Official 2010-2011 Super Smash Bros. Melee MBR Tier List

[GawdImFoxy]

I don't plan on it. doesn't seem like he knows a whoooole lot about the game, but I'm just shooting from the hip on that assumption.

Also, I think the list looks reasonably good for the most part. But as they say... haters gonna hate. Can't please everybody and everybody's gonna have different opinions, but I, for one, respect the MBR, even if I don't agree with EVERY SINGLE PLACEMENT. In the end, it doesn't matter. Puff's a good character, Fox is a good character. So is Falco. And Marth, Sheik, Falcon, Peach, IC's, among others.

But to be frank, I think a lot of people just think Puff needs moved down so they don't feel so gay for using her. Just sayin'.

Edit: sorry for that enormous run-on in that second shoddy *** paragraph.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

if by "outside of euro" you mean "america" youd be right. however as hard as it might be for you to beleive the world is actually bigger then that.

armada had actually proven himself in international tournaments where japan had participated before genesis. unlike many of the american pros that you guys have touted as one of the best players in the world that have never even interacted with anyone outside of the us

edit-read that wrong. an international tournament for melee outside of america is hardly an international. if you're referring to oldddddddd *** days with makashi or whoever then sure yeah he did good then, but how do those old *** internationals even show anyone he's one of the top in the world currently?

You also seem to call out america for that, but our country is different in the smash scene, it's more likely for people to come to america for melee given it's KNOWN as the best country for the game. People come to us, that's how it works.

What 'pros' are people touting about that wouldn't do successful out of country anyways?

 

[The King]

This tier list means next to nothing without a detailed explanation of the parameters observed in coming to each spot's conclusion. The reason that all-encompassing tier lists like this always fall short and end up drenched in controversy is because the lists are often formed by combining multiple seta of data that may or may not be related.

People try to make a tier list by drawing data from the following subsets of information:
-Individual character matchup matrices
-Tournament results
-Personal opinions regarding character potential
-Individual-player dominance over a current metagame

And the community wonders why the overall tier-list product receives criticism...

While, in theory, it could be possible to create an overall list that takes all the above subsets into consideration, the problem is that the individual judges assign arbitrary or drastically-differing values of worth to each subset with respect to one another.

That huge problem aside, another one awaits for the judge even if they can someone weigh each subset equally. It's because, in a sense, even these subsets take on a certain rock-paper-scissors quality when comparing them.
-Tournament results are at the whim of which of the community's dominant players are in attendance, not to mention that many good players can, and do use multiple characters throughout a tournament
-Character matchups are at the whim of not only tournament results, AND at the whim of said results being skewed by a "better" character running into a "worse" character controlled by a much better Player, but also hypotheticals relating to each character's "potential"... considering that many character's realized potentials have evolved greatly over the years, this is another touchy one.
-Character potential is often at the whim of not only experienced player input, but also of data-backed tournament results and realistic character-matchup analyses based on our current metagame.


In short... making any kind of perfect tier list is impossible (or only approaches certainty as the lifespan of the tier list approaches 0 seconds) due to ever-changing factors and judges' misconceptions, inexperience and bias... though introducing a tier list with a "margin of error" of sorts, something around +/- two tierlist spots, could work lol.

IMO, just make a compendium thread linking the matchup thread, tournament results thread + the CRL thread for melee I remember seeing a while back, and let people draw their own conclusions. After all, that's how this list is formed in the first place lol.

 

[Stevo]

when did he prove he was one of the best in the WORLD before genesis? I don't think anyone outside of euro even cared about armada until genesis. i'd say that's when it was proven.

my assumptions on it don't really matter. the point is, fumi would get ***** nowadays.

he proved himself as one of the best in the WORLD just as much as any player from America had at that time. Which is by being the best in their region of the world.

 

[Lordydennek]

Fox Falco Jiggs Sheik Marth
Jiggs Fox Falco Marth Sheik
Marth Fox Jiggs Sheik Falco
Falco Sheik Marth Fox Jiggs
Sheik Jiggs Falco Marth Fox

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

he proved himself as one of the best in the WORLD just as much as any player from America had at that time. Which is by being the best in their region of the world.

I know it sounds ignorant but I mean with that sense you could say some guy in sombabway is one of the best in the world for being best in his region..I also get that you're saying it in a LITERAL sense, using WORLD as an explanation of each region, but that's definitely not what i meant by "best in the world".. say 20 random guys in america are considered the top 20 in the world, i wouldn't say that some guy who's best in europe but like ranked WAY lower than those americans should be considered one of the best in the world, just cause he's best in his region.

