Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Alphicans]

No idea, but I know back then peach vs y.link was known as an advantage for y.link or at least even. And if it was 7-3 back then, why did you decide to go the opposite direction instead of conservatively going 50-50?

 

[unknown522]

because peach has evolved since back then and YL hasn't / can't change due to his lack of potential.

I know that's a groundless statement, but w/e.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

it got changed when someone brought it up, iirc.

i posted that video not as evidence, but really to show people how YL should be played. Some people were saying YLs camp game was really bad and unestimating his options. I posted that video just so those people could actually see how a decent/good YL is played.

edit: and i just looked at the chart, YL vs ganon is NOT 7-3 ganon. it is an even matchup. I think a lot of his other match-ups are wrong too, but i'm not positive.

 

[Alphicans]

Peach has evolved in other match-ups, but how has she in that one? I think this shouldn't be the y.link players defending y.link, it should be the peach players defending peach.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I don't think we have the data to have a productive discussion about Young Link's match ups. Caveman's Young Link videos are all from 2005-2006. It is a stretch to use any of them as proof for anything in today's metagame. Tell you what... I'll record a bunch of Young Link matches at RoM II and Pound 4. Just tell me what you want to see, and I'll get it.

citing matches where one player A) isn't even close to as good as he is now and B) has little to no match-up experience for match-up ratio evidence is pretty weak. I'm also pretty sure that that was a friendly.

I was just about to mention both of these, but you guys saved me some writing.

IIRC the old melee match-up chart had y.link and peach at even. What has changed since then in the match-up meta game to warrant peach having a 6-4 advantage? I am willing to bet not much.

The old chart has it at 7-3.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/9/9a/Allcharactermatchupschart.PNG

 

[Sliq]

I hate fighting Young Link and Zelda and DK.

 

[D20]

No idea, but I know back then peach vs y.link was known as an advantage for y.link or at least even. And if it was 7-3 back then, why did you decide to go the opposite direction instead of conservatively going 50-50?

Because Peach players have evolved their game from a relatively slow, conservative style to a more aggressive pace. Players like Vidjo, XIF, DoH, Armada, Wife, PC, and countless others have continued to add new tricks and options to Peach's toolbox over the last three years, while the no-name Young Link players have done nothing. Young Link has remained static; Peach is dynamic. These facts bleed over into this match up, which revolves around Peach avoiding Young Link's bombs and executing any number of shield pressures and edgegaurds on him. Young Link has one option. Peach has many.

 

[unknown522]

Peach has evolved in other match-ups, but how has she in that one? I think this shouldn't be the y.link players defending y.link, it should be the peach players defending peach.

What good YL players are around to show that the matchup is even or in his favor?

we'll have to see if some YL player will come and beat vidjo / armada / pink shinobi / vwins / etc. It hasn't happened recently. YL players like Jash, Caveman, and Chu (though he doesn't main him obviously) had beaten a lot of good peach players back in the day, but they're not around atm. Chu has beaten ken's falcon, but it doesn't mean that falcon v YL is close.

Chu also used to CP peach with YL, then in more recent times, he switched over to pikachu.

 

[Alphicans]

That's fine and all, but even if the old match-up chart was somewhat inaccurate in its time, how could that match-up have such a huge swing in peach's direction? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Unknown: you can't use professionals in this kind of thing. Pro players won't use low tier characters, they'll use high ones. This means it'll be really rare to have a really good y.link come out of no where and beat a good player. That makes sense right? Now I know this makes rating the match-up hard, but if you listen to the very few good y.link players rating this match-up will be a lot easier and more accurate.

 

[D20]

That's fine and all, but even if the old match-up chart was somewhat inaccurate in its time, how could that match-up have such a huge swing in peach's direction? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The old match up chart was dead wrong on many occasions... even for the time it was made.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

D20, i'm pretty sure the game itself is the exact same. you can play faster and do more things, but when it comes down to it the game is the same. peach can't run any faster, she can't dodge any better, and she can't camp any harder. you're doing the exact same thing the pros did 3 years ago, except you know a handful more tricks. Tricks, not counters or 0-death combos; tricks.

btw, in case you didn't know, YL has 3 projectiles. all of them are pretty good. bombs cover close-mid, boomerang covers long range and above and arrows cover close and below.

YLs game revolves around cutting off your options, choking you in, and then hitting you where you go. To beat it you have to avoid his projectiles and then beat him up close. Some characters are really good at that, peach is not.

