Official BBR Tier List v5

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ignore post

 

[hotgarbage]

Her ground game is bad, but when she lands something the pain is serious. It's a bit of a guessing game but with a really high reward. Her air game is broken though.

Yeah, I absolutely love how seamlessly her utilt/dtilt setup into her air game~

Speaking of her ground game I was surprised way back when I learned just how much range it has. Her ftilt/dtilt are at the far-end of "normal-ranged" ground moves (read: not MK, Marth, Dedede, etc), tying with Peach's dtilt for instance. Combine that with solid frame data (speed, cooldown) and a fantastic launch angle for dtilt and she's got some good tools.

But yeah, overall her ground game is sub-par. Poor boxing, no grab, and no good way to space her ground moves (huge sh, middling initial walk speed/walk acceleration) is pretty poopy.

 

[Yikarur]

Even with perfect timing his d-air would beat out the up-smash pretty much every time. It's much easier for Lucario to time his d-air, too. -.-

while charging the upsmash Yoshis hurtbox is sooo small. how the hell should dair beat upsmash if it doesn't even hit?
it sounds like you only allow for both moves hit each other at the same time, thats what I meant with timing.

 

[Orion*]

Her ground game is bad, but when she lands something the pain is serious. It's a bit of a guessing game but with a really high reward. Her air game is broken though.

i wouuld agree except its not a guessing game when you can beat her moves on reaction

 

[Ripple]

i wouuld agree except its not a guessing game when you can beat her moves on reaction

go ahead and react to something that's less than 10 frames. I dare you. evade snake's/zelda's grab on reaction.

nothing in this game can really be beaten on reaction unless its over 12-13 frames or there is a huge animation change before hand.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I shielded the second hit of mk's dsmash on reaction :o

My shiled button gets pretty trigger happy sometimes

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I dare you to shield ZSS' 5-frame dtilt on reaction >_>

 

[Z'zgashi]

Just for you SFP, just for you

 

[Ripple]

I shielded the second hit of mk's dsmash on reaction :o

My shiled button gets pretty trigger happy sometimes

like I said, huge animation change beforehand. you shield when a giant sword misses you and then will hit you

 

[Z'zgashi]

What if i said i did it with yoshi

 

[Ripple]

What if i said i did it with yoshi

if yoshi's shield comes out frame 1 like everyone else's, then it doesn't matter

 

[Z'zgashi]

dammit lol, i was hoping you'd think it was slow xD

 

[Poltergust]

while charging the upsmash Yoshis hurtbox is sooo small. how the hell should dair beat upsmash if it doesn't even hit?
it sounds like you only allow for both moves hit each other at the same time, thats what I meant with timing.

Because it does hit...? The hitbox for Lucario's d-air is that big.

 

[Flayl]

go ahead and react to something that's less than 10 frames. I dare you. evade snake's/zelda's grab on reaction.

nothing in this game can really be beaten on reaction unless its over 12-13 frames or there is a huge animation change before hand.

He's referring to her grab, which IS dodgeable on reaction if you know what to look for.

 

[napZzz]

I'm still suprised snake is still at 2 :/

 

[etecoon]

that's actually borderline for my reaction time, around 266ms, lol I'm horrible

though people should also understand that your results on a reaction time test don't take into account the time you need to perceive WHAT is coming, your actual ability to say "that's a grab!" or "that's an attack!" is going to be a lot slower and realistically most people can only play on sheer reaction vs characters like ganon

 

[Albert.]

He's referring to her grab, which IS dodgeable on reaction if you know what to look for.

NickR1ddle mentioned this to me once LOL

"afro just UTilts me and Seibrik rolls behind me to punish if they notice grab"

 

[RATED]

lol

ZSS can do ok if the player is significantly smarter than her opponent though.

the same with almost any character in the game -________-

 

[demonictoonlink]

I'm still suprised snake is still at 2 :/

I assumed it would be another Meta Knight.

 

[Spelt]

the same with almost any character in the game -________-

it's also the definition of non-viability.

 

[etecoon]

I assumed it would be another Meta Knight.

this would still make more sense come to think of it

da bess

secondary #2!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS' ground game is bad but you guys are completely lowballing it.

Down Smash and Grab have slow start-up, so they aren't so hot in tight situations. They are based mostly on reads and predictions. Down tilt, up tilt, and Side-b are all really good moves. Jab is good, but your mileage may vary, because you have to mix up most of the time to make any use of it. There are 8 or 10 characters that the jab actually connects seamlessly on; vs these characters, ZSS has a ridiculously good ground game (Toon Link, Jigglypuff, Game and Watch, Kirby, ROB, Peach, some others).

Forward Tilt is awful unless you really need range. Paralyzer Shot is OK, but not great (it lets you duck under lasers and other projectiles sometimes). Forward Smash is Forward Smash. Dash Attack is a freaking AMAZING move (you can actually perform it without being shield grabbed if you space it right).