I mean it's the reason why people doubted armada before he came here. Everyone knows america has the best scene, so when people hear about armada and him being **** in europe and everywhere but america, not a lot of people care. But then he does good in america and bame, instant fame.

 

[Mogwai]

I know it sounds ignorant but I mean with that sense you could say some guy in sombabway is one of the best in the world for being best in his region..

I mean it's the reason why people doubted armada before he came here. Everyone knows america has the best scene, so when people hear about armada and him being **** in europe and everywhere but america, not a lot of people care. But then he does good in america and bame, instant fame.

I just bolded the part that makes the rest of the world angry. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but basically there's so little going on in the way of an international scene that it's a bit presumptuous to just throw this out there like it's irrefutable fact.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

it does sound ignorant but seriously as knowledged as you are mogwai how could it not be fact?

 

[Stevo]

Canada has a population of like 15 people and we can keep up in American tournies.

just sayin.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

an international tournament for melee outside of america is hardly an international.

i should put this in my signature for the comedic value of the pure stupidity

and ive never said that any of the people you guys touted wouldnt do well, i simply pointed out they hadnt. they were in the same position that armada was in back in the days when people said armada wasnt even one of the best peaches.

this is dumb, i can keep this going without exaggarating or even trying because youre just so ****ing stupid lol

I mean it's the reason why people doubted armada before he came here. Everyone knows america has the best scene, so when people hear about armada and him being **** in europe and everywhere but america, not a lot of people care. But then he does good in america and bame, instant fame.

you think that this is the case, but its not. he just became famous IN AMERICA, which againt might be hard for you to beleive, is NOT the center of the world.
note that the majority of european smashers dont post or even visit this website.

 

[Mogwai]

it does sound ignorant but seriously as knowledged as you are mogwai how could it not be fact?

because Europe has had a significant presence at exactly 1 USA tourney in the past like, 3 years?

I mean, yea, sure, when they have come, our best beat their best, but w/e, we're playing NTSC, they play PAL. They have to travel 6+ hours just to get here, are jetlagged and trying to make the most of a trip 1/4 the way around the world. w/e, johns johns johns, my point is that Pound 4 was one tourney and while it says something... it doesn't paint the whole picture.

I guess it's not just that you're saying the American scene is the best, it's more about how you're saying it. It's the way you're making unsubstantiable claims and presenting them as fact (Fumi would get ***** by the current US scene) rather than having some humility and stating it as what it is (speculation, Vectorman's Yoshi looks more sophisticated than what we've seen of Fumi's).

 

[john!]

My favorite part of tier list threads is when people think their theorycraft tier lists are more accurate than tier lists based off actual tournament data from top professionals. No scientific hypothesis will ever be taken seriously without results to back it up. And yes, I think sorting the characters into tiers is a science, in its own way.

 

[Winston]

^ If it is then it's something like a Social Science, haha.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i should put this in my signature for the comedic value of the pure stupidity

and ive never said that any of the people you guys touted wouldnt do well, i simply pointed out they hadnt. they were in the same position that armada was in back in the days when people said armada wasnt even one of the best peaches.

this is dumb, i can keep this going without exaggarating or even trying because youre just so ****ing stupid lol

k uh, when was the last big international outside of america had that showed tons of other people from around the world?

and okay so why even bring that up? didn't you 'tout' about armada for months before he came to genesis? let's not forget you trying to do that again for pound only to look like a dumb4ss :D didn't he get 6-0'd in finals/gfs? what were you thinking?

idk why youre even arguing with me to say he was proven as a top player in the world before genesis is stupid

 

[BunBun]

King's post seems to have been essentially ignored.



Anyway, read and agreed, but that will never happen. People want to see and argue over a "concrete" list.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

CRL is flawed in that character popularity plays a huge role in those rankings. Fox gets a huge boost from such a system.

how is that different from the flaw in this tier list?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

back to the original argument, why do you keep ignoring svampen trahh?
he'd play dead even with all the top pros in sweden at that time (including helios, who went to the US and got 9th at fc6)

k uh, when was the last big international outside of america had that showed tons of other people from around the world?

and okay so why even bring that up? didn't you 'tout' about armada for months before he came to genesis? let's not forget you trying to do that again for pound only to look like a dumb4ss :D didn't he get 6-0'd in finals/gfs? what were you thinking?

idk why youre even arguing with me to say he was proven as a top player in the world before genesis is stupid

i dont know, i think esa2 was the last tournament with japanese players? although a guy came for costa rica for stiig lol
anyway by your logic someone like say mew2king or mango hadnt proven himself as a top player either until genesis.

