Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[JPOBS]

Top Tier:
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Jigglypuff

lol why is falco not their?

if you say its because of gimps im going to eat you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

gimps .

 

[iamthemicrowave]

someone said marth is the only char that beats falco, i would disagree. i think marth fox is even and fox falco has a slight advantage to falco, but not enough to change the matchup from 5-5.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I typically operate under the impression that Falco isn't very good against Peach and Jigglypuff. They can float around lasers and hit him. That doesn't necessarily mean Falco loses to those characters, but I really don't think he wins the matchups. They seem to be good at handling his runaway, camping, and rushdown better than most other characters. They also still retain fairly good punishment.

 

[eagletrent242]

^This. The matchup chart says its like 5-5 vs Peach but a lot of Falco players consider it 40-60 or 45-55 in Peach's favor. As for being top tier...






......








Zhu.

 

[Blistering Speed]

^This. The matchup chart says its like 5-5 vs Peach but a lot of Falco players consider it 40-60 or 45-55 in Peach's favor.

Who are these Falco players?

I'm of the impression Falco doesn't have a disadvantaged matchup and I'm not even sure he has an even matchup anymore. MAYBE against Puff, I would have loved to see how Mango's Falco would have handled Hbox's Puff at Genesis, as someone who fully knows the matchup.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach Falco is fairly ambiguous.

Some consider it Falco favour, Peach favour, or even. Depends entirely on who you ask. Since there is a tendency to call it 55/45 from either side, we just put it as even in the single digit chart.

edit:

Who are these Falco players?

Provided he hasn't changed his opinion since unknown talked to him on AIM, Mango calls Peach Falco at 55/45 for Peach.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox vs Falco is dead even.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That one seems to depend almost entirely on who you ask.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

how so? cause he can't edgeguard peach?

Everything lol. She can rack up damage on him easily and fast if the Peach knows what she's doing. She can also turnip camp him with is the gayest thing ever. Bowser can't approach her for sh*t. If you get caught by a washing machine from her, it can lead to a continuing combo. Peach can grab from behind and Bowser's fat a$$ is really easy for her to grab lol. Once she's edgeguarding you, you're not coming back. I do know how to fight the match well and know a couple good stuff against her though. The best thing about using Bowser against Peach is she's the character who gets caught by Bowser's F-smash the most lol.

 

[KAOSTAR]

not this road again.

basically since there is sooo much teeter totter and it really depends on the players I dont see why even isnt the best option. Both have enough killing potential combo potential and 1 frame combo breakers.

Edit-fox, falco

 

[idea]

Everything lol. She can rack up damage on him easily and fast if the Peach knows what she's doing. She can also turnip camp him with is the gayest thing ever. Bowser can't approach her for sh*t. If you get caught by a washing machine from her, it can lead to a continuing combo. Peach can grab from behind and Bowser's fat a$$ is really easy for her to grab lol. Once she's edgeguarding you, you're not coming back. I do know how to fight the match well and know a couple good stuff against her though. The best thing about using Bowser against Peach is she's the character who gets caught by Bowser's F-smash the most lol.

'k. agree or disagree, everyone else?

 

[KirbyKaze]

not this road again.

basically since there is sooo much teeter totter and it really depends on the players I dont see why even isnt the best option. Both have enough killing potential combo potential and 1 frame combo breakers.

Edit-fox, falco

Well, since neither the side in that argument goes past 55/45 in any direction very often, it conveniently works out to be put as even in a single digit chart.

So yes, I agree with you.

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol Im not gonna argue with dj nintendo on the bowser peach matchup.

Sounds good 2 me

 

[JPOBS]

falco/fox is fox favor on FD

and arguable/even everywhere else.

and lol im not tryign to argue anything, tis just mah opinion, we've bin over this too much.

