Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[xbombr]

I disagree. Fox is one of Samus's easier high tier match ups. If she's slight disadvantage Falcon, then she's definitely even with Fox.

Since Fox's SHDL doesn't shut down missile camping at all since it has 0 stun, Fox can't completely outcamp Samus. Most Foxes seem to approach. SHDL has less control than SHL and is a very inferior choice since Samus can easily outcamp you if you have less control over your movement. You can punish attacked and shined missiles. Plus you're not firing very many lasers if you're spending your time attacking missiles. This is why Fox seems to prefer approaching. Or at least that's my experience. You can punish the hell out of approaches too. Plus those 2 lasers deal about half the damage of a missile or the attack I'll punish you with for attacking a missile.

I'm not scared of BAir since it's not viable as an approach and Samus shouldn't approach Fox enough for him to use it that much defensively anyway. Samus can limit Fox's recovery options to stuff she can edgegaurd more easily by shooting him out of his FireFox as I've explained before. Recovery options don't matter if you can cover almost all of them easily with proper set up, the rest just falls to prediction.

As far as stages go, there isn't too much to pick from anymore. Most of Samus's bad stages are gone and you have a ban there + DSR. He still has to win the first match on a neutral that isn't gay towards either player to take the set if it comes down to stages. Basically even if he has CP advantage it only makes helps him if he wins the first match.

I'm inclined to agree with Lovage that it's such a slight disadvantage that it wouldn't show up on this chart. There's no way Fox's MU is as bad for Samus as Falcon's is for her.

And I'm still trying to figure out why someone thought that Mario > Samus.

 

[Alphicans]

I'd say that on FD, dreamland and PS Fox > Samus. On the other neutrals it's probably Fox = Samus. However, with PS as a CP and with stage striking in effect, it's going to be Fox = Samus. Fox's grab game is really limited, and the overall strategy turns into a camp + small combo game for fox, and samus just camps and waits to punish a botched approach. Fox > Samus could be alright, but I think with the stages avaliable it could turn into an even match-up.

 

[xbombr]

I dunno about DL. There's more room to camp in, but Samus can live for a long *** time there. Samus does well on stages with high ceilings, long sides, and a place to grapple.

If you strike FD and Dreamland. Ban a CP. He'll probably strike FoD and Battlefield. Your first game is on YS probably. He might strike something other than Battlefield if he's comfortable there since we can't grapple it very well. I'd rather strike YS than DL out of personal preference, but your first game is going to be on one of those three stages most of the time. You won't have to worry about one of the CP's. If he takes you to one of the others, he can't go there again. It really comes down to how well you play on neutrals since the first game is on an even stage and the third game is on an even stage (the 5th will be too if you're in finals).

It's not unlikely to get a neutral even if you do win though since not everyone is comfortable with CP stages.

 

[thefiction]

can someone explain to me why peach=samus?

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

Samus definitely has a disadvantage though. I'd say a 55-45 Fox, but something about Samus having an even toptier matchup really bugs me because they're so difficult to play.

Peach v. Samus in a nutshell is who can space better while controlling the field with projectiles. In the end it comes out even (although I would argue that Peach has an advantage on most stages).

 

[thefiction]

peach and samus both play the same way for the most part but peach does it better. samus struggles with turnips and peach plows her way through missiles with nair/bair. peach can uair combo and samus cant combo at all. peach ***** samus' oos game with spaced fc fairs-grabs and peach ***** samus with her oos game. peach can cc dsmash samus and samus can be hurt a lottt if she tries the same thing. i could keep going but i think thats enough. i think it should be peach>samus

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

the thing about the Samus v. Peach matchup is that Samus has a lot more mobility especially with wavelanding and platform stages.

Peach simply does not have the same maneuvering ability that Samus has.

While spaced FC aerials ****, a good Samus definitely isn't going to allow to happen too often.

I'm not sure if you can up-B oos vs. FC fair to grab.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I disagree. Fox is one of Samus's easier high tier match ups. If she's slight disadvantage Falcon, then she's definitely even with Fox.

Except fox is worse for samus than falcon

Since Fox's SHDL doesn't shut down missile camping at all since it has 0 stun, Fox can't completely outcamp Samus.

Except the missiles will never hit fox and if samus leaves the ground to avoid lasers she will get raaaaaaaaaped

Most Foxes seem to approach.

seem to? do you even play the matchup?

SHDL has less control than SHL and is a very inferior choice since Samus can easily outcamp you if you have less control over your movement.

False false false

You can punish attacked and shined missiles.

No, she can only punish shined missiles, and you have to full commit to covering it while putting yourself in the air. If fox doesn't shine the missile you get *****.

Well i guess she could punish you for attacking a missile if you do something really stupid like fsmash the missile.

Plus you're not firing very many lasers if you're spending your time attacking missiles.

so? samus shooting missiles all day vs fox not giving a **** all day = nothing changes = losing player has to appraoch. Assuming fox fired one laser at the start of the game, he is winning.

This is why Fox seems to prefer approaching.

define approaching? fox can camp from closer than samus can. fox can stand about 1 WD away and laser, and samus has to have fox on the other side of the stage in order to missile cancel or you'll be punished for your jump before the missile even comes out.



there was a lot more to your post, but i don't even care enough to go thru it and correct everything. tl;dr you're wrong.

 

[-ACE-]

Sveet is right about his analysis of Fox vs Samus.

Tbh, Fox has no bad matchups.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

the spam/camp game is definitely not one that Samus can win no matter how you look at it.