i also NEVER hyped up armada for pound 4. it NEVER happened. i dare you to find a post of me even mentioning pound 4 until after the tournament, lol

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

meant apex

"anyway by your logic someone like say mew2king or mango hadnt proven himself as a top player either until genesis."

i don't get how this is my logic. my logic is (and my opinion) that america is the best, and has been for awhile now, so when a player from out of country does well here, they're proving themselves. why would m2k or mango, already known as top competitors re-prove themselves in their own country?

also you wanted to quote me on my stupidity for something you couldn't even back up? ESA2? LOOOOL.

back to the original argument, why do you keep ignoring svampen trahh?

i also have no idea what this means

 

[GreatRit]

Puff is #3
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[Winston]

how is that different from the flaw in this tier list?

well hopefully this list is based more on the theoretical implications of the tournament results rather than just the results themselves.

who knows how it was really made though. (see: king's post)

 

[Niko45]

well hopefully this list is based more on the theoretical implications of the tournament results rather than just the results themselves.

who knows how it was really made though. (see: king's post)

Uh, quite honestly, I think it was made by mostly copy pasting KK's tier list and then making some of the more heavily debated issues turn into ties so that no one actually had to make any hard decisions or think very much about this. Not that I have a problem with this really, its a basic outline that most people at this point have been well aware of for some time, and considering how outdated the previous list was, I'll take it.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

meant apex

"anyway by your logic someone like say mew2king or mango hadnt proven himself as a top player either until genesis."

i don't get how this is my logic. my logic is (and my opinion) that america is the best, and has been for awhile now, so when a player from out of country does well here, they're proving themselves. why would m2k or mango, already known as top competitors re-prove themselves in their own country?

also you wanted to quote me on my stupidity for something you couldn't even back up? ESA2? LOOOOL.



i also have no idea what this means

why do you keep ignoring the yoshi player svampen?

"by your logic" i meant that international tournaments in america are the only that matter. i didnt think you where so stupid to have the opinion that american tournaments are the only ones that say anything about how good a player is. but i guess you are.

and i realize you are also so stupid you dont even understand why the part of your post that i quoted is stupid.

this is way to easy LOL

 

[Dark Hart]

... I agree with what The King said lol

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

why do you keep ignoring the yoshi player svampen?

"by your logic" i meant that international tournaments in america are the only that matter. i didnt think you where so stupid to have the opinion that american tournaments are the only ones that say anything about how good a player is. but i guess you are.

and i realize you are also so stupid you dont even understand why the part of your post that i quoted is stupid.

this is way to easy LOL

LOOOL agh, this is boring you're strawmanning and throwing out things i never said

sure guy


also kings post was perfect

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

LOOOL agh, this is boring you're strawmanning and throwing out things i never said

sure guy


also kings post was perfect

i never said that you said anything you didnt. read your own posts carefully.
and above all stop ignoring svampen you stupid piece of ****

 

[bossa nova ♪]

lol i just wannna know how people decided to separate the first two tiers and how that relates to every other tier division...

cuz i mean like... out of the Sacred Seven, there are 5 chars that are acceptable to be considered "best in the game", and then there are two (Peach and Falcon) that aren't. i.e. if you have the opinion that any char in the group of Sheik/Marth/Falco/Jigglypuff/Fox is the best, you may get some disagreement, but it would be an arguable matter. if you said Peach or Falcon is best you'd get some of these -> "o.O" cuz you should be trolling if you say that.

in other words... i think top tier should be those 5 simply cuz it's cool for any of them to be seen as best in melee.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i never said that you said anything you didnt. read your own posts carefully.
and above all stop ignoring svampen you stupid piece of ****

can't you tell i'm ignoring it because i don't care anymore( i honestly didn't even see you bring this svampen into topic, regardless, completelllllllllllllllllllllly irelevant)? are you ******** or what

you never said that i said anything i didn't? wtf does that even mean?

"i didnt think you where so stupid to have the opinion that american tournaments are the only ones that say anything about how good a player is. but i guess you are."

i'm pretty sure i never once said that, so you're not putting words in my mouth?

