Official BBR Tier List v5

[Flayl]

Just curious: What Bowsers have you played?

In my experience, a 70-30 MU is one where a moderately good player can defeat a great player who uses a terribly disadvantaged player. I'm gladly the first to admit I've only played moderately good to good Zamuses, and I haven't played the competent Zamus mains in Texas yet (which is kinda funny since we have so many now, haha). But that said, I have yet to feel Zamus shuts down Bowser in the same fashion that Diddy Kong does, for example, and absolutely not more than ICs.

I forget off the top of my head which Zamus main KingKong MM'd at Apex, but he had also been believing the MU to be 50-50, and he reinforced his notion at Apex. I'll have to look it up and get back to you.

SFP plays against a Bowser that couldn't figure out how to escape ZSS's "standing chaingrab". PM me if you want to know more about that.

KingKong played Snakeee at APEX (namesearch flooding yeah).

I asked SFP how it was possible for KK not to lose that and he said Snakeee didn't know the matchup. I have serious doubts SFP knows the matchup any better than he does, because the way he puts its, all the ZSS has to do is play normally and she'll shut out Bowser. He also got a lot of key info on how Bowser plays the MU wrong, so...

I don't know if you've seen it, but NRiddle posted a vid on how to DSmash gimp the whole cast including Bowser. He apparently didn't see anything wrong with how Bowser was recovering while editing the video. It's gotten to the point where I take anything ZSS mains say about low tier characters with a grain of salt.

edit: BTW; I think Bowser is disadvantaged in the MU. But I'm not sure on exactly how much.

 

[Orion*]

Lucario has a lot of very strong rep in that a lot of really good players second him for some reason. We put good secondaries in mid tier, although Dedede and Lucario seem to have escaped that fate.

At this time I'd have liked to see Dedede go to mid tier but Lucario's cool where he is, just because he's still used... sort of.

you would d3.... go to mid tier. LMAO

and then ZSS somehow stays in B. wow you really should just not post, you insult yourself LMAO

ZSS vs Bowser is basically a joke imo

ZSS vs everyone is a joke, shes awful

Yes, Falco is a 60-40. Falco's really annoying if he throws out a lot of lasers, but a smart Bowser player will just camp until he's out of CG range. From that point, Falco has trouble KOing Bowser. On the flipside, Falco's easy to gimp for Bowser, and Falco gets caught in Fire Breath pretty easily. Bowser's bthrow offstage to Fire Breath's a solid way to rack up damage against spacies in general.

Really annoying MU, but it's not a shutdown MU if the Bowser knows how to play it smart.

i think it would be a bad idea if falco mains just started to camp you until you die to some random, safe kill move, like bair while youre in the air after hes sideBed or grabbed you. its not like bowser doesnt have the tools to catch falco if he wants to be a homo

Does Ike really have trandescent priority? o_O

yes.... LMAO its 2010 *****

SFP plays against a Bowser that couldn't figure out how to escape ZSS's "standing chaingrab". PM me if you want to know more about that.

XDDDD

 

[Shaya]

wait... all of ike's aerials will always beat mk's tornado?

IKE FOR HIGH TIER.

 

[Scabe]

Has there been talk of Link yet? Do people agree with Link's position? Should he have gone up more? Should he have stayed?

Is Link really better than Zelda?

 

[Greward]

zelda is ok and link too. imo jigglypuff and samus are worse than them

ddd mid tier lol

 

[C~Dog]

Scabe your Link is Sex Tier.

 

[Scabe]

****** don't know about my magnet.

 

[Browny]

Links way too low. Above bowser seems about right to me

 

[B!squick]

Links way too low. Above bowser seems about right to me

Hahahhaha, what a funny story.

/The Room'd

 

[Snakeee]

SFP plays against a Bowser that couldn't figure out how to escape ZSS's "standing chaingrab". PM me if you want to know more about that.

