Official BBR Tier List v5

[Poltergust]

No, characters like Lucas and Olimar (with white Pikmin) have the strongest pummels that do like 3% each (and they are FAST), while a character like Samus does 1% each (even less than that with staling).

 

[Dakpo]

Thanks nick for the admittance into high tier finally.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

crow is pro ban.....

......

Either way, we do not need any more disputes about MK being banned or not. That topic I recall was settled when the BBR did it's 3rd vote and found it not worth banning. Leave the rest up to the TOs to decide if MK is worth banning in their tournaments.

Now, back to the idea of pummels. This sounds interesting.

 

[Poltergust]

I thought pummels and their properties were common knowledge? >.>

 

[Ayoub]

Ayoub I blame you entirely for Pits drop, <3.

Partially glad that ZSS is High Tier now <3.

D:, what did I do.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I thought pummels and their properties were common knowledge? >.>

Knowing the fact that you can pretty much only get a single pummel at best below 50% and more come at the higher percents. However, not everyone would know that you can only pummel 1% as samus or 3% as lucas. These sort of details are often overlooked.

But darn, now I have class. I will have to read and pester everyone later.

 

[Yikarur]

you can't buffer pummels at all.
the secret behind that are the Pummel's IASA frames.
If you press Attack in the IASA frames of the pummel further pummels will count es one attack.
If you pummel when the entire animation of the pummel is finished it will count es two attacks and will appear seperated on the stale list.

 

[Choice]

has kirby and gnw's movement been discussed? i mean i know they only moved up slightly, but any movement other than downwards doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

......

however unlike most bbr ppl i respect him alot more than anyone else n the bbr. Mainly because i've met him irl and talked to him about some of these things already. Hes got a good head on his shoulders and isnt biased. Which shows in how he posts his data.

I thought pummels and their properties were common knowledge? >.>

i guess it depends on what type of character main you talk too. DDD has a slow pummel, however if he pummels during a CG it greatly helps to refresh moveset. All i can really say about DDDs pummel...oh and that DDD can slide out of CG into the pummel animation i guess.

when you look at other characters that dont really grab as part of their meta game. I think thats where things start to blur abit.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I thought pummels and their properties were common knowledge? >.>

the amount of information that the majority of the people on these boards DONT know is astounding sometimes.

has kirby and gnw's movement been discussed? i mean i know they only moved up slightly, but any movement other than downwards doesn't really make sense to me.

I agree with this.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

^^^^ its cuz of tl;dr syndrome and ppl not sharing their knowledge to lesser beings


kirby n gw tho if you want to see results stuff iirc chu dat was doing well with kirby months prior to this and texas gw player was also doing well

 

[da K.I.D.]

that would be UTD zac

vinnies game has been getting serious as well, hes tied for second on the NYC PR

but i still feel like the char. should have gone down.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

G&W going up makes a lot of sense given that a lot of BBRs assumed two things:

1. No LGL.
2. Ruleset 3.1 stages.

Now, not everyone made these assumptions, from the sound of it, but his rise can definitely be accounted for those who did assume the prior. Additionally, with Zac and Vinnie doing really awesome in the past months, it's not hard to see why he saw a bump.

G&W/Lucario/ZSS are all roughly in the same placement, in my eyes. Personally, I would order it G&W/ZSS/Lucario, but I'm fine as long as these three are grouped roughly together. G&W shouldn't drop below this grouping (him being the bottom of the three is fine, though) unless something terribly harmful comes up for him/Lucario or ZSS find something awesome for themselves to put a gap between them and him. I can see G&W above Dedede, as an aside.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

imo lucario has better rep over gw/zss/kirby and hes been doing well i dont see why he'd fall lower....i really didnt get that at all

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It could be attributed to a flaws that naturally come with the voting process. No matter how good we try to perfect a voting process, there will always be a few issues when the distance between voting is rather close. Look at this:

2 Snake 3.13
3 Diddy Kong 3.33
4 Falco 3.71

Now compared to this:

11 Mr. Game & Watch 12.05
12 Lucario 12.29
13 Zero Suit Samus 12.75

This results are extremely close. All 3 of them could easily have raised or lowered had the voting been only slightly different.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The only problem with this logic is that you guys purposely moved PT down because there was too large of a gap between him and the 2nd best PT main in terms of results. So with that said how can you guys even move PT down on the premise that Reflex is too good and the #2 isn't good enough. I don't understand the process of the BBR . You guys are constantly contradicting yourself. It's pretty sad.

