Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[adumbrodeus]

Does it really matter what the Japanese think? They don't even play Melee anymore.

Not really, because either their metagame is a great deal more advanced then ours or we left their metagame in the dust if this is true.


I'm inclined to believe the latter since every time we went over there we destroyed them.

They only play on FD though right? I could maybe see that then, but that's a pretty long stretch.

I've seen them doing sets with sheiks chaingrabbing each other on dreamland, so I doubt they play just FD.

 

[Dorsey]

I'm no Doc expert, but from what I can gather, he should only be able to cg Falcon at lower percents, if not at all.

yeah, I've chaingrabbed falcon with doc before but it was off sub-par DI. I was just wondering if there was any guarantee at lower %'s like you said. At work so I have no cube to see lol

 

[Strong Badam]

lol Doc can like nearly 0-death falcon w/ chaingrabs.... after a while switch to downthrows.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Doc vs Sheik is easy on Sheik's part, you just can't be close and in front of him at any time. As in you can't have your noses pressed up against each other. If you can manage that, and not run into pills all the time, you will win. Sheik capitalizes on Doc's terrible range really amazingly well. She also moves and does moves better than him. And with the exception of the CG she does better combos than him.

 

[sauc3]

Fox and Falco both have guaranteed combos on Doc at any percent. Fox with his waveshine > upsmash, Falco with his shine > anything and dair > anything.

I feel like Falco vs Doc is easier from a Falco's perspective. The lasers are so good for forcing him to make mistakes/shield. And dair is just amazing because it can't be CC'ed. >_>

lasers arent any more effective vs doc as they are vs anyone, in fact, they are evn less efective cuz of the cape.

yea, u can actually use the cape for something other than an edgeguard, who knew?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Cape doesn't stop lasers.

It's a myth.

 

[JPOBS]

its not a be all end all but

having a cape > not having one

but falco still wins pretty hard cuz he's falco

 

[KirbyKaze]

I agree it's better than nothing, but it seems like people act like it's this ultimate answer to laser when it has huge limitations. For one, it only stops lasers if you cape the initial laser.

 

[idea]

so...there seem to be pretty disparate opinions, and i know i personally have never really seen this matchup. anyone wanna give a breakdown of how this matchup generally goes? (and/or how it SHOULD go, since there's bound to be a difference there)

based on my experiences with smashboards, and this thread in particular, i think what will happen is...

group A
doc - yeah i can bair him at the ledge, and i have these pills and this cape, and the falco is 'supposed' to win so i have the mental edge...yeah, i can do this.
falco - i am falco, i can do whatever i want. i will win anyway. *loses sometimes*

group B
doc - ummmmmmmmmm
falco - why is he waiting all the way over there? i'm winning. *wins forever*

i doubt either group fully has the right idea, but i'm tempted to think group B is closer.

 

[otg]

group A
doc - yeah i can bair him at the ledge, and i have these pills and this cape, and the falco is 'supposed' to win so i have the mental edge...yeah, i can do this.
falco - i am falco, i can do whatever i want. i will win anyway. *loses sometimes*

group B
doc - ummmmmmmmmm
falco - why is he waiting all the way over there? i'm winning. *wins forever*

i doubt either group fully has the right idea, but i'm tempted to think group B is closer.

just no. It's post like this that make me think this chart is bull****.

 

[idea]

those would be the extremes, and they're both wrong...why, how do you think the matchup goes? (pretty sure you already posted about it, but so did a bunch of people and i don't remember)

oh, also, in case anyone else gets mad at me, i'd like to take a moment to say i'm not in charge of the matchup numbers or anything, i just happen to know the people who are and i like posting =P

 

[x After Dawn x]

Not really, because either their metagame is a great deal more advanced then ours or we left their metagame in the dust if this is true.


I'm inclined to believe the latter since every time we went over there we destroyed them.

They only play on FD and Dream Land. We've been miles ahead of them in Melee for a while now.

 

[otg]

those would be the extremes, and they're both wrong...why, how do you think the matchup goes? (pretty sure you already posted about it, but so did a bunch of people and i don't remember)

oh, also, in case anyone else gets mad at me, i'd like to take a moment to say i'm not in charge of the matchup numbers or anything, i just happen to know the people who are and i like posting =P

Right now I don't see the point in assigning arbitrary #'s to matchups anymore. Falco's got an advantage, they both do gay stuff to each other. If you ask me, the matchup is harder if Falco is in your face and trying to **** you up instead of laser/platform camping you. That's just me though.

 

[Europhoria]

You know Falco can do both right? And you don't just run away spamming back air and laser for mindless % until you can kill at 140.

