Official 2010-2011 Super Smash Bros. Melee MBR Tier List

[-ACE-]

I'm surprised there are people saying Falco should be high tier. Falco is insane. His approach, combos, grab setup (laser)... THE DAIR. IT'S SO GOOD. To me he's basically on the same level as Fox (not going to debate).

I hope this tier list is a rough draft, mainly because of the ties.

Good post Brookman.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

idk. Everysince I started doing the legacy vids I've found there are alot more Marths then I thought playing this game.

I can think of 40 off top now. Can't say the same for Sheik.

few in this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPIzXr42f24

This may have something to do with the fact you are a MARTH main and making a video about MARTH mains.

There are alot of sheiks out there, you just don't have the exposure to them since you've been specializing in marth, no offense.

 

[Archangel]

This may have something to do with the fact you are a MARTH main and making a video about MARTH mains.

There are alot of sheiks out there, you just don't have the exposure to them since you've been specializing in marth, no offense.

none taken

 

[Jonas]

does this tier list apply to PAL aswell?

No, Europe made their own tier list. Check the European boards

 

[Siglemic]

Fox > Puff > Falco > Fox > Puff > Falco

it's the trifecta of top tier counters !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[P. O. F.]

I used to think that the fact that this community NEVER agrees on a Tier List was an exciting aspect of Smash.............

but now.............



its just..........stupid.


The meta game is always : Who beats Fox and Falco for a few years. Cool.

Whats the Meta Game in Brawl? WHO CAN BEAT META KNIGHT!!!! lol. Oh smash brothers.

 

[Beat!]

I still don't understand why it's bad to base a tier list on the current metagame and tourney results.
I mean, sure, you can go all theoretical and say stuff like "character X beats character Y because X's attack Z is very effective against Y", but if it can't be implemented into "the real thing", then how's it a valid argument?

Or is it all about who performs best when playing "frame perfect"? Otherwise you can go all "spacies suck, because almost every character can 0-death combo them from one hit/grab, and they're ridiculousy easy to edge guard."

I'm sure there's a good reason, since so many people are against it, but I haven't read anything in this thread that I think works as a valid argument, so I'd like to see one.

 

[Siglemic]

I used to think that the fact that this community NEVER agrees on a Tier List was an exciting aspect of Smash.............

but now.............



its just..........stupid.


The meta game is always : Who beats Fox and Falco for a few years. Cool.

Whats the Meta Game in Brawl? WHO CAN BEAT META KNIGHT!!!! lol. Oh smash brothers.

no i'm pretty sure it's still interesting and exciting

 

[EPsilon933]

Imo it's pathetic. I quit.

 

[AyatoK26]

Peach is 6th now, below Jiggs....
Yink appears to be lower than Link as tiers go on....
Pichu is not the lowest anymore...

In all honesty, the last one is the only one I'm somewhat happy about...

 

[Jartravious]

Why exactly is luigi so low?

 

[GawdImFoxy]

I find this list to be completely dumb and based off tourney results. Like think about every single aspect a character has. What I mean by this is, the advantages in moves, speed, kills, edgeguarding capability, recovery, priorities in moves, camping, low-percent kill moves, and w/e else there is.

-Fox deserve top for reasons EVERYONE should know...

-Falco maybe high tier? But definitely not top tier, that is based on tournament results as well. Sure he is a combo machine, but in reality... his recovery blows, he gets gimped easily, ill let everyone else explain...

- Puff as top tier? Okay this is when I know this community just QQ's about puff. Hbox has a distinct style with puff that seems no one is able to counter except Mango. But its his style that makes him win and that he adapts with his character, its not because Jiggs is cheap, or jiggs out prioritizes moves, its because Hbox is able to adapt to another player style with jiggs cause thats his best character he thinks he can adapt with. The only reason people lose to this character is because of the idea she can gimp characters easily, she has practically a one hit kill move. This messes with the psychological aspect of the game, making players forget on how to approach this character properly. They forget to camp, take there time, move around *jiggs cant catch u with any of the top/high tier char u play* and use moves that out prioritizes hers.

- Marth? I think he deserves top tier, if not high tier is fine, but take off Falco and jiggs as top tier since it should only really be fox xD.