 

[unknown522]

That's fine and all, but even if the old match-up chart was somewhat inaccurate in its time, how could that match-up have such a huge swing in peach's direction? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Unknown: you can't use professionals in this kind of thing. Pro players won't use low tier characters, they'll use high ones. This means it'll be really rare to have a really good y.link come out of no where and beat a good player. That makes sense right? Now I know this makes rating the match-up hard, but if you listen to the very few good y.link players rating this match-up will be a lot easier and more accurate.

I dunno, but using mid / low level YL players vs their friend is not a way to determine matchups either. If they're mid level players, they will not have a full understanding of the matchup and may lack other things like technical consistency, or good judgement.

It's hard to find 2 high level players at roughly equal skill level though, I understand that.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Why are we talking about players when we should be talking about the characters?

So nobody good plays YL. He should be bottom tier because all the pros beat the noobs who play YL, right? No, the character is static and independent of the player.

 

[wool]

*Gets to working his YL game for pound 4 friendlies*

 

[x After Dawn x]

The old match up chart was dead wrong on many occasions... even for the time it was made.

*cough*Ness*cough*

 

[D20]

The whole chart is dependent on the characters being used by two players of a high skill level. The players who use these characters MUST be taken into consideration.

To those of you that think Young Link counters Peach - please play a high quality Peach player in a tournament, film your set, win, and then show it to me so I can formally apologize for being ignorant.

FYI - I play Young Link. I go to lots of tournaments. I really wish Young Link did counter Peach. However, I am just being realistic.

 

[KirbyKaze]

What kind of statement is this??

Young Link's camp game is one of these best due to his quickness and control over his projectiles. Peach gets out camped anyway due to the fact she can't get around every single projectile YLink has to throw at her. Peach is just not quick enough to keep up with YLink's projectiles. Her turnips get negated basically by simple ****. And it's not hard to catch. Hell they're bigger than YLink's bombs which make that a simple catch throw back.

Back your ******* statement up before you say such blasphemy.

He has to take time to pull his crap and he doesn't have infinite horizontal range on them like Fox/Falco laser. He can't capitalize on a projectile hitting a shield as effectively as Falco, and he doesn't have the same speed to camp long term like Fox.

His camping game, while okay, is a league and a half away from the characters with good camping games.

Peach has evolved in other match-ups, but how has she in that one? I think this shouldn't be the y.link players defending y.link, it should be the peach players defending peach.

She hasn't really evolved in the matchup but as a character she's improved with a more evolved pressure game, a more evolved edgeguarding game, and I'd argue that she combos somewhat more effectively. These are traits that assist her when you figure she's fighting a character that she needs to get in on and kill, and YLink's anti-pressure is balls considering he's got not shield grab and CC D-smash is defeated by Peach's existence (no lag aerials, her D-smash, grab, strong dash attack, etc).

Pro players won't use low tier characters, they'll use high ones. This means it'll be really rare to have a really good y.link come out of no where and beat a good player. That makes sense right? Now I know this makes rating the match-up hard, but if you listen to the very few good y.link players rating this match-up will be a lot easier and more accurate.

Chu Dat...?

He used to counterpick Peaches with YLink in an earlier era of Smash but then switched more to Pikachu in later years. I'm not sure if that's preference or the matchup being easier, though.

 

[eagletrent242]

The players should and shouldn't be taken into consideration for a few reasons. It's true that Peach has evolved and YL hasn't but look at why. Peach being high tier draws people rather than YL who is low. In competitive smash, who would you rather play if your goal is winning? I'm not saying I think the matchup is straight even because I think its roughly 45-65. But there has been almost no rep for YL's in 3 years. Don't bash arguments brought up because of tier charts and recent tourney standings. Hopefully TRC and a few others can rep in Pound 4. But as it stands, YL has STILL has a great camping game, regardless of how Peach evolved.

Also: Pikachu should not be low tier lol nuff said.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The players should and shouldn't be taken into consideration for a few reasons. It's true that Peach has evolved and YL hasn't but look at why. Peach being high tier draws people rather than YL who is low. In competitive smash, who would you rather play if your goal is winning?

This entire section has nothing to do with the argument.

Peach has improved in her pressure, her damage output, and her edgeguarding. Is it really such a ridiculous claim to say "Young Link hasn't kept up with Peach in the matchup and it favours her" when she's getting all these wonderful things to make her openings do more damage and gimp him faster?

