Official BBR Tier List v5

[Col. Stauffenberg]

i want to say that i love your posts because they arent walls of texts, they are nice to read, and they get the point accross.

Thank you, I like your bluntness with idiot theorycrafters in your posts.

 

[Orion*]

Thank you, I like your bluntness with idiot theorycrafters in your posts.

your compliment made it worth the infractions

 

[Spelt]

the points are worth the infractions imo

 

[The Truth!]

Several Lucarios seem to have been upset with his placing for awhile. Can anyone explain with concrete information or otherwise why he should be higher and where you expect him to be?

 

[Orion*]

lucarios soooooo hard to judge for me tier wise namely because of aura and how it can effect mus so much

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lucario has a lot of very strong rep in that a lot of really good players second him for some reason. We put good secondaries in mid tier, although Dedede and Lucario seem to have escaped that fate.

At this time I'd have liked to see Dedede go to mid tier but Lucario's cool where he is, just because he's still used... sort of.

 

[Browny]

It's not so much the evidence proving lucario should be higher (see; zss as well) but more so the lack of evidence of G&W being higher. I dont disagree that he may be a better character overall if you simply look at traits but really, as of the 25th of september 2010 it should be clear to everyone that Lucario is outperforming G&W all over the place. The only question which remains is; why is that the case?

People who are biased to G&W will say that this is only because of rep and its innaccurate to rate a character higher simply because more people play them, hence it being more likely that a pro will use said character. Ill say Lucario has more rep and more top people using him because they realise he is a better choice as a tournament character. There exists a line which people will not cross when it comes to how much they want to main a given character and whether they choose to actually use them. Everyone whoever switched to a top/high tier character knows this.

So why is it that so many people feel that G&W pushes that boundary just too far and therefore cease to use him while Lucario continues to have a strong tournament presence? Its pretty simple if you ask me. People use good characters because they are good. People dont use bad characters because they are bad. whilst people will always main characters they like independant of whether they are good or not, the sheer lack of dedicated G&W mains vs dedicated Lucario mains makes it seem pretty obvious that G&W is not favoured at all as a tournament character over Lucario, the only real reason that for that which isnt pure character bias is that he is not seen as a strong enough choice in tournament.

 

[phi1ny3]

Like I said, when you think about it, the consideration of the BBR ruleset definitely explains why G&W is higher. I would say anything else would otherwise give ZSS/Lucario rise, although all three have these glaring "holes" in their game (not enough to bring them to being "bad", just enough to make them a tad dysfunctional in comparison to top tiers and have to compromise elsewhere). Not that it matters, at this point imo it's bias that sways an otherwise "static" bottom end of B-tier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Several Lucarios seem to have been upset with his placing for awhile. Can anyone explain with concrete information or otherwise why he should be higher and where you expect him to be?

Well, he has been outplacing some of the characters around him, he is ranked 10th on the Character ranking list. Lee Martin, Zucco, and co. have been placing.

His MU's, well the worst he loses is a 4:6 which is very respectable compared to other characters who have worse MU's His Mu's while never worse than a 4:6, his advantages never really get better than a 6:4 on the flip side, outside of Yoshi and Ganondorf. Heck I think he has a lot of even or pretty much close to even MU's around the board.

Still I think he's fine where he is, 10-12 is where he should be imo. It's consistent with where he ends up on the character ranking list each season and his MU spread lines up fairly well with it.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Several Lucarios seem to have been upset with his placing for awhile. Can anyone explain with concrete information or otherwise why he should be higher and where you expect him to be?

I can't see all that much cause for it. He and G&W are pretty close to on par in my view and we can see the voting was close for it, so it's w/e. Anyone getting worked up over a difference of one closely contested spot is just being silly.

 

[Browny]

Lucario main invasion

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

True dat, Browny.

 

[Zigsta]

Pretty sure Bowser's matchups r awful with high and even mid tiers.

I'm late to the Bowser namesearch party, but this is an inaccurate statement. Bowser's only awful MUs are ICs, MK, Diddy, and Dedede. He's got a lot of 60-40s, which are by no means awful.

 

[Spelt]

that seems pretty far-fetched, if the opponent is good at not getting grabbed what is bowser gonna do?

 

[Poltergust]

His MU's, well the worst he loses is a 4:6 which is very respectable compared to other characters who have worse MU's His Mu's while never worse than a 4:6, his advantages never really get better than a 6:4 on the flip side, outside of Yoshi and Ganondorf.

