Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[KirbyKaze]

I think Falco's ability to disappear during illusions and screw with timings, in addition to being able to edgecancel illusions, and having 0 lag almost all the time from recovery is far more useful than anything in Doc's recovery arsenal.

And Doc gets gimped really easily when people are actually trying to gimp him. Shine, Dairs, and Sheik all work really effectively on him. After a B-throw (provided he's over like 30) or comboing him offstage, if Sheik or whoever just WDs back onto the ledge with a FF, they can almost always grab the edge before he can get an Up+B off and then hit him or punish his Up+B lag with whatever they want.

 

[JPOBS]

this is also due to there being more Falco's, people having fail safe methods to gimp falco at any %).

this is the correct answer.

People dont know how to play against lesser used characters, which is why people dont realize how bad some of their weaknesses can be exploited.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I couldnt agree with you more.

I use to get a little nervous when somebody picked anyone of plumber persuasion. And G&W use to catch me offguard.

Everyone else isnt as brutal offensively and you pretty much just play to win.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Personally, I suck against anyone lower then Jiggs on the current tierlist, other then Ganondorf anyway.

 

[Strong Badam]

KirbyKaze:
no, doc can't recover, i agree. i wasn't arguing that his recovery was good, it's ****ty and is edgeguarded well when your opponent knows what they're doing (which this match-up chart assumes). just explaining why others might feel differently. people say falco's recovery gets ***** but that's mainly because of his heavy use in tournament since like 2004.

 

[x After Dawn x]

regardless, his recovery still gets ***** really hard.

 

[Strong Badam]

your post doesn't conflict with my post at all. i do not understand why you included "regardless," at the beginning of your post.

 

[KAOSTAR]

it would make some sense if he was referring to the falco part.

pretty much saying despite the reasoning ppl say falcos recovery gets *****-at the center his recovery really just gets *****.

 

[x After Dawn x]

your post doesn't conflict with my post at all. i do not understand why you included "regardless," at the beginning of your post.

it would make some sense if he was referring to the falco part.

pretty much saying despite the reasoning ppl say falcos recovery gets *****-at the center his recovery really just gets *****.

Kaostar pretty much summed it up. I put regardless because people have been mentioning that Falco's recovery is worse as he has been highly used in tournaments for many years now and people are used to the situations he's put in and can be ready for them. I just pointed out that even if he wasn't used as much in tournaments, his recovery is still really bad. Even noobs who first pick up Falco can recognize it.

 

[Strong Badam]

oh, then you could have quoted someone who had said that to avoid confusion. partially my bad, tho, so w/e.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I'm a lazy *****, sorry.

 

[Vsin]

*shameless bump*

WTH is this doing on the 2nd page?

 

[phish-it]

I guess since no one is debating that means we all agree 100% on this list. Nice!

 

[otg]

I thought it was cause people realized that arguing matchups is pointless if there is no legitimate guideline to base the #'s off of.

 

[Pi]

I thought it was cause people realized that arguing matchups is pointless if there is no legitimate guideline to base the #'s off of.

Please, you give us too much credit!

samus should be higher on the list cuz if you kno how 2 play her very good she can do very good against all of the characters on the list

i face my friends ganon very often and i always win, i think that many samus mains just do not know the match up

the same with jiggs, he uses her some times also, and my other friend marth, i don't lose 3/10 times, it's pretty even

Spoiler

jajajasarcasm

 

[TresChikon]

She doesn't have good OoS options when they're spacing their moves well. I think that's the only thing that sets her back.

 

[Stev]

I think more people should illusion/phantasm cancel their recoveries. I don't see it often and I think it could help their recoveries, not that it would make a monumental difference.

 

[TresChikon]

It's more of a mindgame, you use it above the ledge and when you expect them to try and hit you out of it. However, most of the time a sweetspotted illusion is more reliable because most hitboxes can't reach down that low.

