Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[john!]

roflno

Match ups are about character vs character, not character vs player or whatever non-character vs character bout you're implying.

Fox vs Peach imo is even.
What happened to the fox players who used shine intelligently?

those are the fox players that make the matchup in fox's favor. thanks for proving my point

 

[Kimimaru]

I like bubbaking's tier list because I really think it reflects the metagame right now, but I'd put Falco above Fox because he has a much better projectile. I'd also move Yoshi up above Young Link, but as stated previously, his results don't reflect that at the moment.

I also think Ness has a little more potential, and I'm not saying this just because he's my secondary. If you look at players like Mofo and Hungrybox, you can see that Ness can combo fairly reliably, and his F-air poke is insane. Also if you check out the 2nd match of Mofo vs Hax you'll see how awesome the Yoyo Glitch is in competitive play. All of Ness' aerials are good, but he suffers from having an easily gimpable recovery and terrible up and down smashes. F-tilt is surprisingly strong and can catch someone off guard if they're trying to recover. U-tilt and D-tilt have their uses as well, and his back throw is probably the strongest throw in the game. The main problem I find with Ness is that you can't be aggressive or you'll usually get hit when doing a DJC aerial, which forces you to play rather defensively.

With that said, I think Ness should be right under Mewtwo on bubba's list because he doesn't have any super extreme weaknesses that the characters in G tier do.

 

[Sukai]

those are the fox players that make the matchup in fox's favor. thanks for proving my point

Why would you determine the match up by anything less than that hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Take time to read and comprehend, old chap.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Its really weird how no one is calling out how ridiculous it is anyone atm can think peach vs fox is even.

 

[JPOBS]

those are the fox players that make the matchup in fox's favor. thanks for proving my point

which ones are those and what are their recent sets?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

but a fox that plays with sufficient precision and very few mistakes can just murder her.

the most advanced fox vs. peach sets to date (mango vs. armada at genesis 2 and apex) are great examples of this. you'll notice that when mango went into "overdrive" and tried to push himself past his limit, he started making technical and spacing errors which armada is extremely proficient at punishing. but when mango stuck with basic fox **** and played patiently without making mistakes, he fared significantly better. the matchup is almost completely in the hands of the fox player.

Indeed

All of us inferior character mains should be grateful Foxes make technical mistakes. Without that, we'd never win a match.

 

[Ripple]

this is stupid. there is playing a MU right (whatever playstyle in general has shown to be the best) and then there's just playing it wrong (playstyle that doesn't work)

mango vs armada: when mango was chill and hanging back from armada it was EVEN. when he went too aggressive he was losing

why are we discussing the MU ratio when things are done wrong?

 

[Bing]

I've watched the sets between Mango and Armada at both Genesis 2 and Apex 2012 numerous times trying to learn the MU and what works and what doesnt.

A few things I noticed is that when Mango was in control or staying even, he wasnt overly aggressive, he used his lasers responsibly and effectively. He kept things simple while still being Mango, like drill-shine grabs and up-smashes. He spaced bairs extremely well. But then the real Mango would come out and a full behemoth of a combo monster would come out and he would begin putting himself into poor positions to try and start that super-grand combo.

Almost every match went the same way. Starts Even, Aggro Mango comes out, advantage goes to Armada, then Mango would begin to play the MU right, but too little too late.

I dont believe it ridiculous at all to say that its an even MU, but I truly don't believe thats its in Fox's favour, anymore that is.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox controls the whole game but when peach makes a correct call she can combo fox pretty well. Of course armada making lots of really good calls in a row will make the match-up look much different than what it really is.

 

[Bing]

Using Mango vs Armada is still a great example of how to learn the MU simply because it is still Fox vs Peach and Mango makes a lot of good and bad decisions which help to learn how to play against Peach.

 

[john!]

Indeed

All of us inferior character mains should be grateful Foxes make technical mistakes. Without that, we'd never win a match.

i can't tell if you're trolling or not, because what you said is somewhat true

i just used mango vs. armada as an example because it illustrates how the fox player's playstyle, mentality, and control of their character can drastically change the matchup. i'm not here to argue about whether mango got outplayed or whether peach vs. fox is even. (for what it's worth, i do think mango got outplayed, partially because armada had far more experience in the matchup)

 

[Bing]

Sorry I was just using this as a prime example because the discussion of Mango vs Armada as the staple of Fox vs Peach seemed to be the going trend.

