Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Fortress | Sveet]

No offense, but that was me.

In 2 or 3 years people will have figured out what armada is doing right now to be so consistently successful, just like for m2k and mango in the past. One thing I've noticed is his ability to maximize damage output. In a metagame where everyone good has damage output that is as good as his is now, would fox and falco be better or worse?

While were at it, lets be honest with the trends in our current metagame. For the past year or two, we have seen peach go even in her two hardest match-ups, Fox and Marth. We've also seen Sheik go even in her worst match-ups, Fox, Falco and Puff. At the same time we've seen foxes drop off and marth "go even with" (read: lose to) everyone in the top 5. Fox #1 is nostalgic and theoretical all at once, but results don't really show that right now. Maybe Javi will win FC, but until then, no.

not that i agree with that idea, necessarily, but it seems that a lot of people are simply building off of it these days

 

[JPOBS]

when was that post made?

I dont actually care by the way. I'm just glad more and more people are thinking about the tier list in alternative ways these days.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

In what world sveet is marth one of peach's 2 hardest mu's? I think u meant fox and jiggs and i have not seen any peach's go even with jiggs atm.

Also as some of u might remember i made a tier list a couple days or a week back. Anyway that was my guess what the next tier list would most likely look like. Later maybe today i am going to make a tier list of what i think it should be.

 

[Zoler]

Marth was peaches hardest matchup in 2006.

It's been Jiggs, fox, falcon for many years now.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I wouldn't bother arguing against my post from 2 months ago

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

But thats just it it was only 2 months ago. As zoler said 2006 marth was peach's hardest mu 2 months ago it was still fox, jiggs, and maybe falcon (jury still out on falcon for me)

Edit: on the other hand u shouldnt hold someone accountable for every thing they say or post, mistakes get made and opinions change

 

[Bones0]

I'd say Peach's hardest matchups are Jiggs, Falcon, then Marth.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I'd say Peach's hardest matchups are Jiggs, Falcon, then Marth.

I am going to have to disagree with u. Using my own experience as a peach main, as well as the mu discussions we have had on the peach boards and the mu ratios that armada has given i would say marth is not that bad for peach. Many in fact believe the mu to be 55/45 in marths favor while 65/35 r the usual ratios given to both fox and jigss. The ratio vs falcon is often more debated but is usually considered harder then fighting marth

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But thats just it it was only 2 months ago. As zoler said 2006 marth was peach's hardest mu 2 months ago it was still fox, jiggs, and maybe falcon (jury still out on falcon for me)

Edit: on the other hand u shouldnt hold someone accountable for every thing they say or post, mistakes get made and opinions change

no offense, but i don't hold zoler as a leading expert in peach's match-ups. I was giving you guys an out to not continue this line of conversation. Personally, I don't even share those ideas anymore, my opinion on the issue changes about a week after that post was made. My opinion changes constantly, and I consider that to be healthy improvement.

As for match-ups, yes puff is probably one of peach's worst, and not mentioning it was probably an oversight. Again, that post was made 2 months ago.

The point of recalling that post was simply to wave my e-peen in JPOBS' face. No need to get all "debatey" on me

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Sveet i covered what u said in my edit (an edit which was made b4 your post just so no one thinks i am trying to sneak **** in). Also i was only using zoler b/c i agreed with him

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Guys guys, no need to get all heated over this. Can't we just be friends until Cactuar or KK post at which point we will swoon over their words and compliment them to no end?

 

[JPOBS]

i think the peach vs fox matchup is the most overrated matchup in the game. Its like the new age sheik vs falcon.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Guys guys, no need to get all heated over this. Can't we just be friends until Cactuar or KK post at which point we will swoon over their words and compliment them to no end?

Yea thats fine, i just wanted u to know after my 1st post i reconsidered b/c as u said your post was old, and i realized it was pointless to hold u to what u had said or put u on blast or whatever, but at the same time the post was made so i figured an edit was the best way to go about this.

Now your post has reminded me i have not swooned nearly enough for this month so i guess i need to wait from one of them to post so i can catch up to my normal amount

 

[Bones0]

Actually, I forgot about Sheik. Jiggs, Falcon, Sheik, then Marth.

I agree with JPOBS that Fox vs. Peach being 60-40 is ridiculous. It's at least even, if not slightly in Peach's favor (I would say even).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox destroys peach. Idk what you're smoking.

 

[JPOBS]

I find it difficult to believe fox "destroys" peach, when peach players routinely beat fox players of their caliber. Armada beat mango. Bladewise wins in Washington vs SW/toph. Vwins just beat unknown522.

On paper it seems bad. But in practice, peach players seem to handle the matchup well.
Here we go again with the endless "theory vs tournament results" debate.

But seriously, at what point do we stop sucking fox's d*** and realize that in practice he isn't some untouchable super force?