Although I haven't played him too much, I think I hate Lucario almost as much as Wolf.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS vs Bowser is basically a joke imo

 

[Zigsta]

that seems pretty far-fetched, if the opponent is good at not getting grabbed what is bowser gonna do?

Bowser's got solid range, a grab move (Klaw) with ridiculously odd properties and priority, useful tilts, and a great OoS game.

I'm not saying Bowser BEATS a lot of high/mid tier characters, but to say he has a lot of awful MUs is ridiculous.

In general, Bowser's largest problem is his lack of national representation, which causes a lot of people to make assumptions about Bowser that simply aren't true, or they assume if Bowser can't get a grab off, then he doesn't have any other options.

ZSS vs Bowser is basically a joke imo

In Zamus's favor?

Most of the Bowsers agree that it's a 50:50 MU.

 

[Poltergust]

Now that I think about it, doesn't most of Bowser's bad match-ups fall within the low-tiers?

 

[YagamiLight]

Now that I think about it, doesn't most of Bowser's bad match-ups fall within the low-tiers?

He has bad match-ups in every tier but the more dangerous ones are in high tier (as always).

 

[Zigsta]

Now that I think about it, doesn't most of Bowser's bad match-ups fall within the low-tiers?

His only three losing MUs in low tier are Samus, Zelda, and Yoshi, and they're all 60-40, which is perfectly winnable. Bowser goes even or beats all other low tier characters.

I admit I personally have more difficulty with the Yoshi MU, and I've been studying a lot of videos to see what I'm doing wrong.

 

[Poltergust]

Those were the three characters I was thinking about when I posted that, actually.

Although, most Yoshis (including me) think we have a 65:35 match-up on Bowser or even better. Where were you during our match-up discussion? XD

What is Bowser's match-up spread across the tier list?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I can't see the ZSS/Bowser match-up being any better than 7/3 (soft counter-ish) and it is definitely not even. It's ZSS' easiest match-up in my opinion, next to Ivysaur (lol fire whip killing at 70%).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Although I haven't played him too much, I think I hate Lucario almost as much as Wolf.

It's just his move-set being conveniently good at protecting Lucario from Yoshi's kill moves, among other things. If Yoshi can get the kills it's much better.

Technically I should add Sonic to that list, but I'm terrible at that MU, even when Lucario's joke that you just do stuff and you win.

 

[Zigsta]

Those were the three characters I was thinking about when I posted that, actually.

Although, most Yoshis (including me) think we have a 65:35 match-up on Bowser or even better. Where were you during our match-up discussion? XD

What is Bowser's match-up spread across the tier list?

I didn't post in the Yoshi-Bowser discussion because I feel we haven't played enough--and I haven't played properly enough--for me to shed valuable light on the subject.

As for his MUs, here's our MU chart, albeit outdated. The Bowsers have a serious problem when it comes to rediscussing MUs, largely due to the lack of Bowsers in general.

There's a bit of MU ratios I feel are dated: MK, Wario, and Falco should be 60-40, their favor; and Ike, Peach, and Zamus should be 50-50 MUs.

As for the ones that were never filled in, I feel it's 60-40 Olimar, 50-50 Sonic, 40-60 PT (Bowser's favor), 60-40 Samus, 40-60 Jigglypuff (Bowser's favor), 50-50 Captain Falcon, 50-50 Link, and 40-60 Ganon (Bowser's favor).

The reason I feel Bowser's not as bad as he's currently represented in v5 is because, unlike other low tier characters, he doesn't have that many MUs that completely shut him down. He's got a lot of 50-50s, though, even with characters below him currently, so based on pure MU ratios, I can understand why he's difficult to accurately place.

I can't see the ZSS/Bowser match-up being any better than 7/3 (soft counter-ish) and it is definitely not even. It's ZSS' easiest match-up in my opinion, next to Ivysaur (lol fire whip killing at 70%).

Just curious: What Bowsers have you played?

In my experience, a 70-30 MU is one where a moderately good player can defeat a great player who uses a terribly disadvantaged player. I'm gladly the first to admit I've only played moderately good to good Zamuses, and I haven't played the competent Zamus mains in Texas yet (which is kinda funny since we have so many now, haha). But that said, I have yet to feel Zamus shuts down Bowser in the same fashion that Diddy Kong does, for example, and absolutely not more than ICs.