 

[_Rocky_]

Mikehaggar: NTSC tourneys apply to NTSC tier lists only, same goes for PAL (hurr durr)
How svampen did with yoshi is irrelevant in ntsc
I'm pretty sure you know this already, so don't make yourself seem dumb

All in all, I like the list. The negligible tier was a bit of a cop out though =/

 

[DJMirror]

go ahead and explain i'm dying to hear how i'm ********

have you been to Japan and play them to call them scrubby? I haven't but I'm sure Toph (Hey Toph, feel free to correct me on this) can give us some insight on the players like Kou, Tani, Mach Dash, Koto etc. on it. I'm sure they can be at most top 20 to 30 in the world.

I know it's friendlies but you have seen KDJ vs some of the Japanese players (one of them was Koto for sure) They were doing good/ok against KDJ with one or two matches they got ***** (C'mon it's KDJ!) It shows that as long it's FD they can do well/go even with some of the players here but they're not going to do that well against someone like M2K (M2K would tap so hard on Japan since it's FD only) JMAN, HBOX, HugS, Lucky, SS, Darkrain etc but if it's on a different stage like BF, PS, YS, FoD etc I'm sure that they are not going to do well as they do on FD (Unless they have been playing other stages in friendlies or some other unknown factors)

You can't really call Japan "scrubby" even if you're just basing on old school retired melee players like Bombsolider, Fumi, Aniki etc. In 2005 or 2006, Bombsolider almost beat Ken. So Japan lost to Ken, is that scrubby? Ken back then was the king, no one could beat/take a match off of him unless you're Azen, KDJ, PC, M2K etc. and I'm sure all of us back then were all scrubs yes, even you and me.

Of course Fumi back then and now wouldn't do so hot since he retired(?)
I know this long *** post is not going to change your mind but I'm sure after the result of Genesis 2 (Hopefully they'll go to that sick *** tournament) we'll see if Japan is what you call scrubby because look what happen with Europe before Genesis 1, Armada did **** good taking out DSW, M2K, Mango, Lucky etc. Pound 4, you had Overtriforce, Armada, Strawhat, Amash (is that how you spell his name?) Zgetto etc made into brackets.

Ehh >.> please excuse the long post, I kinda got carry away.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

can't you tell i'm ignoring it because i don't care anymore( i honestly didn't even see you bring this svampen into topic, regardless, completelllllllllllllllllllllly irelevant)? are you ******** or what

you never said that i said anything i didn't? wtf does that even mean?

"i didnt think you where so stupid to have the opinion that american tournaments are the only ones that say anything about how good a player is. but i guess you are."

i'm pretty sure i never once said that, so you're not putting words in my mouth?

the argument started out about yoshi, where i mentioned svampen but you ignored him.

im very certain you said that only american tournaments matter when it comes to determining who the top players are. or are you finally admitting that armada did, in fact, prove himself prior to genesis?

 

[jugfingers]

not that tier lists really matter at all but I really fail to understand two things

1. why isn't pikchu mid tier at least?

2. why isn't peach up with marth and sheik.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

have you been to Japan and play them to call them scrubby? I haven't but I'm sure Toph (Hey Toph, feel free to correct me on this) can give us some insight on the players like Kou, Tani, Mach Dash, Koto etc. on it. I'm sure they can be at most top 20 to 30 in the world.

I know it's friendlies but you have seen KDJ vs some of the Japanese players (one of them was Koto for sure) They were doing good/ok against KDJ with one or two matches they got ***** (C'mon it's KDJ!)

Yeah, I watched those friendlies..I wouldn't consider this the best example. They do mediocre at best and that's on their best( and only?) stage..not to mention KDJ isn't even a top contendor anymore and he's just toying with them, it's apparent. You reminding me that they only use FD as a legal only makes me think they'd do worse here.... speaking of armada/japan, that japanese marth (makenshi?) played armada in grand finals at some huge tournament and you'll never guess the only stage the japanese guy won on. of course following that he lost the tourny.

It shows that as long it's FD they can do well/go even with some of the players here but they're not going to do that well against someone like M2K (M2K would tap so hard on Japan since it's FD only) JMAN, HBOX, HugS, Lucky, SS, Darkrain etc but if it's on a different stage like BF, PS, YS, FoD etc I'm sure that they are not going to do well as they do on FD (Unless they have been playing other stages in friendlies or some other unknown factors)

wat

You can't really call Japan "scrubby" even if you're just basing on old school retired melee players like Bombsolider, Fumi, Aniki etc. In 2005 or 2006, Bombsolider almost beat Ken. So Japan lost to Ken, is that scrubby? Ken back then was the king, no one could beat/take a match off of him unless you're Azen, KDJ, PC, M2K etc. and I'm sure all of us back then were all scrubs yes, even you and me.