KingKong played Snakeee at APEX (namesearch flooding yeah).

I asked SFP how it was possible for KK not to lose that and he said Snakeee didn't know the matchup. I have serious doubts SFP knows the matchup any better than he does, because the way he puts its, all the ZSS has to do is play normally and she'll shut out Bowser. He also got a lot of key info on how Bowser plays the MU wrong, so...

I don't know if you've seen it, but NRiddle posted a vid on how to DSmash gimp the whole cast including Bowser. He apparently didn't see anything wrong with how Bowser was recovering while editing the video. It's gotten to the point where I take anything ZSS mains say about low tier characters with a grain of salt.

edit: BTW; I think Bowser is disadvantaged in the MU. But I'm not sure on exactly how much.

He was amazing, but I did miss out on some obvious MU stuff....I didn't CG him ONCE >__>

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

you would d3.... go to mid tier. LMAO

and then ZSS somehow stays in B. wow you really should just not post, you insult yourself LMAO

ZSS vs everyone is a joke, shes awful

Link good placings by good Dedede players at anything important for the past year, please and thank you. Contrast that to ZSS' placings. Your anecdotal feelings about ZSS don't matter. Please stop talking. "LOL I BEAT THEOCYANIDE AND MEDIOCRE ZSS PLAYERS A LOT" just stop.

Re: Flayl

That whole video is about punishing bad recoveries. What's the problem? No one recovers perfectly every time.

 

[Pierce7d]

I don't understand why people continue to strawman, and pretend that Orion doesn't have amazing tourney accomplishments.

 

[Renki]

Pierce, do you think someone could link the BBR member's personal tier lists that have already shown them into the first post of the thread? It's a pain to search through this entire thread looking for each individual one. :\

 

[Juushichi]

He was amazing, but I did miss out on some obvious MU stuff....I wasn't allowed to CG him ONCE >__>

10fix'dforyou's.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Links way too low. Above bowser seems about right to me

I wouldn't quite say that, but yeah I give Link more credit than he has now. Even if he is low tier.

I don't understand why people continue to strawman, and pretend that Orion doesn't have amazing tourney accomplishments.

Look at his posts, it's pretty clear why.

 

[Poltergust]

No not really...
Yoshis up air beats lucario downair.

It depends, really. I said it was unsafe because you are taking the chance that Lucario would d-air too late and only hit you with the first hit. If he hits you with the second hit, it'll most likely knock Yoshi out of his heavy-armor and send him off-stage (without his double-jump). You could try u-airing him outside of his d-air range (since Yoshi's u-air has a slightly larger hitbox than Lucario's d-air), but that's like trying to contest Link's d-air; it's not worth the risk and if you miss you're taking both hits of d-air.

Really, the only kill move that doesn't involve chance is his Yoshi Bomb, but Lucario doesn't have a lot of laggy moves to punish with it. =/

Yoshis upair beats even Links dair, Yoshis upair is too good
Upsmash works really good against Lucario, why are you saying it's useless Polty? D:

Uh... no. Lucario's d-air will beat out Yoshi's up-smash 100% of the time. It's not useful in this match-up because it loses its anti-aerial properties.

Does it beat Ike's Dair?

Actually, I think it does. Yoshi's u-air has a ton of vertical range. At the very least, they'll both hit each other.

 

[the king of murder]

Seriously, I always hear "character X is better than you think and character Y is way too high, lololol the BBR sucks". How about you state your reasons why you think that way and actually prove your points correctly with facts. It's something only a few do here.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

wait... all of ike's aerials will always beat mk's tornado?

IKE FOR HIGH TIER.

I know Fair eats Nado for breakfast and Dair has no problem as long as he's high enough to hit MK before falling into the Nado. I suspect both Bair and Uair can beat it as long as it's spaced right. The only hard one to judge would be Nair, but I think there are a few angles where it can get in before the Nado hits him...