You camp hard like a super ***** until they do something punishable because they have to approach or they will actually lose to mindless damage (camping Falco with Pills and cape is not a ****ing viable option. This goes Fox too. So Doc mains and hell, this applies to all the low and mid tiers that just camp and wait out **** and then claim the match up is even. The space animals can out camp the living hell out of you if they choose to). That's the point of the camping, to get control of the match. When they approach and are vulnerable the spacies can just start beating on you and staying on top of you until you get to a point where you can escape. In which case they can run away and be safe themselves and start this over again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz_5pWfrFyM&feature=PlayList&p=C50093135C9F038B&index=11

 

[JPOBS]

i dont get why people who dont agree with/want to contribute to the thread constantly post objections to the thread, its like "i hate this thread but..i cant...stop..reading it...." I mean, whether you agree with the thread or not isnt goign to make it disappear magically.

anyway doc falco is something like this.

Doc has a good chain grab when he manages to get a grab, but thats easier said than done cuz his grab range is balls and falco has stupid 1 frame covers for anything he whiffs. but yea, when he gets a grab, its gg.
his pills are alright i guess, but its kinda hard to use em in the time it takes to use a pill, falco out shoots you and then its kinda pointless. Speaking of lasers, cape helps a little bit. Persistant (read:good) falco's wont let few reflected lasers stop him, and on top of that, like KK said, its really only useful if you cape the first one, cuz falco can shoot faster than you can cape. But its good cuz if you can call an approaching shl->aerial from the falco (not too hard) you can cape the laser and screw up his timing a bit.
Once falco is off the stage, Bair + cape + cooked Nair make it pretty tough for falco's already suck recovery.

on the flip side, Falco has the range advantage, better projectile, and his regular dair->shine/uptilt death combos. Edgeguarding doc also isnt recoket scince, force him to b-up onto the stage and punish as you will, or if he's gonna go really low and go for sweetspots, edgehog. Doc's sweetspot is huge and catches people by surprise alot.

yea, its pretty obvious why falco wins, but its not a terrible matchup at all. 6-4 falco's favor i'd say.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Doc's chain grab has limitations. Like every chain grab on space animals. Here are some general ones that apply to pretty much anyone who can CG Falco/Fox

1) it's only good on stages without platforms (collectively, FD and Mute City)
2) he requires a knockdown that he can follow or an arbitrary grab to get it or to anti-air* Falco
3) they're not Marth where the platform follows are almost as good as the actual chain grab (huzzah u-tilt)
4) issues with finishers on non-FD levels

*this very rarely happens to a good Falco because Dair stuffs most quick anti-airs and laser --> Dair stuffs the slow ones

Doc shouldn't recover on Falco.

People greatly undervalue Falco's relatively long limbs.

 

[otg]

You know Falco can do both right? And you don't just run away spamming back air and laser for mindless % until you can kill at 140.

You camp hard like a super ***** until they do something punishable because they have to approach or they will actually lose to mindless damage (camping Falco with Pills and cape is not a ****ing viable option. This goes Fox too. So Doc mains and hell, this applies to all the low and mid tiers that just camp and wait out **** and then claim the match up is even. The space animals can out camp the living hell out of you if they choose to). That's the point of the camping, to get control of the match. When they approach and are vulnerable the spacies can just start beating on you and staying on top of you until you get to a point where you can escape. In which case they can run away and be safe themselves and start this over again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz_5pWfrFyM&feature=PlayList&p=C50093135C9F038B&index=11

You don't main or play doc? Go back to playing theory fighter than. At no point and time did I ever say the matchup was even nor did I ever say that camping pills/cape is a good way to stop his camp game. All I said was, and I stand by this, I would rather have a Falco camp me, then get all perfect tech skill/combo mode on my ***.

 

[JPOBS]

@kk:
yup, tis why I said he has a "good" chaingrab and not a great one.

but, doc doesnt really need a finisher vs Falco (or anyone really cept floaties), i agree he has slight finishing problems in terms of landing a move that kills falco of a blastzone, but pretty much anything that pushes falco off stage is good enough.

and lol doc shouldnt recover on anyone, his recovery is even worse than falco, i think the only difference is people are dumb and dont know how to play against doc.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

Regardless of anything, Dr. Mario fighting Falco is of course a tough matchup for him but its not that bad. Dr. Mario shouldn't recover on Falco? Its all about recovery mindgames. Yes, Falco has many options to edgeguard but Dr. Mario can mix up his recovery well. He can definitely recover if he knows how the Falco is going to edgeguard. I do this all the time, even with Bowser. People have to use mindgames well for being on the defensive and not just being offensive. In addition, even something like camping pills with Dr. Mario is a skill to perform well. Mindgames apply even for that. Overall, its obvious the matchup is in Falco's favor but its not like Falco fully destroys Dr. Mario either.