 

[Pi]

*checks the jiggs ganon matchup*

hmmmmmmmm



(don't draw any conclusions, this was more of a bump than anything)

 

[Divinokage]

I think it's even if you play it correctly, if Jiggs can get inside Ganon which is not that super hard then he may get a garanteed rest combo with Ganon doing the incorrect DI which happens more often than not. And from what I've learned this weekend, don't roll vs Jiggs it's pretty bad.. it's way more safe to do jab out of shield so then Jiggs cant approach ever or gets punished or trying to space move into shields. Or to mix it up, waveland out of shield backwards to regain spacing. When Ganon is off stage it should be a stock but if Ganon can smash DI downwards the first fair or backair.. he should be safe to recover relatively. Though, I found out that Ganon can outspace Jiggs on stage if you do it correctly and Ganon has very good grab combos on Jiggs. Pretty much it.. I need to learn the matchup better. =P

And.. Ganon for higher! lol.

 

[4% APR]

Kage is the man

 

[x After Dawn x]

Kage for top tier!

 

[unknown522]

please, none of this ganon is top tier crap. I don't feel like dealing with this right now.

Good **** kage.

 

[x After Dawn x]

If that was directed at me...I said Kage for top tier, not Ganon. >_>

 

[unknown522]

no, no, it wasn't directed at you.

I just posted it for the general public.

Also, I saw your acct on the livestream lol.

 

[unknown522]

To those that still care: Gonna update this thing in a few days.

 

[x After Dawn x]

no, no, it wasn't directed at you.

I just posted it for the general public.

Also, I saw your acct on the livestream lol.

Yeah I heard you on the livestream as well. =) I think I might've even heard you call me out, but I wasn't really sure cause the commentary was a huge mess at some parts (cough dav3 cough).

 

[unknown522]

yeah, I saw you posting on the livestream. I tried to answer as many questions as I could, but there were too many. lol.

 

[Pi]

unkown
why haven't you taken my interview thing yet

 

[unknown522]

what's that?

 

[Pi]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=256477

I put together a list of questions that I would like to have answered by tourney goers and you were one of the people that I specifically wanted to hear from :D

It's mainly about your mental state before during and after tournaments

I would appreciate it if you (and anyone who attends tournaments regularly) would take some time and answer my questions

 

[KirbyKaze]

Unknown posting: forgot to log out

will do.

 

[Pi]

thanks thanks ^^
look forward to your responses

 

[unknown522]

no problem

 

[t3h Icy]

I've been considering starting a new Match-Up Chart and topic for Melee, but I don't want to be a jerk and negate a lot of effort and work that was put into this one. Myself and the Smash 64 community worked on this and it turned out really well.

I personally think that a >>,>,=,<,<< system would be better and would be more accurate, but not as precise (if that makes sense). I could also take the current results out of this chart and apply it to a new one so that the work of Kirbykaze, Unknown and others doesn't go to waste.

Also, while the SSB Match-Up was applied to making the new tier list after completion, I don't really intend for that for Melee since Melee has a backroom and precision is required to get a solid tier list for this game.

Would anyone like me to start this project or wait out on how this one ultimately turns out?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i like the >>, >, =, <, << system better than numbers. I also like your weighted system better than the straight addition system on this chart.


also, this chart has a lot wrong with it. For example: why is sheik vs marth better for marth than sheik vs falcon? falcon can actually combo sheik, and he can COMBO INTO A KILL MOVE. Sheik does good against falcon, but its definitely not 7-3.

 

[x After Dawn x]

it probably is actually. it's more like 65-35 but it rounds up to 7-3, whereas sheik vs marth is 60-40 and comes down to 6-4. take it up with them, though, cause I didn't make it. that's just my guess.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sheik vs marth is a lot worse than sheik vs cf. the matchup is in sheik's favor, but CF can actually do things to punish sheik and can kill her semi-efficiently and ****.

 

[Pi]

I never realized marth had more problems killing shiek than the rest of the cast

 

[Nintendude]

I've been considering starting a new Match-Up Chart and topic for Melee, but I don't want to be a jerk and negate a lot of effort and work that was put into this one. Myself and the Smash 64 community worked on this and it turned out really well.

I personally think that a >>,>,=,<,<< system would be better and would be more accurate, but not as precise (if that makes sense). I could also take the current results out of this chart and apply it to a new one so that the work of Kirbykaze, Unknown and others doesn't go to waste.

Also, while the SSB Match-Up was applied to making the new tier list after completion, I don't really intend for that for Melee since Melee has a backroom and precision is required to get a solid tier list for this game.

Would anyone like me to start this project or wait out on how this one ultimately turns out?

This one seems completely dead. You did a really great job with the SSB64 one and I'd love to see you do a Melee one.