You do realize we voted on the tier list and then a few people wrote those "explanations", right? Personally, I didn't vote PT down; I don't think many people willfully voted PT down so much as just didn't think about how he was moving relative to other people, didn't change their minds when the fact of his movement was pointed out, and then justified it. The real answer is that most people are thinking a little more highly of the mid tiers these days, but how boring is that?

bowser honestly has nothing redeeming aside from up b and side b, and praying that he gets a grab on you.

none of his other moves have any real versatility, I dont understand why hes as high as he is.

I don't think Bowser is all that bad, but yeah, he's pretty bad. I don't want to go through the massive post that stares at Bowser with rose colored glasses and assumes people doing the juggling are braindead and such, but at least some people agree with me about Bowser.

imo lucario has better rep over gw/zss/kirby and hes been doing well i dont see why he'd fall lower....i really didnt get that at all

I really don't understand how any of that matters. Who cares what rep Lucario has? Why does it matter? I don't think it does at all. The goal of a tier list is to say which characters are good, not to describe the current metagame. The current metagame is self evident anyway, and we have statistics for that.

I also think G&W is non-trivially better than Zero Suit Samus, Kirby, and Lucario. It has nothing to do with how much he is played, which doesn't matter at all. It has to do with how good he is. He just has more dangerous moves.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

actually how well he does when hes played by good players does matter imo. As good players can take that character above and belond simple things such as "how good he is at face value" and actually prove it.

while his moveset does play into this, the fact of the matter is, while gw might have dangerous moves like you said. Can he actually land them? does he have set ups into them that are guaranteed [outside of dthrow follow ups]?

kill moves-- ground wise, GW is good to go. In the air tho i beg to differ.

 

[MintyFlesh]

I've played vinnie before in tourney and won :/ (no offence to him) but gnw vs pit is pretty even if you can get pass turtle. and i believe i beat minty

this is just for people who say i'm only doing good because theres no marths/gnws

no hate :!

We've never played before :l

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

......

Either way, we do not need any more disputes about MK being banned or not. That topic I recall was settled when the BBR did it's 3rd vote and found it not worth banning. Leave the rest up to the TOs to decide if MK is worth banning in their tournaments.

Now, back to the idea of pummels. This sounds interesting.

It won't happen, or rather they can't under pressure.

TO's in some areas can't ban the character because the areas around them don't ban him. As such players lose practice against the character and regions with him legal. So TO's have to keep him legal.

So even if regions want the character banned, they can't because traveling out of state means they have to relearn how to fight the character, which isn't good at all for many like myself who want to travel OoS for tournaments.

I really don't understand how any of that matters. Who cares what rep Lucario has? Why does it matter? I don't think it does at all. The goal of a tier list is to say which characters are good, not to describe the current metagame. The current metagame is self evident anyway, and we have statistics for that.

I also think G&W is non-trivially better than Zero Suit Samus, Kirby, and Lucario. It has nothing to do with how much he is played, which doesn't matter at all. It has to do with how good he is. He just has more dangerous moves.

When I'm at 150% or higher all my moves kill. :3

And how much they are played does matter in some situations. Even more so if they are proving it on paper and in practice.

Zero Suit Samus, Lucario, and Mr. G&W have all done this. Lucario is actually the most successful as of recent when it comes to the three which is why Lucario mains and a few other people are having trouble seeing why he went below Mr. G&W when he has accelerated in placing above the other two, as well as Toon Link.

I do agree with people in that the three are very close to each other, along with Kirby and Toon Link, and I'm fine with how this turned out seeing as someone had to be below one or the other when it came to the three.

Even if I disagree with it, I blame the I main him bias, I don't think it's out of the question for him to be above or below in any combination.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I really don't understand how any of that matters. Who cares what rep Lucario has? Why does it matter? I don't think it does at all. The goal of a tier list is to say which characters are good, not to describe the current metagame. The current metagame is self evident anyway, and we have statistics for that.

I also think G&W is non-trivially better than Zero Suit Samus, Kirby, and Lucario. It has nothing to do with how much he is played, which doesn't matter at all. It has to do with how good he is. He just has more dangerous moves.

"What happens in the real world doesn't matter at all!"

More wisdom from the BBR. <3

 

[da K.I.D.]

AA is in the BR?

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Isn't he? I thought he was.
And he said "we."

 

[da K.I.D.]