 

[DoH]

I hate you all

 

[Bing]

And we love you too DoH

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Almost every match went the same way. Starts Even, Aggro Mango comes out, advantage goes to Armada, then Mango would begin to play the MU right, but too little too late.

i can't tell if you're trolling or not, because what you said is somewhat true

Yeah

I'm ****ing done here

smfh

 

[Bing]

Yeah

I'm ****ing done here

smfh

...? If Im wrong just say so? :S

 

[Kimimaru]

Saying Foxes don't make mistakes is the equivalent of perfect play, and it holds true for every character. If there was a player who never made mistakes with Pichu then that player would win every game.

This is beside the point, though. I think Marth should be moved under Peach because he doesn't have very good matchups against anyone above him, except maybe Jigglypuff. I also think Fox should be above Peach because he has good matchups against mostly every character while she struggles or breaks even against Jigglypuff and Falcon.

 

[Bing]

Saying Foxes don't make mistakes is the equivalent of perfect play, and it holds true for every character. If there was a player who never made mistakes with Pichu then that player would win every game.

This is beside the point, though. I think Marth should be moved under Peach because he doesn't have very good matchups against anyone above him, except maybe Jigglypuff. I also think Fox should be above Peach because he has good matchups against mostly every character while she struggles or breaks even against Jigglypuff and Falcon.

Marth only bad MU is Sheik. He atleast breaks a 50/50 against every other character in the game... So the argument for being moved under Peach based on MU's is invalid.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Marth only bad MU is Sheik. He atleast breaks a 50/50 against every other character in the game... So the argument for being moved under Peach based on MU's is invalid.

Says the guy who thinks peach v fox is even

But real talk, i find it hard to believe marth's mu's r really still 50/50 with the space animals on any stage other then fd

 

[Bing]

...what does that have to do with anything? :S

 

[Sukai]

Its really weird how no one is calling out how ridiculous it is anyone atm can think peach vs fox is even.

No one, or just you?

gg

 

[Jockmaster]

Fox is no better than low A tier

 

[john!]

Fox is no better than low A tier

 

[Jockmaster]

Everyone has been brainwashed, it's time for a tier list revolution

 

[unknown522]

Wow wait a min, you make it seem like it's something you can totally control which isn't the case in a game like smash.

It's like saying, oh if I play well I can beat the best in the world! Of course my chances would be higher to do so, but what if they start playing well too what happens?

it's not because I was playing bad that I said that. If I tried my best and lost, then I wouldn't mind that he used me as a statistic. But like I said in my shoutout, that I did certain things that I wouldn'tve done normally, but since they were trying to coach me, I attempted to do the things that they said just to prove to them that it wouldn't work (though I was well aware that they weren't going to work). I even turned to them and said it several times mid-set.

Now, if JPOBS said something about the numerous times Vanz has beaten me (or the other times that Vwins beat me), then I wouldn't mind. It's just that one set

 

[DoH]

If you all spent half as much time practicing as you do playin Super Theory Bros you might get to the point where your results justify your opinions.

 

[JPOBS]

Not everyone can play at the top level. There's a reason why people other than Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant do commentary and game analysis.

 

[unknown522]

indeed

/10c

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

No one, or just you?

gg

No one was so someone had to, b/c atm u r wrong

gg

Edit: @bing: what i was getting at was you lose credibility when u said peach v fox is 50/50 so when u say stuff about marth mu ratios it becomes hard to take u seriously (of course i said it as a joke mostly, u r crazy for thinking peach v fox is 50/50)

 

[Jockmaster]

Not everyone can play at the top level. There's a reason why people other than Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant do commentary and game analysis.

This

The argument that you can't talk if you aren't playing at a high level is laaammeee. And kind of elitist.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But at the same time, if you've never played at the top level you don't actually understand the game and thus your opinions don't really matter.

 

[Bing]

I dont believe it ridiculous at all to say that its an even MU, but I truly don't believe thats its in Fox's favour, anymore that is.

Says the guy who thinks peach v fox is even

Edit: @bing: what i was getting at was you lose credibility when u said peach v fox is 50/50 so when u say stuff about marth mu ratios it becomes hard to take u seriously (of course i said it as a joke mostly, u r crazy for thinking peach v fox is 50/50)

I said I dont think its ridiculous to consider it an even MU. I dont think it IS even, I honestly think at this point its in Peach's Favour. Times are changing, I agree, lets get off of Foxes ****.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Wait so u think its in peach's favor which just makes u crazier. Just b/c the best player in the world can make some fox's look silly doesnt mean peach has the advantage. And the argument she can combo him doesnt hold water since everyone can combo fox hard.