I'm not basing it off old school players, Fumi just came up. Bombsoldier was a legend, a starting factor in the early metagame, I find that completely different in comparing current top level players in japan to our best now.

Of course Fumi back then and now wouldn't do so hot since he retired(?)
I know this long *** post is not going to change your mind but I'm sure after the result of Genesis 2 (Hopefully they'll go to that sick *** tournament) we'll see if Japan is what you call scrubby because look what happen with Europe before Genesis 1, Armada did **** good taking out DSW, M2K, Mango, Lucky etc. Pound 4, you had Overtriforce, Armada, Strawhat, Amash (is that how you spell his name?) Zgetto etc made into brackets.

that'd be cool and all but these good players from europe at least had some stuff to back them up. I don't think you'll find anything present involving amazing japanese melee players.


i also expected alot better of a response considering you called me "****ing ********"
don't talk **** unless you expect it back
learn grammar before you type

the argument started out about yoshi, where i mentioned svampen but you ignored him.

im very certain you said that only american tournaments matter when it comes to determining who the top players are. or are you finally admitting that armada did, in fact, prove himself prior to genesis?

i'm over it dawg

 

[DJMirror]

i also expected alot better of a response considering you called me "****ing ********"

I didn't have to meet your expection since you're not worth it

don't talk **** unless you expect it back
learn to type before attempting grammar period

I already know what to expect the moment i reply back. It doesn't matter if I have horrible/good grammar period as long I get to the point, it's fine. It doesn't mean anything much when you're getting your point across.

i'm over it dawg

Then if you're over it why are you respond back? What's your point?

 

[KAOSTAR]

What? No complaints about m2 > zelda?

only thing that actually matters is that mewtwo wins the MU.

list looks good tho.

of course I did want to say mewtwo was low tier, but since we added upper lol.

lmao @ trahh. ur doing the same thing you accused me of doing
, except ur clearly wrong. us ***** but other countries do have smash. forcing opinions as facts....too good.

as far as japan goes-toph says alot of them ****. from what I hear mach dash could be the best falcon (assuming mango doesn't count).

 

[Athkore]

i also have no idea what this means

lol on the boy who didn't know about the yoshi that beat Captain Jack in europe ;D

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I didn't have to meet your expection since you're not worth it



I already know what to expect the moment i reply back. It doesn't matter if I have horrible/good grammar period as long I get to the point, it's fine. It doesn't mean anything much when you're getting your point across.



Then if you're over it why are you respond back? What's your point?

so i'm not worth it but i'm worth typing out like 6 paragraphs to make a point?

and i was over discussing anything with mikehagger. i just felt like it was tension going no where.

as far as japan goes-toph says alot of them ****. from what I hear mach dash could be the best falcon (assuming mango doesn't count).

i could beleive they were decent if i heard it from a reliable person, but to hear some japanese guy is a better falcon than ss/rain/hax/many others is farfetched but not saying it isn't possible.

 

[rhan]

Young Link is not tied with Roy.. Roy is so bad.

Make a tier list that based on match-up and not people's difficulties with Jiggs.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

a tier list souly on one thing is so flawed it's ********. most match-ups don't mean s*** like zedla vs link if link wins that MU should he be any higher if he lost it? also MUs are also somewhat flawed at what level are the players, and how do they play? mango's way of play may make sme MUs easier/harder but pure camping may make it easier or harder for some match-ups

 

[DJMirror]

so i'm not worth it but i'm worth typing out like 6 paragraphs to make a point?

and i was over discussing anything with mikehagger. i just felt like it was tension going no where.

it doesn't matter if my respond to you was long or not. I was just hoping that I didn't meet your expection.

I called you a ****ing ******** because you had no idea about Japan's skill level back then or even now. I could say the same thing about Nevada's smash scene. I can say that all the players over there are all scrubs and not know about the skill level back then or now.

I typed out 4 paragraphs not 6. Please learn to count.

lmao @ trahh. ur doing the same thing you accused me of doing
, except ur clearly wrong. us ***** but other countries do have smash. forcing opinions as facts....too good.

Dude like a good example

In EVO 2010 SSF4, Gamerbee (From Taiwan) beat J.Wong! You can't say **** about that! Plus that one Akuma Korean player ***** at EVO. America ***** in smash and I agree that it's the best country in the world for smash but it doesn't mean all the players are godlike or close to it.

 

[Hazygoose]

I know it sounds ignorant but I mean with that sense you could say some guy in sombabway is one of the best in the world for being best in his region

i'm the best in sombabway
if anyone wants to refute me, come play me
good luck finding the ****ing place