 

[Alphicans]

I know what you mean DJ Nintendo, but I don't think you can "use" mindgames. That can sometimes fool people into thinking that doing fancy things = mindgames, when mindgames is just another term for reading your opponent.

 

[phish-it]

You know Falco can do both right? And you don't just run away spamming back air and laser for mindless % until you can kill at 140.

You camp hard like a super ***** until they do something punishable because they have to approach or they will actually lose to mindless damage (camping Falco with Pills and cape is not a ****ing viable option. This goes Fox too. So Doc mains and hell, this applies to all the low and mid tiers that just camp and wait out **** and then claim the match up is even. The space animals can out camp the living hell out of you if they choose to). That's the point of the camping, to get control of the match. When they approach and are vulnerable the spacies can just start beating on you and staying on top of you until you get to a point where you can escape. In which case they can run away and be safe themselves and start this over again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz_5pWfrFyM&feature=PlayList&p=C50093135C9F038B&index=11

If Falco does nothing but spam lasers he doesn't accomplish anything either. The cape has limitations but it is enough to make falco approach and not stand in one spot shooting lasers.

EDIT: For those sayign Doc shouldn't be able to recover against falco, yes in a perfect world no character should be able to come home (except jigglypuff say) because theoretically every character can do something to prevent them from coming back in a perfect AR world.

 

[Cosmo!]

doc can definitely get back on the stage, he can mix it up sufficiently well and he shouldn't be getting gimped often as long as you DI good you can setup 2 pills on the way down + recovery mixups.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Does this mean we can say Falco can mix it up sufficiently well and shuldn't be getting gimped often as long as you DI good and can fake them with Illusion shortens, Firebird angles, Shine stalls and the threat of Dair coming down?

I don't understand how we can hold Falco's recovery over his head like it cripples him and incapacitates him from having a large advantage over a lot of the lower members of the cast and yet when we encounter equally limited recoveries that have notable other weaknesses, it's somehow okay to say "mindgames" and "recover intelligently" are legitimate strategies for them.

 

[JPOBS]

theres a difference between recovering as in landing on the stage only to be hit back off again, and ACTUALLY making it back to the stage to the point where you are at a neutral position again.

also, someone needs to tell me what Doc is going to do if you just hop on the edge and refresh ur invincibility until he has to B-up, and then you either edgehog him or let him go to the stage and ledgehop bair him off.
srsly tell me plz

 

[otg]

Does this mean we can say Falco can mix it up sufficiently well and shuldn't be getting gimped often as long as you DI good and can fake them with Illusion shortens, Firebird angles, Shine stalls and the threat of Dair coming down?

I thought that was already established?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I thought that was already established?

You would think that but then something like this comes up:

but, doc doesnt really need a finisher vs Falco (or anyone really cept floaties), i agree he has slight finishing problems in terms of landing a move that kills falco of a blastzone, but pretty much anything that pushes falco off stage is good enough.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Well played KK.

Even mango gets read and beat as Falco. No one's perfect.

Doc and Falco's recoveries are bad. "Mindgames" or not, you still get gimped.

 

[festizzio]

I have a hard time taking Festizzio seriously. He also says ICs are easy even though he's really bad against them. >_>

when have i ever said that

 

[Strong Badam]

Does this mean we can say Falco can mix it up sufficiently well and shuldn't be getting gimped often as long as you DI good and can fake them with Illusion shortens, Firebird angles, Shine stalls and the threat of Dair coming down?

I don't understand how we can hold Falco's recovery over his head like it cripples him and incapacitates him from having a large advantage over a lot of the lower members of the cast and yet when we encounter equally limited recoveries that have notable other weaknesses, it's somehow okay to say "mindgames" and "recover intelligently" are legitimate strategies for them.

doc's falling speed is a lot less than Falco's, so he can send some projectiles (which have weird angles btw) on his way down while falco can't, or if he can they're useless. Doc's up-b also has a lot more priority and a ridiculous sweetspot. Doc can also stall w/ his tornado, but yeah, Falco can do that too. His distance is considerably worse than Doc's because of his falling speed.

 

[JPOBS]

edgeguarding falco is actually harder than it is doc.

With doc, you chill on the edge and refresh invincibility frames until he has to B-up. note that doc will ALWAYS have to b-up because he doesnt have a horizontal recovery method.

falco on the other hand has a side-B and a adjustable (read:not 100% perdictable) B-up.