- Shiek is questionable... I really believe the previous tier list was better for at least these 5 characters cause all I see is tourney results. Shiek is able to camp with needles, quick on her feet, has good gimps, good recovery if used properly, any move combos into anything, iono...

These characters are questionable at where they are on the tier list, but for now all I see is tournament results. Think about the aspects of each characters ability, not the person playing the character.

What? Sheik's got a good recovery? She has over 9000 frames of "hey beat the **** out of me as I land pl0x."

Falco deserves top because he can shoot, as well. He just has a lot of options in any given situation. His easily obtainable combo status doesn't help him fall short of top tier by anyone's standards.

Marth doesn't really do a whole lot. People are catching on because he's running out of new tricks.

Puff... where to start... Puff is gay. Wobbles said it best when he pointed out that gayness is heavier than true skill. Puff has the potential to put Melee on easy mode. It goes without saying that her ability to camp b-airs, gimp like a champ, and combo into rest doesn't leave much to be desired in her metagame. Her only downsides are lack of projectiles and mediocre weight class.

As for my opinion, I think Doc and Samus should be switched, and IC's should be moved up a tier. Wobbling is becoming all but uncommon in these times.

 

[Winston]

Why exactly is luigi so low?

because all the characters above him are better

 

[ChivalRuse]

What? Sheik's got a good recovery? She has over 9000 frames of "hey beat the **** out of me as I land pl0x."

It's not that easy to edgeguard good Sheiks.

 

[Vudujin]

smash 64 - tier list says Mario (i thought it was luigi but I guess I'm wrong)
melee - about the same
Brawl - Luigi by far
Mario Kart 64 (only one I know of) - Mario but they both kinda suck worst 2 characters in that game (same stats, but Mario's heavier, but they both basically suck)
Mario Bros. 2 - Luigi by far
Galaxy - Luigi? (I think.... jumps higher but worse traction but I think Luigi's levels were harder idk I forget)

overall it's pretty balanced but Luigi is generally better by a small amount on average

He's worse in every Mario Kart because of his weird weight class, he's always a technical middleweight but treated as a lightweight. He's worse in EVERY sports game, so that's like 15 games already. The only games where he has the advantage is Lost Levels, Mario Bros. 2, Brawl, and Galaxy. 4 out of 20 some games where he's better. Mario's got too much pride on the line.

Imo, he's the best in N64 Mario Parties.

 

[Siglemic]

What? Sheik's got a good recovery? She has over 9000 frames of "hey beat the **** out of me as I land pl0x."

Falco deserves top because he can shoot, as well. He just has a lot of options in any given situation. His easily obtainable combo status doesn't help him fall short of top tier by anyone's standards.

Marth doesn't really do a whole lot. People are catching on because he's running out of new tricks.

Puff... where to start... Puff is gay. Wobbles said it best when he pointed out that gayness is heavier than true skill. Puff has the potential to put Melee on easy mode. It goes without saying that her ability to camp b-airs, gimp like a champ, and combo into rest doesn't leave much to be desired in her metagame. Her only downsides are lack of projectiles and mediocre weight class.

As for my opinion, I think Doc and Samus should be switched, and IC's should be moved up a tier. Wobbling is becoming all but uncommon in these times.

you're hella biased dude.

 

[Dark Hart]

As much as I agree with people when they say that Jiggz shouldn't be top tier because of reason 'X', I can't help but think... a jiggz has won almost every major tournament for 2 years and that has to mean something.

 

[AyatoK26]

The gayness of Jiggs came after the MK mains found the closest thing to MK in Melee.

 

[BunBun]

what does negligible mean

It means we don't matter lol


To the European dude talking about Kirby: Kirby got a buff in PAL. Being harder to kill =decently significant buff. The associative changes that go with being a bit chunkier also help kirby a good bit.

He's still bad in PAL, but not to the trash tier level that he and Pichu are in NTSC.

 

[Mogwai]

The gayness of Jiggs came after the MK mains found the closest thing to MK in Melee.

Mango and HBox were pre-brawl...

 

[JPOBS]

Anyone who thinks falco is worst than 3rd best are smoking something fierce. he could be #1 but people wont let go of the idea that "super theoretical fox > everything"

 

[Mogwai]

super theory bros melee is srs bizness jpobs.