The problem with ZSS' ground game is that the good moves are all launch moves, she doesn't have any moves that just compete on the ground in the standard way. It's all there for a single purpose, to uproot the opponent, thus making it a bit linear.

She makes up for it in the air and off-stage. She gimps really well, has plenty of set-ups for kills, has pretty good recovery, and simply can't be beaten in the air, even by MK. She's good, but has weaknesses and is fine at the low end of high tier.

 

[ADHD]

Your vote could've made a difference. Too bad you didn't realize it when you quit the first day you joined the BBR instead of sticking around to make some sort of change.

I don't want to be supporting the BBR, it's bad back there.

 

[Z'zgashi]

that's actually borderline for my reaction time, around 266ms, lol I'm horrible

though people should also understand that your results on a reaction time test don't take into account the time you need to perceive WHAT is coming, your actual ability to say "that's a grab!" or "that's an attack!" is going to be a lot slower and realistically most people can only play on sheer reaction vs characters like ganon

I just took an online reaction time test and my average was 0.197. :D

 

[phi1ny3]

I love ZSS DA's string utility, I saw someone who got DA'd like 4 times in a row before switching to another attack.

 

[-Vocal-]

I love ZSS DA's string utility, I saw someone who got DA'd like 4 times in a row before switching to another attack.

It's so awesome, she'd be a better character if it wasn't so percentage and character dependent.

 

[Nefarious B]

It's not character dependent lol, it works on everyone except Kirby, and has a 20ish% window where it works perfectly. If you've staled it, it works much longer. Even if it's not staled enough it will string unless you know how to DI it perfectly.

 

[KillerJawz]

Tbh her DA is generally a good move (2nd best dash attack imo), even without the chain (which as stated earlier, is guaranteed and you have a gigantic percentage margin to pull it off).

 

[-Vocal-]

It's not character dependent lol, it works on everyone except Kirby, and has a 20ish% window where it works perfectly. If you've staled it, it works much longer. Even if it's not staled enough it will string unless you know how to DI it perfectly.

But I thought that the specific percentages were different for each character.

No?

 

[Nefarious B]

It's like, 5% difference that's based on weight classes and fall speed. You don't need to know the % at all really, if you land a DA at around 40-60% you should follow it up

 

[-Vocal-]

It's like, 5% difference that's based on weight classes and fall speed. You don't need to know the % at all really, if you land a DA at around 40-60% you should follow it up

Alright, that's what I was thinking of but it's not as big of a deal as I thought it was. That said, the percentage was still more important in my mind - if she could do this at any percentage she'd be nearly as deadly as King DDD with a stun gun

 

[TheSaintKai]

I just took an online reaction time test and my average was 0.197. :D

12 frames.
Not fast enough for a 5 frame d-tilt.

 

[DMG]

Wario has a better dash attack than ZSS

Discuss

 

[demonictoonlink]

It breaks shields when they're insanely low.

 

[Spelt]

It's fun actually hitting people with DA when i mess up a DACUS because not even i know it's coming.
ultimate mindgame.

 

[Nefarious B]

12 frames.
Not fast enough for a 5 frame d-tilt.

People definitely overrate how easy it is to dodge a ZSS grab on reaction. Unless you've played the matchup a ton, you are not going to be able to unless the ZSS is really obvious.

The thing about reaction time is, lets say it takes you 10 frames to realize ZSS is grabbing. You still have to then spotdodge, which is 2 more frames. So, if you have what is considered a decently fast reaction time, you have 4 frames of leway to react to something that by no means should you be expecting from a ZSS if they're being smart with their grabs.

 

[dainbramage]

There are two things involved in reaction time: How long it takes you to interpret and respond to a stimulus, and how long it takes to send a signal from your brain to your hands. If the stimulus is obvious and you're expecting it (starter gun at a race, for example), then your reaction time is pretty much solely the time it takes for the signal to travel - this is going to be about 150-200ms. When you have to think, or you're not expecting something is when things get a lot slower. Expect a reaction time of ~ a second if the lights in front of your car go orange.

Just because it takes you less than 0.2 seconds to click a mouse when you see your screen turn from red to green doesn't mean you can shield any frame 12 move on reaction. The more subtle the stimulus, the longer your reaction time is. The same is true when you need to think. If instead of a competition being "I'm going to try and grab you as ZSS and you to spotdodge it", it's "I'm going to either grab or dsmash, and you have to spotdodge the grab or shield the dsmash", then the person doing the dodging/shielding won't be nearly so successful.

 

[Spelt]

Well, i think the lesson we have all taken away from this is that rear ending someone is just like punishing zss's grab

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't want to support the BBR, it's bad back there.

There that is much better.
Oh andby the way, ADHD you suck. =)

 

[demonictoonlink]

Do the top players ever post in the BBR?