Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[KAOSTAR]

Are people actually still posting in this thread? Last time I checked this was the Super Smash Brothers Melee boards, not Super Smash Brothes Theory Figher

I love smash theory.

 

[idea]

theory is important because mango can't clone himself

etc. etc.

 

[unknown522]

lol theory.

Or good players.

 

[otg]

lol theory.

Or good players.

I laugh at this because many of the good EC players I've talked with think this matchup chart is full of crap.

 

[john!]

I laugh at this because many of the good EC players I've talked with think this matchup chart is full of crap.

What would be really neato is if they could help contribute to this chart instead of being contemptuous snobs...

 

[HT F8]

I hate when people talk about Melee on the Melee board.

 

[-ACE-]

What would be really neato is if they could help contribute to this chart instead of being contemptuous snobs...

Or they might see the idea of attempting to accurately describe the outcome/difficulty of matchups in numerical form as pointless and near impossible.

 

[Strong Badam]

I laugh at this because many of the good EC players I've talked with think this matchup chart is full of crap.

this is funny because EC players are known to have really skewed opinions on match-ups.
sup jigglypuff

 

[TheManaLord]

jiggs is fifth best in game easily how is that skewed? she has awesome matchups and is so easy to play

 

[TLMSheikant]

jiggs is second/third best in te game easily how is that skewed? she has awesome matchups and is so easy to play

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Fixed for accuracy.

No. Not at least in this metagame.

 

[eagletrent242]

Jiggs's metagame is still rising with Mango and Hungry playing her. You might want to rethink that.

 

[Strong Badam]

her metagame isn't rising
hbox & mango are rising

stop being stupid. chu dat/m2k/ken/etc. completely reinvented their characters, mango kinda reinvented puff back at pound 3 but that's about it, everything else has been just optimization of King's/Mango's playstyles. puff hasn't gotten better, mango/hbox have and people haven't adapted yet.

 

[eagletrent242]

I probably should have worded it differently. All I meant was that they helped to change the way she was used like people have changed the way Peach and other characters are played. JIGGS hasn't actually gotten any better lol

 

[Strong Badam]

the character hasn't changed, but mango & hbox haven't revolutionized her metagame or anything recently. at least not since pound 3. the players are getting better, not the char's metagame.

 

[TheManaLord]

you don't need an improving metagame if its still ****ing dominating because its broken

 

[idea]

Or they might see the idea of attempting to accurately describe the outcome/difficulty of matchups in numerical form as pointless and near impossible.

seems to have a point to me. characters can have "power" values independent of players. clearly pichu is worse than fox. and...i don't think this chart is bad enough that it shouldn't even have been attempted, especially since it still changes all the time with new information and whatnot.

so i guess it's just a degree thing. seems like it's close enough to have been worth doing in the first place.

her metagame isn't rising
hbox & mango are rising

stop being stupid. chu dat/m2k/ken/etc. completely reinvented their characters, mango kinda reinvented puff back at pound 3 but that's about it, everything else has been just optimization of King's/Mango's playstyles. puff hasn't gotten better, mango/hbox have and people haven't adapted yet.

yeah, i wouldn't even go that far. nothing mango did at pound 3 surprised me. i mean, there wasn't any "wow, i've never seen that before"...mostly just "wow, he keeps beating everyone"

those two are just doing something really right. possibly, also, no one is willing to learn the matchup cause it's so irritating =P

 

[x After Dawn x]

Jiggs's metagame is still rising with Mango and Hungry playing her. You might want to rethink that.

you might wanna think about your posts before pressing submit.

 

[adumbrodeus]

those two are just doing something really right. possibly, also, no one is willing to learn play the matchup cause it's so irritating =P

Fixed


That's what it is, don't get me wrong, jiggs is a great character and probably deserves toptier (bottom of top IMO).


The thing is, people don't play against him properly, because play against him properly is quite frankly slow and boring when done properly.


The thing is, when jiggs players were worse, people could get away with playing aggressively against jiggs, but that doesn't work anymore, so everyone loses and thinks jiggs is the best character in the metagame.


Granted, the metagame has changed to help her, improved DI means getting out of combos that are still inescapable for everyone else, edgeguarding means reletively little to her, etc.



I'm willing to SHDL for 8 minutes against her, means nothing to me, the question is, are you guys?

 

[x After Dawn x]

Him? HIM?

Jigglypuff is female, sir. She's also a strong advocate of feminism and women's rights.

 

[idea]

Jigglypuff is my favourite exploding narcoleptic bunny.

 

[john!]

I'm willing to SHDL for 8 minutes against her, means nothing to me, the question is, are you guys?

You cruel, heartless...!