 

[Vudujin]

I think with puff's numerous amounts of tourney victories and current position on the list will indefinitely change the meta if even in the slightest. As someone previously stated, people forget to play defensively against her, because we're so used to the blinding speed and aggression from spacies and whatnot. However people will learn to adapt to it, and the list will change once again. Mid to lower tiers often cater to a more defensive and reactive play-style which leads me to believe that the next significant change in the list will have some of the potentially awesome mid tiers moving up.

This list blows.

 

[Jim Morrison]

To the European dude talking about Kirby: Kirby got a buff in PAL. Being harder to kill =decently significant buff. The associative changes that go with being a bit chunkier also help kirby a good bit.

He's still bad in PAL, but not to the trash tier level that he and Pichu are in NTSC.

if youre **** youre still **** bro

 

[Smooth Criminal]

As much as I agree with people when they say that Jiggz shouldn't be top tier because of reason 'X', I can't help but think... a jiggz has won almost every major tournament for 2 years and that has to mean something.

I can count two Jiggs players. Not like there's Jigglypuffs running rampant and snagging up places in every other kind of tournament you can think of. Not discounting Darc or Raistlin's great placement in nationals though; those guys did hella good and (as far as Darc's concerned at least) they still are.

I still don't agree with Jiggs' placement, but everything else seems spot-on.

Smooth Criminal

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

yeah, 1 guy yep. trolls

Yea your right i am a troll how could i think one guy showing potential of a character would mean that character is better then people give it credit for and therefore the character should be higher on the tier list *cough* Axe, Taj, Casmo *cough* man do i feel foolish

 

[GawdImFoxy]

you're hella biased dude.

I don't mean to sound bias. I tried to be reasonably unbias. Sorry about that, man.

What made that sound bias? I tried to avoid saying, "this character's good, but just because I'm saying so." But I don't mean to be a jerk if I came off that way.

 

[Niko45]

The "Jiggs is too high" arguments are pretty baffling, considering that this tier list honestly places Jiggs as low as is justifiably possible.

My favorite has to be the "Jiggs is too high" plus the "This is based too heavily on tourney results!" combo argument. If it was based on tourney results purely, Jiggs would be in its own top tier, so for all the people who (for whatever reason) are so passionate about Jiggs being too high, why don't you just be grateful that Jiggs wasn't placed higher than a 3-way tie, which was probably done only to try to limit the amount of huge terribly wrong walls of text that would result.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

dude armada had proven himself to be one of the top players in the world and best peach since before i had even signed up here.

and your assumptions about how japan sucked aren't based on anything

when did he prove he was one of the best in the WORLD before genesis? I don't think anyone outside of euro even cared about armada until genesis. i'd say that's when it was proven.

my assumptions on it don't really matter. the point is, fumi would get ***** nowadays.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually niko, if this were based on tournament results fox would still have an arm, leg and **** ahead of puff in terms of points. See: CRL

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's not that easy to edgeguard good Sheiks.

.____________.

edit: I think Puff is 3rd.

 

[Merkuri]

Actually niko, if this were based on tournament results fox would still have an arm, leg and **** ahead of puff in terms of points. See: CRL

CRL takes into consideration rankings at all skill levels. People are saying that Jigs is broken at the top level. The tier list is based on the top level.

 

[exarch]

Icys should at least be up in the same tier with CF and Peach.

Average tournament placing for an Icy player is probably better than either of the other two. They're not played as frequently but still place comparitively well absolutely. Relatively, they're placing better than the cfs/peachs who have a bunch that don't make it out of pools.

While you can argue that Armada and Scar/Darkrain are just amazing, there's not enough icy players to convince me that Wobbles and Chu are outliers to the potential general icy skill level. Even if they are, there's still much more justification to put Icys up the tier rather than down where they are now--Wobbles and Chu place as well as the really good peachs/cfs and significantly better than Ganons/Samus. They have a consistency that does not exist with the other characters in their current tier, and should not be grouped with them.

That's probably the biggest/most obvious screw up in this tier list.

 

[Dark Hart]

Icys should at least be up in the same tier with CF and Peach.

Average tournament placing for an Icy player is probably better than either of the other two. They're not played as frequently but still place comparitively well absolutely. Relatively, they're placing better than the cfs/peachs who have a bunch that don't make it out of pools.

