Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KingofCereal]

If it's so obvious Fox ***** Peach then we should call the feds.

 

[JPOBS]

As I said earlier, its not only Armada performing well. Peachs in general have been beating foxs recently, and a lot of that is probably due to studying armada vids and implementing some stuff.

We already agree armada is the best player in the world. But other peachs seem to be winning this "65-35" matchup convincingly as well.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

So jpobs u have been talking about these other peach's beating fox, just wondering who r u talking about? Which peach's and what fox's

 

[unknown522]

Can you make a post on the Fox boards about how to play campy Fox? I feel like everyone cites this mythical creature, but no one actually implements it because it doesn't work in practice. It seems like it works great if they are at high % and can't approach safely, but otherwise you just land a few lasers while they completely shut down your angles of escape and force you into bad positions. After all, you can't win just by running away (at least not on any of the 5 neutrals or PS).

I'll write something up

 

[DoH]

Please don't I like winning

 

[Bones0]

So jpobs u have been talking about these other peach's beating fox, just wondering who r u talking about? Which peach's and what fox's

I find it difficult to believe fox "destroys" peach, when peach players routinely beat fox players of their caliber. Armada beat mango. Bladewise wins in Washington vs SW/toph. Vwins just beat unknown522.

On paper it seems bad. But in practice, peach players seem to handle the matchup well.
Here we go again with the endless "theory vs tournament results" debate.

But seriously, at what point do we stop sucking fox's d*** and realize that in practice he isn't some untouchable super force?

^Last I saw, MacD beat Zhu.

Them. He asked someone what Foxes have been shown to excel at the matchup vs. players of similar skill, but he didn't get any responses.

 

[DoH]

 

[Bing]

Them. He asked someone what Foxes have been shown to excel at the matchup vs. players of similar skill, but he didn't get any responses.

Thank you Bones, its only been posted like 6 times which Peach's are figuring out the MU and beating good fox mains.

 

[JPOBS]

Them. He asked someone what Foxes have been shown to excel at the matchup vs. players of similar skill, but he didn't get any responses.

I love you.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I was just asking a question, i said what i had to say yesterday, then armada came in and pretty much re said what i had said. So if he could not convinced u u were wrong then there is no way u will listen to me. And thats fine i will let it go and let u guys sit there being wrong

 

[Divinokage]

DoH, which Fox did you beat recently?

 

[KingofCereal]

DoH, which Fox did you beat recently?

He an answer for himself too, but he beat Chillin last month in tourney, then at Zenith beat PC chris, Everlasting Yayuhzz, and winston. Not too shabby.

 

[Divinokage]

Well it's not really evidence that Peach = Fox. It's like saying oh I also beat Chillin and PC so Ganon = Fox.

 

[JPOBS]

Fox-Peach is the new Sheik-Falcon.

 

[Bones0]

Well it's not really evidence that Peach = Fox. It's like saying oh I also beat Chillin and PC so Ganon = Fox.

Sorry, but I have to call you out on this. You JUST asked what Fox players DoH had beaten recently, got an answer with a laundry list of well known Fox players, and then you say it's not evidence of anything? Then why did you ask in the first place??? It most certainly IS evidence (not PROOF, but certainly evidence) that Peach players in the current metagame handle themselves JUST FINE vs. Fox players. Do these Peach > Fox results dictate 100% of what the matchup is, obviously not. But if anyone is going to sit there and mock people who say Peach is even with or slightly beats Fox (Zoler), they need to get a reality check with what the overwhelming majority of results tell us.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya but then that would mean A LOT of players handle themselves fine vs Fox it's not just Peach players at least 50 players can beat each other no matter which character is chosen.. though normally they are all top-high tier at that point.

 

[Armada]

Ofc I use the tools the char has to over but if you try to understand you should be able to understand that it MAIGHT excist stuff that Fox players should use but they don't cause they are lazy and it is easier to john about the MU to makes excuses for not being good enough.