 

[Strong Badam]

Here's the problem, they never established what makes a jigglypuff female, that "feminine voice" could just as easily be a secondary characteristic of male jigglypuffs only and female jigglypuffs could have a totally different voice. Or more likely, they all speak like that.

or more importantly you just really want jiggs to be male b/c you like guy jiggypuffs? it's a stupid argument that just because English is a sexist language that makes Jiggs a male unless proven otherwise; it HAS been proven in the anime that the Jigglypuff that follows Ash & Friends around is female, and there's no other Jigglypuff worth putting into the game.

fox/falco is even, a more difficult match-up for fox but not necessarily in falco's favor.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Maybe the fact that She wears Ribbons, Bows and flowers in her "hair" (On her head)?

homosexual male in touch with his feminine side?

This^

Or Jigglypuffs have a different sense of fashion and only guys or both wear bows.

or more importantly you just really want jiggs to be male b/c you like guy jiggypuffs? it's a stupid argument that just because English is a sexist language that makes Jiggs a male unless proven otherwise; it HAS been proven in the anime that the Jigglypuff that follows Ash & Friends around is female, and there's no other Jigglypuff worth putting into the game.

Lol, you need to read better dude, I'm not saying that jiggs is male, I'm saying the masculine pronoun is what we should use for Jiggs, aka "he/him/etc". Odds are, jiggs is female, but odds do not define the pronoun that you're supposed to use. Until there is proof positive jigglypuff is female, he should be referred to as him.

No, it was never proven in the anime.


As for why, combination of being a grammar nazi and proving how stupid the english language is so everyone will wanna switch to some better language, like tagalog or french.

fox/falco is even, a more difficult match-up for fox but not necessarily in falco's favor.

Falco's favor, except on Final D, but just barely.

 

[Strong Badam]

jigglypuff?
yeah she's jigglypuff
& i disagree with you on fox/falco and you'll find that about the same number of people think it's falco's favor as fox's favor. it only makes sense to say that it's even.

 

[pockyD]

why can't jigglypuff just be an it

and more to the point, why are there multiple pages about it

 

[adumbrodeus]

jigglypuff?
yeah she's he's jigglypuff

Fixed... FOR GRAMMAR!

& i disagree with you on fox/falco and you'll find that about the same number of people think it's falco's favor as fox's favor. it only makes sense to say that it's even.

Argumentum ad temperantiam logical fallacy, just because two sides disagree doesn't mean the middle ground is right.


For example, if I was in favor of bombing new mexico and you were against it, would that mean that bombing half of new mexico is right?

why can't jigglypuff just be an it

and more to the point, why are there multiple pages about it

FOR GRAMMAR!

 

[Strong Badam]

Argumentum ad temperantiam logical fallacy, just because two sides disagree doesn't mean the middle ground is right.


For example, if I was in favor of bombing new mexico and you were against it, would that mean that bombing half of new mexico is right?

yeah, however, in taking statistics it's often easier and more productive (e.g. there was like 10+ pages of fox vs. falco discussion and it led no where) to simply take the arithematic mean of the data instead of attempting to convince the other side that they're wrong and you're right. I believe this is called a "compromise."

 

[unknown522]

I'm still sure that when sheik bans yoshi's, then it's bowser's worst matchup.

Or if she just camps bowser back.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox v falco is even.

Falco can camp the horizontal with lasers and fox can camp the vertical on the platforms. if either one gets a hit, it will combo for a while.

it might be "easier" for falco at lower levels, but at the level where both players know the matchup and know what they will be punished for and know how to punish the other person (ei, the highest level), then it is perfectly even.

 

[unknown522]

^This. The matchup chart says its like 5-5 vs Peach but a lot of Falco players consider it 40-60 or 45-55 in Peach's favor. As for being top tier...






......








Zhu.

mango told me on AIM that it's either even or 55-45 for peach. Falco works hard only to get d-smashed. There was more to it, but I forget.

Anyways, I agree with 55-45 or 6-4 for peach.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Argumentum ad temperantiam logical fallacy, just because two sides disagree doesn't mean the middle ground is right.