There seems to be some confusion about what this chart represents. If I'm wrong here please explain. This is not the final judgment of these characters. We're not writing anything in stone. What this chart is supposed to be is a snapshot of the current metagame. That's a word that gets thrown around a lot and has different meanings for different people. What we can agree on is that the metagame is dynamic and defined by humans, NOT the game itself. Of course it's the "same Jigglypuff" that we played back in 2001. That's obvious. That's also completely irrelevant. What this chart represents is how Jigglypuff can be used by people. You don't have to "reinvent" a character to raise them to new heights. The fact that not one, but two players are almost unbeatable with one certain character previously not in the top 5 should be a serious shocker, but some of you are doing everything you can to worship Mango and Hbox and deny that the character they use is capable of amazing things.

There has been a lot of Super Theory Brothers being played in this thread. Our own experiences as players mold our opinions, and it comes as a surprise when other players thousands of miles away are in stark disagreement. It goes without saying that Melee is an incredibly deep game, far too deep to try and raise hypotheticals about what could happen if two characters played on one of many stages under ideal conditions. The only thing we can all agree on, the only solid evidence we have, and the only thing we can rely on if this chart is ever going to get done, is how this metagame is being currently played out at the highest level. Sorry if I'm preaching to the choir here, but if you ignore Jigglypuff's amazingness (as displayed by Mango and Hungrybox) then you are blind.

Top Tier:
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Jigglypuff

 

[KAOSTAR]

you might wanna think about your posts before pressing submit.

why are you always "that" guy?

Its like ur trying to be the dumb post police because you have nothing to contribute.

If thats what he really believed then instead of sayin hea an idiot why dont you tell him why you disagree. ITs more productive to boost yourself up vs bringing other ppl down.

0 jock points for you my friend. and yes I realize that im kinda doing the same thing as you right now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@johnny-Why did you leave falco out. Do you not think hes good enough or did you just forget?

I think falco is a better character than sheik. and jiggs overal. If im not obligated to keep the top tier category to 4 then Id place all of them in top tier

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

John you're a brilliant man, and I hope to see you at tournaments again.

 

[x After Dawn x]

why are you always "that" guy?

Its like ur trying to be the dumb post police because you have nothing to contribute.

If thats what he really believed then instead of sayin hea an idiot why dont you tell him why you disagree. ITs more productive to boost yourself up vs bringing other ppl down.

0 jock points for you my friend. and yes I realize that im kinda doing the same thing as you right now.

Strong Bad already summed up what I was going to say.

 

[worldjem7]

What would be really neato is if they could help contribute to this chart instead of being contemptuous snobs...

There seems to be some confusion about what this chart represents. If I'm wrong here please explain. This is not the final judgment of these characters. We're not writing anything in stone. What this chart is supposed to be is a snapshot of the current metagame. That's a word that gets thrown around a lot and has different meanings for different people. What we can agree on is that the metagame is dynamic and defined by humans, NOT the game itself. Of course it's the "same Jigglypuff" that we played back in 2001. That's obvious. That's also completely irrelevant. What this chart represents is how Jigglypuff can be used by people. You don't have to "reinvent" a character to raise them to new heights. The fact that not one, but two players are almost unbeatable with one certain character previously not in the top 5 should be a serious shocker, but some of you are doing everything you can to worship Mango and Hbox and deny that the character they use is capable of amazing things.

There has been a lot of Super Theory Brothers being played in this thread. Our own experiences as players mold our opinions, and it comes as a surprise when other players thousands of miles away are in stark disagreement. It goes without saying that Melee is an incredibly deep game, far too deep to try and raise hypotheticals about what could happen if two characters played on one of many stages under ideal conditions. The only thing we can all agree on, the only solid evidence we have, and the only thing we can rely on if this chart is ever going to get done, is how this metagame is being currently played out at the highest level. Sorry if I'm preaching to the choir here, but if you ignore Jigglypuff's amazingness (as displayed by Mango and Hungrybox) then you are blind.

You're hitting the nail right on the head, john9blue. I don't know why people don't already know this. It's on the first post.

This is not supposed to be a "set-in-stone" chart.

I'd like to make this as accurate as possible to the current metagame.

 

[idea]

Top Tier:
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Jigglypuff

falco is better than jigglypuff and is top tier. but otherwise, yeah.

i mean, the only real downside i can think of for falco is that he gets edgeguarded really well...but then, so do the other three, just less so. and falco beats everyone onstage. jiggs dies early and is slightly worse in a few other things to make up for her incredible recovery.