While you can argue that Armada and Scar/Darkrain are just amazing, there's not enough icy players to convince me that Wobbles and Chu are outliers to the potential general icy skill level. Even if they are, there's still much more justification to put Icys up the tier rather than down where they are now--Wobbles and Chu place as well as the really good peachs/cfs and significantly better than Ganons/Samus. They have a consistency that does not exist with the other characters in their current tier, and should not be grouped with them.

That's probably the biggest/most obvious screw up in this tier list.

to bad people only care about purin...

 

[P. O. F.]

People who think that Marth is 5th....are pretty out of the loop and really just base how good a character is off of two things:

How many people are playing that character
TOURNAMENTS!!!


Tier Lists need to be gathered by a few factors and NOT JUST TOURNAMENTS.

Match ups
Top Level Player opinions on mus from experience
tournament results


Like seriously, Jigs is NOT TOP TIER and here are a few reasons why

Marth
Fox
Ganon
Peach
Falcon

are all problematic for her. Not at a DISADVANTAGE but most of these are not easy for her and I think all of this can be argued for 50/50 for the most part.

Lets look at Fox:

Who does he LOSE to? I'd say Marth. Why? Falco is 3X harder for Marth because lasers KILL his ability and negate his entire defensive and approach game. Most Marths and Fox's would agree on Marth winning 60/40. He beats Everyone else in the game with maybe Falco being even. I still don't think Falco wins...if he does....its not by much.

Fox is the best. He is not even w Falco and Jigs. Definitely not and anyone should know this.



Think About It. Stages that are good for him, stage control, recovery, quick gimps, speed, pressure...hes the whole package.

Falco is pretty good but he gets ***** by random characters such as Ice Climbers, Peach, Jigs, and I think there is an argument to say even Luigi. LOL. What? Yeah, top tier guys. Not to mention he really doesn't dominate on counter picks AT ALL. Rainbow Cruise? Brinstar? Yeah. hes awesome there. LOL, what?

Now Marth does lose to Falco, Sheik and i think theres an argument for Jigs. Who else? I think people are dismissing Marth because M2K doesn't play him anymore. But the fact is is that if people played Marth and won more often everyone would be like "zomg! hes soooo good."

Sheik is NOT better than Marth. Loses to jigs, Even Falco, loses to Fox, even w iceys, unsafe recovery and less durability w counter picks than Marth. LOL sheik on Rainbow? Free whatever you want when she hits up B. LOL kongo? Free whatever if she tries to go for the stage.

Marths recovery is amazing (have you guys seen G Money recover?) he has the best set of aerials in the ENTIRE game if you tipper them. No one can get in. It's difficult but in theory, it is true.

You guys should go watch Strawhat, and Adam from Europe and then go tell me Marth is not 4th. Not my fault everyone in America sucks at playing Marth.

I think because two kids are dominating tournaments everyone magically thinks Jigs is amazing. (With all do respect Darc is not as dominant in Singles.....)


Take this as a quick example: MaNg0s Mario. Mario is obviously NOT TOP TIER. But guys, come on...hes winning TOURNAMENTS. Right? The logic of just using tournaments to compile results is utter fail.



Have you guys seen the SSF4 tier list? Chun Li, Guile, and Bison do not dominate tournaments and they are top tier.






With all do respect it is also obvious that the past tier lists ARE made up based off of tournament results strictly.

First set of tier lists: Sheik ***** tournaments. Shes the best. (in theory, she was.....everyone hated playing her!)
Next set: Marths tied with Fox! He beats Fox! M2K and Ken for life!
Third Set: ZOMG! Darc, Hbox, and ManG0.

Get the picture? Everyone just meat rides who is winning tournaments. Its perfectly fine to take an aspect of determining a list from tournaments but you just can't use that.

Daigo wins all the SF tournaments with Ryu. Hes god tier I guess because he wins every Evo every year with Ryu.

 

[Niko45]

Actually niko, if this were based on tournament results fox would still have an arm, leg and **** ahead of puff in terms of points. See: CRL

CRL is flawed in that character popularity plays a huge role in those rankings. Fox gets a huge boost from such a system.

 

[GawdImFoxy]

People who think that Marth is 5th....are pretty out of the loop and really just base how good a character is off of two things:

How many people are playing that character
TOURNAMENTS!!!


Tier Lists need to be gathered by a few factors and NOT JUST TOURNAMENTS.