I know hes in the hacking back room for those bad minus and project m games. i didnt think he was in the sbr tho.

 

[The Real Inferno]

He is. I'm sorry.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

actually how well he does when hes played by good players does matter imo. As good players can take that character above and belond simple things such as "how good he is at face value" and actually prove it.

while his moveset does play into this, the fact of the matter is, while gw might have dangerous moves like you said. Can he actually land them? does he have set ups into them that are guaranteed [outside of dthrow follow ups]?

kill moves-- ground wise, GW is good to go. In the air tho i beg to differ.

This game isn't about "guaranteed" for the most part. That's just not how the game works. His fair is also a pretty solid kill move, and dair and uair can work as kill moves depending on situation. Good players are indeed informative, but it's not the whole picture. It's not even as big of a part of the picture as most of you guys seem to think it is. We use them to see what the character can actually do, not to say "oh, X player placed 3rd in a national so the character he is using is good" which doesn't matter even a little.

"What happens in the real world doesn't matter at all!"

More wisdom from the BBR. <3

You really don't understand much of anything here, but that's a nice attempt at a strawman. Maybe I should pay off a bunch of top players to start using Ganon and get his tournament results up. That will make him better and worthy of going up on the tier list, right? Oh wait, it won't change Ganon at all, and Ganon hasn't changed a bit since the game came out (like, you know, every other character). Use some common sense.

He is. I'm sorry.

Are you serious?

I know hes in the hacking back room for those bad minus and project m games. i didnt think he was in the sbr tho.

I have nothing to do with Brawl- or Project M. They are both indeed bad.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I love you too, amphy

 

[phi1ny3]

"What happens in the real world doesn't matter at all!"

More wisdom from the BBR. <3

I thought even theoretically G&W didn't have as much good going for him, as in the MK MU and maybe one or two others are lol when played correctly "on paper". If anything the G&W rise argument seems built on this tournament hype. Someone explain what came about otherwise besides "UTD and Vinn ***** at a tournament and took games off of big names".

Spoiler

10ikeephearinghesmostlyareadorientedcharacter

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This game isn't about "guaranteed" for the most part. That's just not how the game works. His fair is also a pretty solid kill move, and dair and uair can work as kill moves depending on situation. Good players are indeed informative, but it's not the whole picture. It's not even as big of a part of the picture as most of you guys seem to think it is. We use them to see what the character can actually do, not to say "oh, X player placed 3rd in a national so the character he is using is good" which doesn't matter even a little.

Uhh, that's kind of a double standard. Placing 3rd in a way shows what the character can do, it matters because the tier list should reflect who has the best chances of winning a tournament from top to bottom. If a character consistently places more frequently than another it either means the character is mad popular or the character is proven to be better.

I mean I understand what you mean in a way though, some mid tier or high tiers might be more popular than some characters above them on the list and as such place more fequently, for example Pikachu is most defiantly high tier but his more recent results are those of a mid tier with multiple character low than him on the list surpassing him on list, is he mid tier? heck no.

Difference here is we have two characters who are very close to each other on paper with one surpassing the other in terms of placement. This is where people are having disagreement.

You really don't understand much of anything here, but that's a nice attempt at a strawman. Maybe I should pay off a bunch of top players to start using Ganon and get his tournament results up. That will make him better and worthy of going up on the tier list, right? Oh wait, it won't change Ganon at all, and Ganon hasn't changed a bit since the game came out (like, you know, every other character). Use some common sense.

Top players aren't going to drop 8-2 MU's in tournament and ganon will place, 7-3 is the threshold of plausable in a tournament setting, imo.

I have nothing to do with Brawl- or Project M. They are both indeed bad.

I like Brawl- on a fun level, just like P:M. Then people try to say they should be standard over normal brawl and I start to hate them again.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

You really don't understand much of anything here, but that's a nice attempt at a strawman. Maybe I should pay off a bunch of top players to start using Ganon and get his tournament results up. That will make him better and worthy of going up on the tier list, right? Oh wait, it won't change Ganon at all, and Ganon hasn't changed a bit since the game came out (like, you know, every other character). Use some common sense.

No character has changed a bit since the game came out, and yet we've been through 5 different tier lists. Please explain this.

 

[phi1ny3]

G&W going up makes a lot of sense given that a lot of BBRs assumed two things:

1. No LGL.
2. Ruleset 3.1 stages.

Now, not everyone made these assumptions, from the sound of it, but his rise can definitely be accounted for those who did assume the prior. Additionally, with Zac and Vinnie doing really awesome in the past months, it's not hard to see why he saw a bump.