You're correct. It doesn't necessarily mean it's right. However, complaints and anger have significantly gone down since then regarding that matchup and the arguments had reached a point of ad nauseam anyway.

Since both sides seemed to feel it was too close to call 60/40 in either direction, and the chart was revamped to single digits, it made sense to compromise it. Fallacious? I suppose. But nobody really seems to mind.

edit: I personally think Falco loses 55/45 to Peach. Floating over the lasers is very gay. I don't even think it's the D-smash, I just think she's got one of the better anti-laser games.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You're correct. It doesn't necessarily mean it's right. However, complaints and anger have significantly gone down since then regarding that matchup and the arguments had reached a point of ad nauseam anyway.

Since both sides seemed to feel it was too close to call 60/40 in either direction, and the chart was revamped to single digits, it made sense to compromise it. Fallacious? I suppose. But nobody really seems to mind.

Who said it was a 60-40?


By slight I mean SLIGHT, closest equivilent to 55-45.

Which the chart doesn't quote.


That's why I said, "has the advantage".

yeah, however, in taking statistics it's often easier and more productive (e.g. there was like 10+ pages of fox vs. falco discussion and it led no where) to simply take the arithematic mean of the data instead of attempting to convince the other side that they're wrong and you're right. I believe this is called a "compromise."

As long as it's framed as a compromise.

 

[KAOSTAR]

why can't jigglypuff just be an it

and more to the point, why are there multiple pages about it

^ Because of posts like this lol

Also b*****s get mad if you call them "it"

 

[KirbyKaze]

Who said it was a 60-40?

A very small minority. Most people felt if either character won, it was by a tiny amount (55/45) and not a larger amount (60/40), which I tried to communicate when I said: both sides seemed to feel it was too close to call 60/40 in either direction.

By slight I mean SLIGHT, closest equivilent to 55-45.

I wasn't referencing your earlier post.

Which the chart doesn't quote.

Indeed.

That's why I said, "has the advantage".

I wasn't referencing your earlier post.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well, since neither the side in that argument goes past 55/45 in any direction very often, it conveniently works out to be put as even in a single digit chart.

So yes, I agree with you.

yea pretty much you said even

60-40 never came up

 

[DJ Nintendo]

I'm still sure that when sheik bans yoshi's, then it's bowser's worst matchup.

Or if she just camps bowser back.

Yoshi's Story is not that good of a stage for Bowser at high level play. Even if a Bowser player picks Yoshi's Story as a personal preference and it gets banned, it still doesn't make Sheik his worst matchup. The Sheik can camp Bowser but it still doesn't make it his worst matchup. The Bowser has to make sure to ban FD. Bowser has some good, effective things against Sheik and can even gimp Sheik in two moves from 0% if done correctly.

 

[unknown522]

Yoshi's Story is not that good of a stage for Bowser at high level play. Even if a Bowser player picks Yoshi's Story as a personal preference and it gets banned, it still doesn't make Sheik his worst matchup. The Sheik can camp Bowser but it still doesn't make it his worst matchup. The Bowser has to make sure to ban FD. Bowser has some good, effective things against Sheik and can even gimp Sheik in two moves from 0% if done correctly.

fair enough.

when does he get the 2 moves on sheik?

 

[Strong Badam]

when sheik makes a mistake

 

[phish-it]

fair enough.

when does he get the 2 moves on sheik?

It's called the forward smash>forward smash combo. You mean you've never seen it!?

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah, it's like this, but a lot faster because it's DJ Nintendo's Bowser

 

[unknown522]

It's called the forward smash>forward smash combo. You mean you've never seen it!?

lol, that's the greatest combo.

 

[x After Dawn x]

When is Falco vs Peach gonna be changed to 4-6?

 

[Fletch]

When the matchup isn't more or less even.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

when is fox vs sheik going to be changes to 4-6?

and why is sheik vs dmario 7-3?

 

[Vulcan55]

Because it is 7-3?

 

[Strong Badam]

When the matchup isn't more or less even.

you mean like now?