Seriously, people need to play as/against doc more if they think his recovery boils down to anything more than a few gimmicks. Doc will always have to use his B-up and as long as you realize that and wait for it, theres no reason he should live.

 

[Vulcan55]

More like 90% of the time.
Occasionally, you take a hard hit and DI way upwards to where you could just DI back on.
But yeah.

 

[phish-it]

Both characters have bad recoveries. Falco has more options ie side b and stalling with the shine, but they are more easily capitalized on if you expect them, because of the both recovery moves poor priority. Doc's up-b has great priority (invicible frames 3-5 I believe) and as trong bad mentioned a great sweetspot.

 

[Vulcan55]

Just 3.
:C

 

[otg]

note that doc will ALWAYS have to b-up because he doesnt have a horizontal recovery method.

False. Doc won't ALWAYS have to upB onto the stage. Even at high % if you DI well enough he might not even need to use his DJ and can just land back on stage (and I know someone was crying in here earlier about this argument but this really applies to EVERY CHARACTER). If doc is forced to upB onto the stage, you're in trouble but it's not like he is going to be in that situation at low % immediately offstage. Also, unless Doc's in death %'s or you're fighting Jiggs or somethign I really don't think you're going to get flatout killed from upBing on stage.

 

[KirbyKaze]

doc's falling speed is a lot less than Falco's, so he can send some projectiles (which have weird angles btw) on his way down while falco can't, or if he can they're useless.

Pills are eaten by everything and Doc commits for quite a while when he recovers with them.

Doc's up-b also has a lot more priority and a ridiculous sweetspot. Doc can also stall w/ his tornado, but yeah, Falco can do that too. His distance is considerably worse than Doc's because of his falling speed.

Doc's Up+B also has landing lag (ledgestall --> big punish go go) and negligible priority because people tend to be invincible when they edgeguard it with moves properly (ledgehop aerials go go).

It's not my goal to say Falco's recovery is better than Doc's or anything. My point was that Doc's recovery (and many other characters' recoveries) have plenty of exploitable weaknesses and are as abusable as Falco's recovery, and yet we're allowed to say "mindgames > gimping" for these characters but not Falco. It's not consistent.

Either we accept that Falco can recover sometimes in these arguments, or we say that the characters with recoveries of comparable quality can't recover either.

 

[JPOBS]

False. Doc won't ALWAYS have to upB onto the stage. Even at high % if you DI well enough he might not even need to use his DJ and can just land back on stage (and I know someone was crying in here earlier about this argument but this really applies to EVERY CHARACTER). If doc is forced to upB onto the stage, you're in trouble but it's not like he is going to be in that situation at low % immediately offstage. Also, unless Doc's in death %'s or you're fighting Jiggs or somethign I really don't think you're going to get flatout killed from upBing on stage.

Well i thought it was a forgone conclusion that we were talkign specifically about scenarios where the Character has to use character specific features to recover...

like it goes without saying that anyone could DI well and DJ/Air dodge back on, that doesn teven need to be mentioned really. when we talk about recovery we generally mean when you have to actually try.

And no, you wont get flat out killed from upbing on stage, the problem however is that just because you up-B onstage doesnt mean you've recovered successfully. you get hit back off and then its back to the drawing board.
I dont really see how continuously getting hit back off and dieing a little later is really successful at all.

 

[1048576]

It's worth mentioning that for a given move, Falco's knockback trajectory will be significantly more horizontal than Doc's even with perfect DI, just because of their falling speeds, so it's more feasable for Doc to not need to use Up-B than for Falco to not need Illusion/Up-B.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I would rather have falco's recovery any day over doc's.

Doc can upb sweetspot or sweetspot with his jump and in the WORST case he can upb onto the stage. 3 options.

Falco has a number of recovery options, between shortening the sideb to sweetspotting high or low with his upb, sweetspotting with his sideb, sideb onto the platform, or upb onto the stage. You can also mix in shine stalls to mess with the timing and avoid gimps.

not to mention falco's jump covers more distance and allows him to sweetspot with his jump in more situations.

 

[otg]

I think the only thing that gives Falco's recovery an edge over docs is the little landing lag he has after he touches the ground. Frankly on average I think Falco gets gimped more often and at lower %'s then Doc players (this is also due to there being more Falco's, people having fail safe methods to gimp falco at any %).

 

[KAOSTAR]

I know what you mean DJ Nintendo, but I don't think you can "use" mindgames. That can sometimes fool people into thinking that doing fancy things = mindgames, when mindgames is just another term for reading your opponent.

lol. In the next smash

mindgames is gonna be an item