But there has been almost no rep for YL's in 3 years. Don't bash arguments brought up because of tier charts and recent tourney standings. Hopefully TRC and a few others can rep in Pound 4. But as it stands, YL has STILL has a great camping game, regardless of how Peach evolved.

Young Link's camping game is mediocre because his crap takes time to pull and throw, whereas more efficient projectile campers (Fox, Falco, Sheik, hell even Doc) can just run and shoot or have good speed or ability to capitalize on projectiles hitting shields or whatever. Young Link doesn't have these same advantages. And when he does, they're to a much lesser degree.

 

[KAOSTAR]

if pikachu shouldnt be low tier, who in middle tier is he better or even with?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Pretty minor, but ganon vs yoshi is easier than fox vs yoshi (harder for the yoshi).

yoshi has some legit (and pretty cool ) combos on fox and falco that he lacks on the rest of the cast. falcon is in the same boat as ganon for this matchup.

 

[eagletrent242]

It has everything to do with the argument. PEACH has not improved. The way Peach is played has. But on a base level Peach has trouble getting passed projectile spam. Boomerang takes about the same amount of frames as Doc's pills and arrows take less (assuming you're not ******** and try to charge them which isn't necessary). Being more than 5 feet away gives plenty of time to take half a second to pull out a bomb. That's a terribly weak argument.

I'd say Pikachu deserves higher than Mario. But that's just me.

 

[KAOSTAR]

YLs camp game is not bad. but by no means is it one of the best.

When young link camps its kinda like a David and Goliath. You run around at mid to close range and try to counter your opponent with weak projectiles that require a certain tandem to be effective. You must focus way to much on pulling things out, spacing, and angles. On top of that there isnt enough hit stun for strong followups or shield pressure. Not to mention the boomerang is easily side step-able or dodge-able and bombs are reciprocal.

Little link then has slow predictable kill moves and a poor recovery. I think that if peach was smart enough she could actually take alot of shots at YL while waiting for a strong punish. Since you will be so close she could counter the time it takes to pull out a projectile with a turnip. Whilebeit a poor counter, at close range she can weakly punish anything he throws at her, or drops like a bomb.

There is no reason to compare YLs camp game to sheik fox falco or even doc because they all fire faster, are better characters to begin with, and they actually have projectiles that are effective vs ones that might be. You might think Yl has a good camp game just cuz he has alot of **** to throw. Its almost like throwing snowballs in a rock fight.

folasers-fast with no hitstun
falasers-****, nuff said and both work at full range
non prescription drugs are damaging slow and lingering and just in the way. Hard to avoid and doc can follow up from that quite well. Edit:Mario is better than pikachu

 

[rhan]

oh go **** yourself. This is why I don't bother explaining posts to idiots outside the BR. They get on my *** about getting in the BR, then when I explain **** to them, then it goes in one ear and out the other, then I want to punch them in the face because they deliberately try to piss me off.

Then maybe you should have explained yourself so I wouldn't have to say such things. Just because I'm not in the BR doesn't mean I know little or more than you.

You don't deserve to see my back up

Is this just an excuse because you have no back up?

 

[KirbyKaze]

On a base level Peach has trouble getting passed projectile spam.

Given how campy some Foxes, Sheiks, and Falcos have become to fend off Peach, I tend to think Peach as a character has gotten better at fending off projectile spam.

Boomerang takes about the same amount of frames as Doc's pills and arrows take less (assuming you're not ******** and try to charge them which isn't necessary).

Nobody cares about Young Link shooting arrows or throwing boomerangs. Those can be swat by lagless FC moves. Or moved away from. Because arrows are horrible and boomerang has a telegraphed arc and you only get to throw one at a time.

Bombs, which are the relevant projectile, are slow.

Being more than 5 feet away gives plenty of time to take half a second to pull out a bomb. That's a terribly weak argument.

Like I've said, Peaches have been forced to get better at dealing with projectile spam. Moreover, there are 2 small stages, Pokemon Stadium (although it's still good for Young Link), and FD, with no absurdly high platforms for Young Link to hide on. It is, believe it or not, difficult to remain 5 feet away from someone at all times as Young Link without those ridiculous platforms. Especially when they're doing everything in their power to keep you contained.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

YLs camp game is not bad. but by no means is it one of the best.

what? how is it not the best when you can run and jump while pulling your bombs and throw your projectiles to cover more options than any other character? falco's lasers cover the ground and thats really cool, but YL can cover almost every angle and force his opponent's movement.