G&W/Lucario/ZSS are all roughly in the same placement, in my eyes. Personally, I would order it G&W/ZSS/Lucario, but I'm fine as long as these three are grouped roughly together. G&W shouldn't drop below this grouping (him being the bottom of the three is fine, though) unless something terribly harmful comes up for him/Lucario or ZSS find something awesome for themselves to put a gap between them and him. I can see G&W above Dedede, as an aside.

Actually, under those two circumstances, I can really see the reason as to why G&W rose. G&W is obv. very strong stagewise, and without a LGL, planking is very powerful (not MK but pretty close). I highly disagree with the idea that G&W's moveset is more "potent" compared to ZSS or Lucario, and therefore should rise though. ZSS minus having issues against shield has hella "lethality", lucario as well. The whole statement is pretty ambiguous, considering G&W is infamous for the inability to land any of his lethal but non-staple worthy kill moves (outside of fair), which makes that a very moot point outside of reads. All of this of course is pretty strictly theoretical, but it does apply many times to a practical environment.

edit: wooow, call me Captain Obvious

 

[MarthFanatique]

Oh my God, Peach DID NOT MOVE AGAIN

And yet she's now in C tier again lmao

I approve of Peach's location though; overall, this suits her ability rather well. If anything, MAYBE she could be switched with Pit.

 

[Browny]

Everything over the last 2 pages

AA you truly are a master at typing the maximum amount of words for the smallest amount of meaning or conveyed information. Seriously, heres a good example

"and dair and uair can work as kill moves depending on situation. Good players are indeed informative, but it's not the whole picture. It's not even as big of a part of the picture as most of you guys seem to think it is."

So what anyone who reads this will get from it is... G&W can kill people sometimes with some attacks and people might think it could be important. Wow its a good thing you were here to clear that up. Its quite annoying reading your posts and ending up exactly where we started.

I really don't understand how any of that matters. Who cares what rep Lucario has? Why does it matter? I don't think it does at all. The goal of a tier list is to say which characters are good, not to describe the current metagame. The current metagame is self evident anyway, and we have statistics for that.

Another brilliant example. You havent explained anything, you answer our questions by asking other questions, ones which are rhetorical but clearly you dont actually know the answer so I have no idea why you would say such a thing. Do you actually want to know the answers to these questions or did you just type that to make us think you already know the answer (which obviously you dont)?

 

[lordhelmet]

bahhh sig fail again ignore

 

[Spelt]

I know hes in the hacking back room for those bad minus and project m games. i didnt think he was in the sbr tho.

I like how he has "balanced brawl designer" as his title thing, and then you say this.
classic.

 

[Orion*]

No character has changed a bit since the game came out, and yet we've been through 5 different tier lists. Please explain this.

i want to say that i love your posts because they arent walls of texts, they are nice to read, and they get the point accross.

 

[Spelt]

No character has changed a bit since the game came out, and yet we've been through 5 different tier lists. Please explain this.

physically, the characters can't change. this is why we have b- and crap. the meta game can, but not the characters.

 

[Delta-cod]

if i have the lead youre going to have to approach me if i want to camp you. LMAO, why do you think our match took like 14 minutes >_>

not realistic to always assume you have the lead

Well, yeah. I won't approach until there's very little time left, though. I did the same against Kadaj at Apex, and ended up winning. I probably would have lost if I just started throwing myself at him.

 

[Orion*]

lmao you can still *** people in tournament, especially @ a national. im talkign about learning

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You do realize we voted on the tier list and then a few people wrote those "explanations", right? Personally, I didn't vote PT down; I don't think many people willfully voted PT down so much as just didn't think about how he was moving relative to other people, didn't change their minds when the fact of his movement was pointed out, and then justified it. The real answer is that most people are thinking a little more highly of the mid tiers these days, but how boring is that?

I know this however, if you guys are going to have people post reasoning why the BBR did something and it not be something the BBR decided as a whole it seems rather foolish to ne.,

 

[Delta-cod]

lmao you can still *** people in tournament, especially @ a national. im talkign about learning

I actually was trying to practice it at Riz's, but what happened was I ended up getting every attempt stuffed by MK's gay everything. MK really does **** Yoshi's approaches if he just stays grounded and stuff.

But johns johns johns. I actually like playing aggressive in like, every other MU. Mainly because it's possible to do it. @_@