 

[Bones0]

^Last I saw, MacD beat Zhu.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I dont want to have to write my feelings on the fox mu on a phone, honestly i wish i could talk to u guys about it since i am better at expressing myself through conversation then i am in writing, plus the peach v fox mu is a very deep mu to talk/write about and i am work and dont have the time, but recently i have been starting to think its not the 65/35 which many claim it to be but its still bad for peach and its still worse then the marth mu.

 

[choknater]

i think it is best described as 'slight fox'

 

[Geenareeno]

We need to see Mango's Peach vs HBox's Jiggs.

 

[Bing]

I find it difficult to believe fox "destroys" peach, when peach players routinely beat fox players of their caliber. Armada beat mango. Bladewise wins in Washington vs SW/toph. Vwins just beat unknown522.

On paper it seems bad. But in practice, peach players seem to handle the matchup well.
Here we go again with the endless "theory vs tournament results" debate.

But seriously, at what point do we stop sucking fox's d*** and realize that in practice he isn't some untouchable super force?

Agreed, I mean the issue with Fox is that is combo or be combo'd, And guess what, Peach players are figuring **** out and us Fox main are getting combo'd harder and harder. Its not uncommon now to see Peach pull a death combo that doesnt even involve a down-smash. The MU is in now way ridiculous, I'd say 50-50 but probably even is Peaches favour.

We need to see Mango's Peach vs HBox's Jiggs.

This confuses me...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach keeps Fox's movement honest in a lot of respects and kills him whenever she touches him.

Those are kind of good things to have.

 

[Max?]

i think it is best described as 'slight fox'

This sounds oddly familiar to the OT matchup ratio system.

Even?
Slight
90-10

 

[john!]

are there any peach mains in the mbr? any peach players? (other than kk, who dabbles in peach)... if so, they should post here.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just to be clear I still think Fox beats Peach.

 

[unknown522]

I find it difficult to believe fox "destroys" peach, when peach players routinely beat fox players of their caliber. Armada beat mango. Bladewise wins in Washington vs SW/toph. Vwins just beat unknown522.

On paper it seems bad. But in practice, peach players seem to handle the matchup well.
Here we go again with the endless "theory vs tournament results" debate.

But seriously, at what point do we stop sucking fox's d*** and realize that in practice he isn't some untouchable super force?

don't use me for those statistics. I have my reasons for not winning the second set

Also I completely agree with that last statement

 

[JPOBS]

This sounds oddly familiar to the OT matchup ratio system.

Even?
Slight
90-10

i second this motion.

don't use me for those statistics. I have my reasons for not winning the second set

Also I completely agree with that last statement

word daddio.

 

[choknater]

This sounds oddly familiar to the OT matchup ratio system.

Even?
Slight
90-10

i like this system

 

[ShroudedOne]

Actually, I forgot about Sheik. Jiggs, Falcon, Sheik, then Marth.

I agree with JPOBS that Fox vs. Peach being 60-40 is ridiculous. It's at least even, if not slightly in Peach's favor (I would say even).

Most Peach mains will tell you that Falcon is even (I don't agree with this at all, but whatever, I'm not good so it's probably even).

Marth has the potential to be much more difficult than he is now. Marth mains just don't seem to want to play unbelievably homo vs her (which, don't get me wrong, I applaud, but she should have a harder time, in my opinion).

Peach vs Fox is a lot of very, very, very delicate things, in my opinion. I agree that she should kill him "in theory (lol)," once she gets a hit, but this is kind of an over-exaggeration of the matchup, to be honest. There are hits she'll get that won't lead to anything (funny, how, in theory, she death combos him from one hit, and this rarely plays out, but is accepted, but when we say in theory, Fox beats her, this is rejected).

The way you beat Peach isn't by death comboing her, it's by out-positioning her/constantly putting her in awful spots from where you can just smack her. Just because Fox can't combo her like she does him, doesn't suddenly make it a good/even MU for her.

In any case, slight Fox is the best way to describe it. Kills her very efficiently, and her style isn't the best suited for dealing with his keepaway.

Fox destroys peach. Idk what you're smoking.

Not anymore.

i think it is best described as 'slight fox'

Indeed.

are there any peach mains in the mbr? any peach players? (other than kk, who dabbles in peach)... if so, they should post here.

I see what you're getting at, and I agree, but what can we do?

 

[Bones0]

Peach comboing Fox isn't theory though. Armada does it all the time. Maybe not at a 100% touch to death ratio, but he certainly does reliable combos that work on opponents with appropriate DI.

 

[unknown522]

yes. yes he does

 

[Warhawk]

Most Peach mains will tell you that Falcon is even (I don't agree with this at all, but whatever, I'm not good so it's probably even).

Whoa, really? I thought the Peach mains generally thought it was in Falcon's favor...