When young link camps its kinda like a David and Goliath. You run around at mid to close range and try to counter your opponent with weak projectiles that require a certain tandem to be effective. You must focus way to much on pulling things out, spacing, and angles. On top of that there isnt enough hit stun for strong followups or shield pressure. Not to mention the boomerang is easily side step-able or dodge-able and bombs are reciprocal.

Wtf are you smoking? Almost all of YL combos (and Link's too) lead in with a bomb or boomerang. If you hit them with a projectile you can jump in with a nair or fair and it hits. Go try it out.

Little link then has slow predictable kill moves and a poor recovery. I think that if peach was smart enough she could actually take alot of shots at YL while waiting for a strong punish. Since you will be so close she could counter the time it takes to pull out a projectile with a turnip. Whilebeit a poor counter, at close range she can weakly punish anything he throws at her, or drops like a bomb.

His recovery is really good, actually. Between his (small) hookshot and upb (very hard to punish) peach really doesn't have anything to stop him from sweetspotting the edge every time.

His dair and uair combo out of his grab, and his dsmash is very fast and very strong. If he finds no openings, he throws his projectiles and forces peach's movement then hits her with a uair (or thats his plan anyways). Please at least know what you're talking about before you say stupid things.

The rest of this paragraph after the first sentence doesn't make any sense. Why would a YL be pulling a projectile at close range? Also what are these magical counters peach has at close range to punish his projectiles and bombs? I'd really like to hear this.

There is no reason to compare YLs camp game to sheik fox falco or even doc because they all fire faster, are better characters to begin with, and they actually have projectiles that are effective vs ones that might be. You might think Yl has a good camp game just cuz he has alot of **** to throw. Its almost like throwing snowballs in a rock fight.

YLs camp game is most similar to Peach's. Peach's game (vs many characters) revolves around grabbing a turnip and using that to approach behind (either they dodge, they get hit, they grab, or they shield; peach players know what to do in each situation). YL does the same thing. He doesn't necessarily try to hit you with any or all of them, he only uses them to force a response out of you. He wants a favorable situation, he wants to force you to jump or force you to shield or force you to come at him.

folasers-fast with no hitstun
falasers-****, nuff said and both work at full range
non prescription drugs are damaging slow and lingering and just in the way. Hard to avoid and doc can follow up from that quite well. Edit:Mario is better than pikachu

I don't even know what this means lol

 

[Alphicans]

While I agree most of you are underestimating Y.links camping game (especially on platforms), it's definitely not the best overall, but I'd say it's the best for handling peach, and probably jiggs.

 

[wool]

Also: Pikachu should not be low tier lol nuff said.

Pikachu is perfect where he is.
We already went over that too.
You really shouldn't have said this because now I don't trust your judgment at all.

 

[unknown522]

Then maybe you should have explained yourself so I wouldn't have to say such things. Just because I'm not in the BR doesn't mean I know little or more than you.

You wish.

Is this just an excuse because you have no back up?

good for you. You go ahead and think that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

While I agree most of you are underestimating Y.links camping game (especially on platforms), it's definitely not the best overall, but I'd say it's the best for handling peach, and probably jiggs.

If bombs weren't slow and Peach couldn't shield and then move out of shield then I would agree with you.

 

[Brookman]

peach can't shield if she's floating. ;d

edit: in all seriousness, if this ideal player you always imagine to support your arguments is able to block and dodge every bomb thrown from the equally less than ideal opponent you always imagine to support your arguments then I'd be obliged to agree with you.

it's always 'x character can do this vs y character when they do this' with you. All that matters in reality is what X player can do against Y player and how Y player adapts to X player.

If Y players - character is being played at its limit and there is nothing he can do in response to x players - character in whatever possible situation you want to imagine then Y player needs a new character. However, in your scenarios, I think its more along the lines of X player always being of greater skill than Y player.

 

[wool]

Wait wait can't Puff's bair knock bombs over (AKA she won't get hit). And can't her aerials also clank with boomerangs? If so wouldn't that help somehow (i don't know how but surely it will be easier to avoid the bombs+boomerangs).

 

[Alphicans]

peach can't shield if she's floating. ;d

edit: in all seriousness, if this ideal player you always imagine to support your arguments is able to block and dodge every bomb thrown from the equally less than ideal opponent you always imagine to support your arguments then I'd be obliged to agree with you.

This. Don't downplay bombs, they are really good and people who play against y.link will surely agree.

Wool, yeah jiggs does stop boomerang with aerials, but that doesn't mean it's no longer effective, it's just more situational. Bombs are still your best friend in that match-up. And then any grab at highish percent is a kill (lol that shouldn't happen often).