I forget off the top of my head which Zamus main KingKong MM'd at Apex, but he had also been believing the MU to be 50-50, and he reinforced his notion at Apex. I'll have to look it up and get back to you.

 

[Poltergust]

It's just his move-set being conveniently good at protecting Lucario from Yoshi's kill moves, among other things. If Yoshi can get the kills it's much better.

Technically I should add Sonic to that list, but I'm terrible at that MU, even when Lucario's joke that you just do stuff and you win.

Yeah, that's what I hate about him. Up-smash is almost useless, u-air is not safe because we need to eat the first hit of his d-air to land it, and f-smash is even harder to land. So, he tends to live to huge percentages, which makes Yoshi die earlier.

He was like made to counter Yoshi... it's ridiculous.

 

[Psychoace]

I'm late to the Bowser namesearch party, but this is an inaccurate statement. Bowser's only awful MUs are ICs, MK, Diddy, and Dedede. He's got a lot of 60-40s, which are by no means awful.

Is falco a 60/40 ?

 

[Z'zgashi]

i unfortunatly have never played a good lucario, but wolf is a beast to fight...

 

[Zigsta]

Is falco a 60/40 ?

Yes, Falco is a 60-40. Falco's really annoying if he throws out a lot of lasers, but a smart Bowser player will just camp until he's out of CG range. From that point, Falco has trouble KOing Bowser. On the flipside, Falco's easy to gimp for Bowser, and Falco gets caught in Fire Breath pretty easily. Bowser's bthrow offstage to Fire Breath's a solid way to rack up damage against spacies in general.

Really annoying MU, but it's not a shutdown MU if the Bowser knows how to play it smart.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, that's what I hate about him. Up-smash is almost useless, u-air is not safe because we need to eat the first hit of his d-air to land it, and f-smash is even harder to land. So, he tends to live to huge percentages, which makes Yoshi die earlier.

He was like made to counter Yoshi... it's ridiculous.

No not really...
Yoshis up air beats lucario downair.

 

[Z'zgashi]

lol no, maybe if yur the goddess of spacing

 

[Deleted member]

only if you know how to space

Very true.

 

[Kitamerby]

Yoshi's up air beats Lucario's down air.

God that move is annoying...

 

[Psychoace]

Yes, Falco is a 60-40. Falco's really annoying if he throws out a lot of lasers, but a smart Bowser player will just camp until he's out of CG range. From that point, Falco has trouble KOing Bowser. On the flipside, Falco's easy to gimp for Bowser, and Falco gets caught in Fire Breath pretty easily. Bowser's bthrow offstage to Fire Breath's a solid way to rack up damage against spacies in general.

Really annoying MU, but it's not a shutdown MU if the Bowser knows how to play it smart.

Ok cool. I figured fsmash would be one of falco's only killing options since bair doesn't do **** and bowser's heavy anyway. Isn't it fairly easy to gimp bowser or at least set up a gimp with the chaingrab > dair of the stage? Since bowser has bad vertical recovery.

 

[Browny]

Yoshi's up air beats Lucario's down air.

God that move is annoying...

sonics fsmash beats marths fair

hurrrr

 

[Darkshadow96]

Satisfied with this tier list. Wonder if Luigi will go up a few next list...

Also, I am not surprised with the movement with Olimar/Ike/Fox.

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshis upair beats even Links dair, Yoshis upair is too good
Upsmash works really good against Lucario, why are you saying it's useless Polty? D:

 

[Browny]

I love it how you guys ignore the part where lucarios dair comes out in 4 frames and because of how it stalls him AND lingers, the only reason you ever beat it was because the lucario timed it wrong. you might as well say your dair beats mk uair because the MK used it from too far away while you fell into him during the dair

 

[Yikarur]

I love it how you don't notice the irony.

well we just said it beats Lucarios dair if they are used at the simulanteously, thats right =P

but it's nice to know that people exists who know that theoriecrafting the range of attacks sucks.
timing > range

 

[YagamiLight]

Yoshis upair beats even Links dair, Yoshis upair is too good

Does it beat Ike's Dair?

Probably not because Ike's aerials have tRaNsCeNdEnT pRiOrItY.

That actually has very little to do with anything (pretty sure it being transcendent doesn't actually mean much in aerial versus aerial) but having transcendent priority on all of your aerials is a very cool thing as it allows you to safely throw moves out versus specials (which normally clank with other aerials).

The more you know~

 

[-LzR-]

Does Ike really have trandescent priority? o_O