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Whoa, really? I thought the Peach mains generally thought it was in Falcon's favor...

we do idk what shrouded was talking about

Also earlier i sad i was going to make a tier list as i see it not as i think the next one will be so here i go

top/s
falco
fox
sheik

high/a
jiggs
peach/marth
falcon

low high/b
ic's
doc

mid/c
samus
ganon
pika

luigi is ether bottom of c or top of d idk so here he is in no mans land

low mid/d
mario
ylink/yoshi (yes i think yoshi might be this good if not even better)
dk

low/e
link
zelda
mewtwo/roy
g&w

ness is here in no mans land part 2

bottom/f
bowser
kirby/pichu

i think link is a solid amount better then zelda but does not belong in low mid, i also think characters having their own tier is pointless and looks messy so i put him in low, but if i had to change i would move dk into a tier with link

 

[bubbaking]

I think Ness is solid enough to be included with G&W and Mewtwo in their second-to-bottom tier...

And I honestly think Jiggs should be tied with Sheik....somewhere...

Yoshi's results don't exactly justify him being above DK just yet...

In my humble opinion, here's what I think the tier list should look like:

Top (S)
Fox/Falco
Sheik/Jiggs

High (A)
Peach/Marth
C.Falcon

Upper Mid (B)
ICs
Doc
Samus
Ganon

Lower Mid (C)
Pika
Luigi/Mario
YL
DK
Link/Yoshi

Low (D)
Zelda
Mewtwo
Roy/Ness
G&W

Bottom (E)
Bowser
Kirby/Pichu

Not too sure about my placing of Ness...kinda figured that he has good combo potential and semi-reliable KO moves so I tied him with Roy. I do feel like he's better than G&W. G&W has only, like, two safe moves at neutral, jab and dtilt (maybe). To me, Ness seems like he can play safer. He actually has a shield, he can L-cancel ALL his aerials, and he doesn't die at, like, 70%. Lolz!

To elaborate, I believe Ness actually has more potential than either G&W or Roy does. Watching Hbox play the char has opened my eyes to some of the things he can do that G&W and Roy simply can't. Unlike Roy, Ness isn't shut down by hardcore CCing, like you'd see from the likes of Samus and such. On top of that, Roy does not have very many reliable KO moves: fsmash, occasionally nair, side-B if you can land the needed 3rd or 4th hits, and a hard-to-land dair spike. Ness has bair, bthrow, and fsmash, occasionally nair, uair, and fthrow, and a dair spike that's much easier to utilize (not only in killing, but in comboing/tech-chasing as well). Ness's recovery isn't noticeably worse or better.

On top of all this, Ness's DJC's open up a whole new world of combo potential, attacks oos, and more. He may not get the super-armor that Yoshi gets during his DJ, but it still has plenty of utility, especially with a frame 5 nair. Of course, most of this is theorycrafting based on what I've seen done by Hbox. Naturally, there aren't much results to back my speculation so I definitely wouldn't be justified in trying to make Ness any better than tied with Roy.

 

[ShroudedOne]

There are quite a few of us who think that Falcon beats her (rightfully so, imo). But most of what I hear from Peaches (and from Falcons) seems to be that they think it's even.

And yeah, I was just questioning the 0 to death thing. Armada most definitely gets consistent, heavy combos on his Foxes. No denying that.

 

[john!]

fox vs. peach is extremely player dependent.

peach can **** up foxes that don't give her enough respect. but a fox that plays with sufficient precision and very few mistakes can just murder her.

the most advanced fox vs. peach sets to date (mango vs. armada at genesis 2 and apex) are great examples of this. you'll notice that when mango went into "overdrive" and tried to push himself past his limit, he started making technical and spacing errors which armada is extremely proficient at punishing. but when mango stuck with basic fox **** and played patiently without making mistakes, he fared significantly better. the matchup is almost completely in the hands of the fox player.

 

[Divinokage]

don't use me for those statistics. I have my reasons for not winning the second set

Also I completely agree with that last statement

Wow wait a min, you make it seem like it's something you can totally control which isn't the case in a game like smash.

It's like saying, oh if I play well I can beat the best in the world! Of course my chances would be higher to do so, but what if they start playing well too what happens?

 

[Sukai]

fox vs. peach is extremely player dependent.

roflno

Match ups are about character vs character, not character vs player or whatever non-character vs character bout you're implying.

Fox vs Peach imo is even.
What happened to the fox players who used shine intelligently?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Idk shrouded iirc the majority of peach's think falcon has the advantage in that mu. It was something like "peach can chain grab him and combo him hard, but he can combo us just as hard if not harder and has thorws to knees so he got that guaranteed kill combo so he has the advantage"

But like i said in a earlier post in this thread "the jury is still out on that mu"

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

fox vs. peach is extremely player dependent.

peach can **** up foxes that don't give her enough respect. but a fox that plays with sufficient precision and very few mistakes can just murder her.

the most advanced fox vs. peach sets to date (mango vs. armada at genesis 2 and apex) are great examples of this. you'll notice that when mango went into "overdrive" and tried to push himself past his limit, he started making technical and spacing errors which armada is extremely proficient at punishing. but when mango stuck with basic fox **** and played patiently without making mistakes, he fared significantly better. the matchup is almost completely in the hands of the fox player.

wo rd