 

[Lovage]

LOVAGES LOVABLE TIER LIST

top:
fox
falco
sheik

high:
marth
jigglypuff
peach

middle:
c. falcon
ice climbers
samus
ganon

low:
doc
pikachu
DK

bottom:
mario
link

 

[adumbrodeus]

What's the justification for moving Marth down?

Sure, M2K's marth isn't dominating the universe anymore (thank Mango for that) but his core attributes are still amazing and he's still got the best edguarding in the game, and his match-ups are still amazing especially in crucial areas. Sure, he does poorly against Sheik, and he has issues with Falcon, but he's the only character that actually beats fox (by a very small margin but still), and he wins against every other tournament viable character by greater or lesser margins.

He's still second on the tierlist, behind fox.

Him? HIM?

Jigglypuff is female, sir. She's also a strong advocate of feminism and women's rights.

Lol, jigglypuffs can either be male or female and it's never been shown what distinguishes a male jigglypuff from a female one.


Therefore the gender is indeterminate, and because English is a sexist language, anything with indeterminate gender gets the masculine pronoun.


So even though odds are that jiggs is in fact female, until it's proven, masculine pronoun.


Isn't English amazing?

 

[Strong Badam]

marth's on-stage game and recovery leave much to be desired in comparison to other characters.
it's obvious that the jigglypuff in-game is the same from the pokemon cartoon, whose gender has been proven many a time. her japanese & english voices are also very obviously feminine.

 

[adumbrodeus]

marth's on-stage game and recovery leave much to be desired in comparison to other characters.

How so? He's got an amzing spacing game, and probably the best concrete spacing control of any character. Fox is better then him at this, his issues here are a lack of ability to extend that range quickly (aka speed) and a lack of control outside that range.


Recovery is an issue.

it's obvious that the jigglypuff in-game is the same from the pokemon cartoon, whose gender has been proven many a time. her japanese & english voices are also very obviously feminine.

Here's the problem, they never established what makes a jigglypuff female, that "feminine voice" could just as easily be a secondary characteristic of male jigglypuffs only and female jigglypuffs could have a totally different voice. Or more likely, they all speak like that.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Lol, jigglypuffs can either be male or female and it's never been shown what distinguishes a male jigglypuff from a female one.


Therefore the gender is indeterminate, and because English is a sexist language, anything with indeterminate gender gets the masculine pronoun.


So even though odds are that jiggs is in fact female, until it's proven, masculine pronoun.


Isn't English amazing?

marth's on-stage game and recovery leave much to be desired in comparison to other characters.
it's obvious that the jigglypuff in-game is the same from the pokemon cartoon, whose gender has been proven many a time. her japanese & english voices are also very obviously feminine.

this ^

it's not just any jigglypuff

 

[otg]

Im pretty sure once pokemon gold/silver rolled around and genders were established due to the breeding system, Jigglypuffs were only female iirc, with others like Chansey, Jynx, Clefairy etc.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Im pretty sure once pokemon gold/silver rolled around and genders were established due to the breeding system, Jigglypuffs were only female iirc, with others like Chansey, Jynx, Clefairy etc.

Jigglypuff is not part of the group of Pokemon that are female-only, however it is worth noting that only 25 % of them are male and 75 % of them are female.

Same goes for Clefairy; they can be male, but there is only a 25 % chance of them being male.

Back on topic, though.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Jigglypuff is not part of the group of Pokemon that are female-only, however it is worth noting that only 25 % of them are male and 75 % of them are female.

Same goes for Clefairy; they can be male, but there is only a 25 % chance of them being male.

Back on topic, though.

So statistically speaking its more likely for jiggz to be female. And I think we all want it that way.

Does it say in trophies, instruction book, etc for sure?

 

[DJ Nintendo]

Bowser's worst matchup is Peach, not Sheik.

 

[adumbrodeus]

this ^

it's not just any jigglypuff

Responded to in the post right above yours.


The pokemon jigglypuff is just as affected by the gender ambiguity as any other jiggs, we don't know if that jiggs is male or female either.

Jigglypuff is not part of the group of Pokemon that are female-only, however it is worth noting that only 25 % of them are male and 75 % of them are female.

Same goes for Clefairy; they can be male, but there is only a 25 % chance of them being male.

Back on topic, though.

Not really worth noting, as far as English is concerned, could be 99% chance of female, still male pronoun till confirmed.


Just like in french where one guy in a group of any number of women means masculine plural.

Isn't English amazing?

 

[Vulcan55]

Maybe the fact that She wears Ribbons, Bows and flowers in her "hair" (On her head)?

 

[KAOSTAR]

homosexual male in touch with his feminine side?

 

[idea]

Bowser's worst matchup is Peach, not Sheik.

how so? cause he can't edgeguard peach?