way you use Peach effectively enough to truly show the dominance, you've rewritten a page in the big book of smash. It all comes down to a single question, "Could you see other Peach players operating the same vs Fox and succeeding?"

If the answer is yes, then I think that you just changed how we see and Fox players play the match up.

Again Fox players in America could simply be free to you, in which case, exposed.

 

[The Star King]

Edit: ****ing Marc to change my avatar and useing ****ing Carrol on it =(
Hate you man

LMFAO 10/10 admin troll

/saw England vs Sweden in person

 

[Jolteon]

Again Fox players in America could simply be free to you, in which case, exposed.

Why does no one else accept that this is a viable outcome?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

1. If the match up is disadvantageous, it will show itself at any level of play.
   
2. If you're making the match up look even or advantageous, unless you're claiming to be downright better than your opponents in question, then maybe you are in fact changing the scope of the match up. It's not guaranteed, after all you could simply be far better than these top Fox players, but it's a possibility.

1) I disagree with completely. In fact you are contradicting yourself, by basically saying "yes fox vs peach is really good for fox until you get to armada's level where its even." I could think of other examples such as marth destroyyyyyyyying spacies at low skill levels while they happen to be marth's 2nd hardest match-ups after sheik at the higher levels.

2) how would you go about quantifying this difference in skill? This is where I value highly people who have shown themselves to understand the game (either through their posts or through their gameplay). If you can't tell me why the result of a single game was the way it was, then how can you attempt to extract any amount of data from the results?

I have come to realize that you are likely just throwing out hypotheticals. Your argument has been "Well Armada could be that good or he could be playing a match-up that is secretly in favor of his character". You haven't really done any proving of your point, although you seem to continue the argument anyways. I could say that using occam's razor, the former is more likely to be true. I could say that the community on the whole disagrees with you. Either way, the burden of proof is on you. I would respectfully ask you to cease this argument until you want to discuss something other than hypothetical notions.

 

[choknater]

when i play fox vs peach i like to bair a lot and utilt and run away

then when she tries to do stuff and get close, that's when i try to be ballsy and nair or drillshine or something

but sometimes i lose those trades, and then lose the game. LOLOL

but i hate running away forever. should i?

 

[Zoler]

This is getting stupid, people Armada has like five times more experience than any fox player in the peach matchup, AT LEAST five times. Just watch him play, he is x10 more consistent than any other player with his combos and everything else. >_>

STOP going by just results god damnit and just watching smash on youtube, and play the game, if it isn't obvious to you that fox ***** peach then, it's sad.

 

[choknater]

lol that's the thing though

we do play the game, we play fox, and we have a hard time with good peaches.