U have no reason to say peach goes even or wins the mu besides look at armada which is a ridiculous argument. Iirc last time this mu was brought up on the peach boards many including armada called it a 65/35 in fox's favor, now i think its more like a 60/40 but no peach in the world thinks its even, and u have no valid argument as to why u think its even or in peach's advantage. (I know u have no valid argument b/c atm there is no argument for that being the case)

 

[choknater]

the matchup is very dynamic and momentum affects it a lot. because the simplest changes in positioning shift the advantage toward either character

it is really just a good matchup that forces both players to observe, read, and react very well. i give it slight fox only because his movement is better and allows for him to play well on more stages. fox tends to be able to set the tempo in most matchups, but that doesn't mean he can win easily.

 

[Zoler]

No one, or just you?

gg

It is ridiculous.

Fox is faster, has almost as good edgeguard in the matchup, has a way better projectile, kills way earlier from both grab (100% guaranteed, except SDI of course) and even earlier from upsmash. He is also the only character that can gimp peach, except marth dair I guess.

Of course if you keep rushing in you gonna get ***** (see fox vs marth, or just basically any character that plays defensively and tries to punish your approaches) since you're not using foxs strength (speed) and exploiting peachs weakness (speed, both horizontally and vertically). However most fox players doesn't enjoy playing like that or is just bad at it.

The matchup is probably 60-40 fox advantage, on FD it's probably 55-45.

This comes from someone who plays vs Armada quite a bit, and even though I get ***** of course, it's not peach, Armada is just that much better than everyone else. Anyway just woke up after sleeping (been at Dreamhack for 3 days with little to no sleep >_<), but that's how I feel about the matchup.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How was dreamhack Zoler? I watched the SC2 stream a bit

 

[choknater]

but it is peach, zoler. armada can't push a character to do things that she cannot do. he is using a character and mastering her, and forcing people to learn new things in the matchup.

the problem with peach vs any character is that she is a master of trades, and has godlike hitbox priority and some invincibility. her nair and fair will either beat or trade with anything, and also put her in a better position than the other character. this is because she is floaty and can usually find a safe way back to the middle. every single character must fear approaching her because she has a defensive answer for pretty much everything except an excellent puff wall of pain.

 

[Zoler]

but it is peach, zoler. armada can't push a character to do things that she cannot do. he is using a character and mastering her, and forcing people to learn new things in the matchup.

the problem with peach vs any character is that she is a master of trades, and has godlike hitbox priority and some invincibility. her nair and fair will either beat or trade with anything, and also put her in a better position than the other character. this is because she is floaty and can usually find a safe way back to the middle. every single character must fear approaching her because she has a defensive answer for pretty much everything except an excellent puff wall of pain.

No one is even close to the same level of their character as Armada is with peach. Not. Even. Close. The easiest thing to notice is how consistent he is with his punishes. Then there's a lot of other things too of course, edgeguard, spacing etc. And I'm not comparing with other peach players only but every other player with every other character.

I agree with the trades though, peach is really good at those. So... don't trade..???? XD

How was dreamhack Zoler? I watched the SC2 stream a bit

Was overall pretty awesome =D I don't play sc2 anymore really I only play HoN pretty much (except smash of course), but was still cool to meet all the old Starcraft players from back when I used to be pretty good at BW. Naugrim, Bischu, Morrow, and many others. ^^

The team I'm in got 3rd at Dreamhack HoN :D (Blackfade), even though I'm not a part of the real lineup it was awesomee. Fnatic won finals like always. Me and some friends won first round in the HoN tourney and then got stomped 2nd round by Norways best team.

Dota2 was cool watching too. LoL sucks like always. Lot's of other stuff too but ye.. AWESOME!

 

[tarheeljks]

But at the same time, if you've never played at the top level you don't actually understand the game and thus your opinions don't really matter.

regarding the ability to understand the game w/o being top level, it really depends on what you consider top level. i can think of someone who is a very good player (hyuga), but not a "top" player, and i respect his opinion on the order of (much) stronger players, and i often respect it more. matches are not just a contest of who understands the game the best. we all have eyes and i think there's a certain level of ability past which, it's difficult use overall skill as a proxy for "understanding of the game" b/c so many other things are being tested when people play, e.g. spatiotemporal reasoning, reaction time etc

so i guess i agree in part that there is some requisite level of skill necessary to be able to assess what's going on, but i don't think you need to be exactly on a top player's level to possess comparable understanding of what's going on

 

[Bing]

LMFAO I dont have an argument. Its probably slight Fox and Peach is gaining ground slowly but surely. I agree with Zoler, like 60-40 or 55-45. Fox Favour. Im just on the lets get off Fox's **** bandwagon XD