Match ups
Top Level Player opinions on mus from experience
tournament results


Like seriously, Jigs is NOT TOP TIER and here are a few reasons why

Marth
Fox
Ganon
Peach
Falcon

are all problematic for her. Not at a DISADVANTAGE but most of these are not easy for her and I think all of this can be argued for 50/50 for the most part.

Lets look at Fox:

Who does he LOSE to? I'd say Marth. Why? Falco is 3X harder for Marth because lasers KILL his ability and negate his entire defensive and approach game. Most Marths and Fox's would agree on Marth winning 60/40. He beats Everyone else in the game with maybe Falco being even. I still don't think Falco wins...if he does....its not by much.

Fox is the best. He is not even w Falco and Jigs. Definitely not and anyone should know this.



Think About It. Stages that are good for him, stage control, recovery, quick gimps, speed, pressure...hes the whole package.

Falco is pretty good but he gets ***** by random characters such as Ice Climbers, Peach, Jigs, and I think there is an argument to say even Luigi. LOL. What? Yeah, top tier guys. Not to mention he really doesn't dominate on counter picks AT ALL. Rainbow Cruise? Brinstar? Yeah. hes awesome there. LOL, what?

Now Marth does lose to Falco, Sheik and i think theres an argument for Jigs. Who else? I think people are dismissing Marth because M2K doesn't play him anymore. But the fact is is that if people played Marth and won more often everyone would be like "zomg! hes soooo good."

Sheik is NOT better than Marth. Loses to jigs, Even Falco, loses to Fox, even w iceys, unsafe recovery and less durability w counter picks than Marth. LOL sheik on Rainbow? Free whatever you want when she hits up B. LOL kongo? Free whatever if she tries to go for the stage.

Marths recovery is amazing (have you guys seen G Money recover?) he has the best set of aerials in the ENTIRE game if you tipper them. No one can get in. It's difficult but in theory, it is true.

You guys should go watch Strawhat, and Adam from Europe and then go tell me Marth is not 4th. Not my fault everyone in America sucks at playing Marth.

I think because two kids are dominating tournaments everyone magically thinks Jigs is amazing. (With all do respect Darc is not as dominant in Singles.....)


Take this as a quick example: MaNg0s Mario. Mario is obviously NOT TOP TIER. But guys, come on...hes winning TOURNAMENTS. Right? The logic of just using tournaments to compile results is utter fail.



Have you guys seen the SSF4 tier list? Chun Li, Guile, and Bison do not dominate tournaments and they are top tier.






With all do respect it is also obvious that the past tier lists ARE made up based off of tournament results strictly.

First set of tier lists: Sheik ***** tournaments. Shes the best. (in theory, she was.....everyone hated playing her!)
Next set: Marths tied with Fox! He beats Fox! M2K and Ken for life!
Third Set: ZOMG! Darc, Hbox, and ManG0.

Get the picture? Everyone just meat rides who is winning tournaments. Its perfectly fine to take an aspect of determining a list from tournaments but you just can't use that.

Daigo wins all the SF tournaments with Ryu. Hes god tier I guess because he wins every Evo every year with Ryu.

There's one MAJOR flaw in this logic. You didn't take into account metagame, which is the deciding factor 100% of the time.

 

[Mogwai]

P.O.F. does not play this game competitively anymore and hasn't for some time now. I wouldn't recommend spending too much dwelling on his opinion of a current tier list.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

when did he prove he was one of the best in the WORLD before genesis? I don't think anyone outside of euro even cared about armada until genesis. i'd say that's when it was proven.

my assumptions on it don't really matter. the point is, fumi would get ***** nowadays.

if by "outside of euro" you mean "america" youd be right. however as hard as it might be for you to beleive the world is actually bigger then that.

armada had actually proven himself in international tournaments where japan had participated before genesis. unlike many of the american pros that you guys have touted as one of the best players in the world that have never even interacted with anyone outside of the us

if fumi came back and would actually care to adapt to the current metage i think hed do well.
i also like how you completely ignore svampen who as far as im concerned has done even more then fumi to prove himself.

 

[VGmasta]

Low tier doesn't seem so bad now that there's a "Negligible" tier :\ At least there isn't a gap (as in characters between) between Doc and Mario but I'm still disgruntled that the two are in different tiers D;

HA! You're just mad cuz Doc is better!....
And I'm just mad cuz Ganon is better