All experience against Fox players is important to learn everything about the char and what answers he possibly can give to the things you are trying to do. You also get good practice to combo the **** out of him against worse players so practice against them is not useless either (beeing consistent with 0-deth fox should be kinda normal but according to this thread it seems like almost only Peach can be that).

Furthermore, you say that observing results are inconsequential without understanding. That's a phrase similar to an oxymoron, because observing results is an attempt at understanding.

That's not even close to a oxymoron. Oxymoron is to actually make a statement that have two completely different sides that is telling two different things (modern classic for example). This means that you try to say that by looking at results means that you understand why the results went like they did. That also means that you think a person that have never played or seen anything of this game can make a tier list based on results cause in your world results gives understanding.

Results might help a bit but they don't help much at all when it comes to understanding why stuff works like they do. The fact that the tier list have changed so much over the years also proves that a lot of people don't even try to understand cause the most people change their minds so fast when a new char/player place better.

Experience: Something a lot of players here lacks when it comes to high level play and also experience with several of the chars. This means that most "bad" people rely on results without understanding. If they did understand they would probably preform better and make better decisions (Not everyone wanna improve and some people actually try to think outside of the box so I don't mean every person ofc).

Most of those "whys" have been about results and base opinions about it. Would like to see a serious post WHY the MU is even cause so far it have been more then weak.

I can see Peach and a lot of chars doing better against Fox then they do atm cause I actually believe people have skills and not that people "understand" the tier list so fast after new results. People with this kind of mindset will have a way harder time dealing with high level play. But if more Foxes becomes as good as the most Peaches I know Peach players will preform worse in average.

 

[Bones0]

I agree that a lot of people do well vs. Fox, and not just Peach. That's why he's so low on my tier list. I don't understand the latter part of your post concerning top tier. Are you talking about top tier players or top tier characters?

 

[Divinokage]

The characters.

 

[KingofCereal]

I think Armada is right. We need an outside observer to analyze tournament data by character to give us a definitive comprehensive results chart. I have a feeling it will match the tier list pretty closely. But it wouldn't be a tier list.

On another note, how important are tiers to you in choosing your character? Every viable character has strengths and weaknesses against the other viable characters. This debate is so pointless. But is something to talk about.

 

[Bones0]

As far as I'm concerned, any of the top 7 can win a national tournament.

 

[odinNJ]

see there is a point where a tier list stops being useful and becomes Salt Wars

edit: ^^ i agree with the post above me, excpet i think IC's can as well

 

[Cactuar]

Armada is right. Fox players are a bunch of whiners and too lazy to use drill properly.

**

 

[Bones0]

I think ICs could, but there aren't enough people maining them for me to consider it a reasonable possibility. I'm tempted to think the same thing about Doc because Shroomed is such a beast. lol

 

[unknown522]

wow, armada's english has improved pretty quickly. Spelling errors here and there, but overall understandable

aww, I was going to add about how putting theories into action and making them work is important, but lol power outage. Don't really feel like typing that again

 

[Jockmaster]

I think ICs could I'm tempted to think the same thing about Doc because Shroomed is such a beast. lol

This. Once Shroomed's Doc levels up just a little bit more I think he's going to have a good chance at running a national.

And moving Doc up a couple tier list spots.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sheik ***** samus but I still have trouble beating the best ones

 

[Strong Badam]

it's almost as if the less popular character always has more experience against the top tier character than the other way around


????

 

[odinNJ]

This. Once Shroomed's Doc levels up just a little bit more I think he's going to have a good chance at running a national.

And moving Doc up a couple tier list spots.

when people talking about moving characters up in the list i always question their thinking.

you cant just keep movin up chars, you are simultanioulsy moving others down.
now matter how well shroomed does doc wont change much because who are you going to put him above? ICs? Falcon? i dont think so.

this is not about this specific post but more about my views on this type of post.

this was not meant in a mean way, i dont do "mean"

 

[DoH]

I was really just *****ing about that I'm the Rodney Dangerfield of Peach players

 

[Bones0]

I could easily see Doc working his way above ICs some time in the future. I think everyone understands that if you move a character up, it pushes others down...