 

[KAOSTAR]

what? how is it not the best when you can run and jump while pulling your bombs and throw your projectiles to cover more options than any other character? falco's lasers cover the ground and thats really cool, but YL can cover almost every angle and force his opponent's movement.

This is a little off topic since we were talking about YL or link vs peach, but are you trying to tell me that you would expect YL to out camp falco or fox? Cuz I can see them using the full length of the stage and camping the **** out of you. Somethin tells me YL would have a hard time.

I did say that he camp game was aight, and thats because he can force ppl to move. But that doesnt change the fact that he doesnt throw bombs that far and arrows have to be charged at a distance and the boomerang is slow but follows a predictable path. Provides the most trouble on the way back. This is all done at mid to close ranges for maximum effectiveness.

Wtf are you smoking? Almost all of YL combos (and Link's too) lead in with a bomb or boomerang. If you hit them with a projectile you can jump in with a nair or fair and it hits. Go try it out.

Like you said, links followups come from throwing ****. To followup you need to get close, and thats best done if you throw the items at mid to close range.

When I said stong follow ups I was mainly referring to YLs lack of killing power. I was commenting on the actual strength of the attacks and I guess maybe that wasnt clear.

His recovery is really good, actually. Between his (small) hookshot and upb (very hard to punish) peach really doesn't have anything to stop him from sweetspotting the edge every time.

If I were a peach player, I would stop that little ******* from grabbing the ledge. Overall distance is not that great. Horizontally he doesnt cover as much ground as many other characters and vertically still there are better. The hookshot helps but note that it is short.

A very effective edgeguard is the turnip drop to grab ledge. Bladewise does it all the time against marths . You can hit link away from the stage and cover the ledge. Also if he is coming from farther and higher peach can float out or throw turnips for effectice edgeguards.

His dair and uair combo out of his grab, and his dsmash is very fast and very strong. If he finds no openings, he throws his projectiles and forces peach's movement then hits her with a uair (or thats his plan anyways). Please at least know what you're talking about before you say stupid things.

I know what Im talking about, or else I wouldnt have spoken. Calling somebodies ideas or opininos stupid is just bad mannered. It was unwarranted and could have been replaced with a simple adult like, I disagree.

Yes Yl can uair or dair out of grab. and his downsmash is good on a grounded foe. What if the peach is lets say..... not a ******* and doesnt move the way he wants. Then what, throw more **** right? Sounds like a predictable approach. You can mix it up and be effective but I dont think that its enough to end peach in current meta. Yl is low tier for a reason. Its very possible for an experience player to counter most of his approaches because they are not very stong. When falco comes at you be prepared to fight. when YL comes at you tell him to come back in 7 years and try again.

YLs camp game is most similar to Peach's. Peach's game (vs many characters) revolves around grabbing a turnip and using that to approach behind (either they dodge, they get hit, they grab, or they shield; peach players know what to do in each situation). YL does the same thing. He doesn't necessarily try to hit you with any or all of them, he only uses them to force a response out of you. He wants a favorable situation, he wants to force you to jump or force you to shield or force you to come at him.l

I main m2. Thats one of his basic approaches. I understand the concept.

The diff between peach and YL tho is that peach has an even more **** downsmash. Good for killing, edgeguarding, and racking up massive damage all while being just as fast with a bigger hitbox. While her projectile game is not as stong, her shield pressure is much better and so are her edgeguards. PEach has a much safer recovery, not the best, but a bailout counter if things get too hectic(only an option not end all be all), can attack with float cancels(faster than L)

Not to mention Yl isnt the fastest in the world, while not being as slow as link he still isnt a fox. Alof of his attacks can leave him open for a fast counter. Sidestep downsmash lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i agree, on the whole YL isnt a good character, just i saw a lot of things in your post that weren't fully true or (in some places) completely wrong.

sorry for flat out insulting you.

 

[otg]

Are people actually still posting in this thread? Last time I checked this was the Super Smash Brothers Melee boards, not Super Smash Brothes Theory Figher

 

[Strong Badam]

that's my line *****

 

[x After Dawn x]

super theory bros melee

 

[Alphicans]

I am hardly theorizing. I am taking what I have seen in the past and directly applied it to the present. It's the people saying that since peach's metagame has changed so much that theoretically her match-up with y.link should be flipped right on its ***.

 

[otg]

I wasn't refering to just you Alphicans. It's this whole thread (particularly the canadians).