Ike's aerials are the few things that prevents the MK MU from being an impossible MU. >_> Stupid bat. Ya might wanna double check with Light that I got all of that right though, I haven't really looked at type of priority because, frankly, most of the time we just plain out out outrange the moves and don't have to worry. It sounds right though, I can't remember one of Ike's aerials being stopped by something except like, Counter.

@Polt: Can you test that? As far as I know, Ike's Dair is the Dair with the most vertical range...

 

[Poltergust]

I thought that longest-ranged d-air is King Dedede's...?

 

[Z'zgashi]

yoshi's uair ties with ikes dair, I've done it once before. I've never beat out or tied with d3's dair though

 

[Orion*]

Link good placings by good Dedede players at anything important for the past year, please and thank you. Contrast that to ZSS' placings. Your anecdotal feelings about ZSS don't matter. Please stop talking. "LOL I BEAT THEOCYANIDE AND MEDIOCRE ZSS PLAYERS A LOT" just stop.

Re: Flayl

That whole video is about punishing bad recoveries. What's the problem? No one recovers perfectly every time.

results arent everything

playing against someone with proper experience renders your character Optionless because i can React to whatever your doing. it has nothing to do with players or matchups, your character is a ****ing gimmick, get that through your head.

i realize that nick riddle is an amazing player, and hes obviously smart as balls, that DOESNT change what i feel about ZSS's potential, its complete ***.

citing a match, like OH NICKRIDDLE BEAT DEHF, doesnt mean suddenly your character has ****ing potential or something, it just means nick riddle beat dehf. consistency means something LMAO, and none of ZSS's options have really impressed or changed that much tbqh. just more gimmicks.

and @ what you said to flayl, this is a tier list. we assume people play at the top of the metagame and know their matchups. meaning, ZSS's wont be gimping people, and your character is still booty

 

[Turbo Ether]

Shaddup, Orion.

But seriously, ZSS' ground game is complete ***.

 

[Yikarur]

Uh... no. Lucario's d-air will beat out Yoshi's up-smash 100% of the time. It's not useful in this match-up because it loses its anti-aerial properties.

you can't be serious D:

 

[Z'zgashi]

Im wondering whether or not we have a wider hitbox than lucario's dair. I know ours is slightly disjointed on the sides, but id assume his is even bigger.

Spoiler

That's what she said.

 

[Poltergust]

you can't be serious D:

What, you never had your up-smash beat out by Lucario's d-air?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Would bair > DJ uair work?

 

[Orion*]

Shaddup, Orion.

But seriously, ZSS' ground is complete ***.

yeah dont **** w/ her in the air LMAO, asking for trouble XD

 

[ConF1ictz]

i love how ganon has his own lmao

 

[Yikarur]

What, you never had your up-smash beat out by Lucario's d-air?

your so shallow-brained D:
Timing > Range/Priority.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If jab wasn't bugged, ZSS would be so much better on the ground. We know it's bugged, and not stupid by design (like a few people have said before) now.

Jab 1: no hitstun, 1% damage, frame 1, very slight angle (I'm actually not sure how this works)
Jab 2: no hitstun, 2% damage, frame 2, no angle

The problem with jab is that the angle on jab 1 isn't high enough for most characters causing jab 2 to allow them to fall back to the ground before jab 3 comes out. This is obviously not intended, the angle on jab 1 was probably set during a time when the game had a lot more intrinsic hitstun, and when it was removed, the jab stopped working correctly and wasn't fixed. I've heard that the e4all demo had the jab working.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, no use crying over failed jabs. ZSS has been able to adapt in other ways. :D

 

[Orion*]

If jab wasn't bugged, ZSS would be so much better on the ground. We know it's bugged, and not stupid by design (like a few people have said before) now.