 

[odinNJ]

yes but sometimes people just say, oh this character did well at this national, BUMB REQUIRED. also idk i still think that doc isnt as good as ICs, but we will see.

 

[JPOBS]

Ofc I use the tools the char has to over but if you try to understand you should be able to understand that it MAIGHT excist stuff that Fox players should use but they don't cause they are lazy and it is easier to john about the MU to makes excuses for not being good enough.

If fox players in the current metagame don't use certain tactics for whatever arbitrary reason, then what exactly is the point of even mentioning it?
What practical use is it to say "Fox destroys peach, its just that no fox players do the right things"? It's a slippery slope than devolves into super theory bros if we just allow assertions like "X character beats Y character with super-strategy Z, but none of the players know how to do it right."

What is a tierlist if not a reflection of the current metagame? I may not understand high level play as well as you, but if the high level fox players also don't understand it well enough to utilize whatever makes the matchup 65-35, then why even bother pretending fox destroys peach if that is not the evidence we see empirically? Just for peace of mind?

SSBM is played in venues, not vacuums.

 

[Wake]

I was just going to say, Armada's English is way better than it was.

Also, look at Leffen vs Armada. Those matches are scary. He's really good against Peach when he's playing well.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can see doc being above ics

 

[Jockmaster]

I was being sarcastic...kind of making fun of the way that results DO have such an impact on the tier list lol

 

[Sukai]

I have come to realize that you are likely just throwing out hypotheticals. Your argument has been "Well Armada could be that good or he could be playing a match-up that is secretly in favor of his character". You haven't really done any proving of your point, although you seem to continue the argument anyways. I could say that using occam's razor, the former is more likely to be true. I could say that the community on the whole disagrees with you. Either way, the burden of proof is on you. I would respectfully ask you to cease this argument until you want to discuss something other than hypothetical notions.

Of course it's hypothetical!
What's wrong with a hypothetical viewpoint?
Like it or not, theory (read: conjecture) is a staple part of any competitive game, from sports to chess to FGs. Theory is there to make people think. Just because it's not the status quo or something that shares your personal view out of some cheap sense of vindication, doesn't mean that it should be discredited by the nature of it's composition.

Instead of pointing out the obvious, think about it for a second. Yeah our views differ, that's the entire point, to challenge. Are you going to write it off because it's relatively radical?

Ｆ***　ｉｔ．

gg smash community
think outside the box = idiocy

 

[PGH Carroll]

armada.. im flattered that you think im good =)

make this your avi instead

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Of course it's hypothetical!
What's wrong with a hypothetical viewpoint?
Like it or not, theory (read: conjecture) is a staple part of any competitive game, from sports to chess to FGs. Theory is there to make people think. Just because it's not the status quo or something that shares your personal view out of some cheap sense of vindication, doesn't mean that it should be discredited by the nature of it's composition.

Instead of pointing out the obvious, think about it for a second. Yeah our views differ, that's the entire point, to challenge. Are you going to write it off because it's relatively radical?

Ｆｕｃｋ　ｉｔ．

gg smash community
think outside the box = idiocy

Did you really just say that i can't handle an out of the box theory? Seriously, do you know who you are talking about?

I am simply asking for you to back up your theory. I could say that hypothetically gravity doesn't exist and the only reason we stand grounded is because Satan is constantly trying to drag our souls into hell, which is located in the center of the earth. You would go to the experts (scientists) and they would be able to give you a good number of reasons why my theory doesn't fit. In the case of this discussion, the experts have come and personally debunked your theory. Maybe the one who should be self-reflecting is you.

 

[t3h Icy]

I was really just *****ing about that I'm the Rodney Dangerfield of Peach players

Armada, Vanz, MacD.

Bladewise.