Jab 1: no hitstun, 1% damage, frame 1, very slight angle (I'm actually not sure how this works)
Jab 2: no hitstun, 2% damage, frame 2, no angle

The problem with jab is that the angle on jab 1 isn't high enough for most characters causing jab 2 to allow them to fall back to the ground before jab 3 comes out. This is obviously not intended, the angle on jab 1 was probably set during a time when the game had a lot more intrinsic hitstun, and when it was removed, the jab stopped working correctly and wasn't fixed. I've heard that the e4all demo had the jab working.

but she DOES have crappy options, this is not some version of the game where you can magically wish she had a better jab

Well, no use crying over failed jabs. ZSS has been able to adapt in other ways. :D

true, but its still not enough. her lack of options is so apparent

 

[YagamiLight]

I know Fair eats Nado for breakfast and Dair has no problem as long as he's high enough to hit MK before falling into the Nado. I suspect both Bair and Uair can beat it as long as it's spaced right. The only hard one to judge would be Nair, but I think there are a few angles where it can get in before the Nado hits him...

Ike's aerials are the few things that prevents the MK MU from being an impossible MU. >_> Stupid bat. Ya might wanna double check with Light that I got all of that right though, I haven't really looked at type of priority because, frankly, most of the time we just plain out out outrange the moves and don't have to worry. It sounds right though, I can't remember one of Ike's aerials being stopped by something except like, Counter.

@Polt: Can you test that? As far as I know, Ike's Dair is the Dair with the most vertical range...

As all of the aerials are transcendent, they all win "head on" encounters with any special that can be outprioritized. But, realistically, Dair is never going to hit Tornado from the side [because you would never use it from that angle] and Uair isn't going to for the same reason. Of course, Dair and Uair both beat out the tornado from the top and bottom, respectively. Nair, Bair and Fair all make using Tornado against Ike a bit of a risky endeavor unless he's suffering huge cooldown lag. Or it's WiFi, where my reverse Bairs turn into walk away Fsmashes. But that's another story.

You got pretty much all of it right. MK's match-up is probably Ike's worst at 35-65 and the real reason it doesn't get much worse than that is because Ike's fall speed prevents super long juggles and that some of MK's approaches are beaten out by aerials. It's still like 35-65 because if you recover against an MK it pretty much means you got lucky. MK has an answer to everything Ike does while recovering. I used to think that Marth was like this but then you realize that Marth actually has to be careful with his jumps, haha.

In like 2008 I distinctly remember beating out PK Thunder with DK's Bair and then being annoyed that Ike's won't do the same. I then realized that I would much rather not take being beaten by someone pressing B a lot than to take a little bit more damage from Ness's PK Thunder (who Ike beats anyway yeah~~~).

And I'm pretty sure D3's Dair has more range than Ike's but I still like Ike's more <3

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

but she DOES have crappy options, this is not some version of the game where you can magically wish she had a better jab

Actually, I will have a post on something that will magically erase most of her ground problems pretty soon.

 

[etecoon]

Actually, I will have a post on something that will magically erase most of her ground problems pretty soon.

lol

ZSS can do ok if the player is significantly smarter than her opponent though. she has mixups but obviously you're relying on some very iffy things compared to what the better characters are using

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Her ground game is bad, but when she lands something the pain is serious. It's a bit of a guessing game but with a really high reward. Her air game is broken though.

 

[YagamiLight]

Her ground game is bad, but when she lands something the pain is serious. It's a bit of a guessing game but with a really high reward.

Don't be a Ganon.

 

[the king of murder]

YagamiLight is awesome.

 

[Poltergust]

your so shallow-brained D:
Timing > Range/Priority.

Even with perfect timing his d-air would beat out the up-smash pretty much every time. It's much easier for Lucario to time his d-air, too. -.-

 

[phi1ny3]

yeah uair is the main killer from the limited yoshi exp. I've had rofl. It's much easier to see a smash coming than that super armor -> uair.

also ZSS is like eh on the ground, so I'm interested to hear if there's been any new development in her ground setups, because she's obv. hella good once she uproots a character