Most other chars have decent matchups with Fox simply because their punish game is enough to balance the scales (Falcon 0-deaths, Falco 0-60-****, Sheik gimps, Marth 0-deaths, Peach's chaingrab/combos). Samus simply doesn't have this kind of punishing ability. Out of an upthrow, at best she might get a weak nair to strong nair or weak nair, fair, strong nair. This is nothing compared the insane risk of putting out one of Samus slowass grabs when you have Sheik or Marth 0 to edgeguard out of grabs. Other than her grab, her combos start with dtilt or an uptilt if you get a good read on your opponent. Even then, you'd be very lucky to get maybe 30% off a dtilt.

Her only redeeming quality in this matchup is her ability to escape shield pressure and her edgeguarding. This is not even close to making it even.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Do you even have experience with the match up at all?

Same grab range? :embarrass

1) just talking about the characters
2) grab range was sarcastic (cuz marth has an absurd grab)

 

[The Good Doctor]

1) just talking about the characters
2) grab range was sarcastic (cuz marth has an absurd grab)

Sometimes it seems Marth can grab you from any where.....

But anyway, Sveet I love you!

 

[xbombr]

edit: forget it

 

[Magus420]

Sometimes it seems Marth can grab you from any where.....

also...

 

[xbombr]

edit: nevermind

 

[The Good Doctor]

Wrong

And Fox can't do gay things to Samus? Fox is faster than Samus and can almost spam from any where and run away on the likes of Dreamland, Cruise, and Stadium. While not taking as much skill as Samus powershielding every last laser.

I think you need a lesson in Foxonomics....

Fox is fast
Fox is gay
Fox is powerful
Fox is campy
Fox is cheap

 

[xbombr]

And Fox can't do gay things to Samus? Fox is faster than Samus and can almost spam from any where and run away on the likes of Dreamland, Cruise, and Stadium. While not taking as much skill as Samus powershielding every last laser.

I think you need a lesson in Foxonomics....

Fox is fast
Fox is gay
Fox is powerful
Fox is campy
Fox is cheap

w/e at this point I don't care. People theory smash too much. I'll forget trying to contribute to this chart since people are stuck to their top tiers never lose ideals.

 

[ETWIST51294]

All Fox has to do against Samus is to lazor until out of cc percents then nair and dair ****.

You can cc everything Falcon has except for nair because it's pretty safe on cc.

but both mu aren't even that bad.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon's Dair and Knee are so unsafe on CC

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

i take back the joking thing apparently marth can pull off a samus grab O.o. well ok but thats at least an adult link grab
/<3 magus

 

[xbombr]

Falcon's Dair and Knee are so unsafe on CC

QFT

Even then all he has to do is grab you out of his manly, unstoppable dashdance. >_>

 

[Fletch]

also...

[/color]

Does this have something to do with the opponent being Boozer? I've never seen insane Jiggs grabs before.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

both of those insane grabs abused the opponent's animation and ~frame perfect timing.

with the jigglypuff one, think about bowser's bair landing animation for a sec. you see 1 frame of the rest of the landing animation where he rolls backwards. it was that animation that did it.

in marth's dtilt animation he sticks his hand forward before he moves his sword (look at the gif, marth's left hand/non-sword hand gets thrown forward) which put him inside the other marth's grab box (which is already really big)

10/10 really cool gifs :D

 

[xDD-Master]

Me and Yika had a small discuss about the colors and we agreed that this would look nicer:

Maybe you could change them ?

Btw. hi Melee Board xD

 

[Yikarur]

Me and Yika had a small discuss about the colors and we agreed that this would look nicer:

Maybe you could change them ?

Btw. hi Melee Board xD

this

Green = Neutral is ******** D:
Green = positiv, Yellow = Neutral Red = negativ.
Or what colors have your traffic light?

xP

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I like warm and cold colors better. There is more diversity in the colors overall, which allows you to glance at the chart and see very quickly each matchup without having to try to figure out which shade of green means what.

tl;dr wir haben schon eine gute farbkarte.

 

[t3h Icy]

We had a lot of discussion about what the chart looks like, but couldn't come to a consensus, so I just left it the way it is for now.

I kind of wanted to bring it up again, but I wanted to get some of the match-ups done first. I think an altered version of Kyu Puff's would look best. Though I do like mine, it doesn't work nicely for colourblind smashers.

Here's Kyu Puff's.

Magus also made a few charts using lighter versions of the colours I used and added a Pinkish colour.

 

[TheManaLord]

I can't distinguish any of it regardless. Colors are for stupid little ****ing kids.

Use numbers like any other adult community.

EDIT: Kyu's is the best.

 

[Let It Riot]

I can't distinguish any of it regardless. Colors are for stupid little ****ing kids.

Use numbers like any other adult community.

EDIT: Kyu's is the best.

The problem with numbers is that they are a unitless number. People don't agree upon whether it means matches out of 10, but generally if the opponents are equally skilled the one with the advantage will always win. In the end people like to to just say people understand the numbers. But you are just giving them a certain numerical value of "advantage" which really doesn't mean anything at all.

 

[x After Dawn x]

No, he means make it representative, like a legend. Where 0 = even, 1 = small advantage, -1 = small disadvantage, etc. You can figure out the rest.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

he means

There's never "meaning" in manalord's posts, don't put words in his mouth

 

[Shiri]

Finally, someone who understands.

 

[unknown522]

TML is my son.

 

[TheManaLord]

Sveet is the biggest troll on the forum. edit: correction, rubyiris is really bad also

And Shiri I **** on you in tournament so don't even. Come to Crotchfest and I'll do it again and again.


Numbers, colors, symbols, letters whatever they all mean the same thing.

<3 unknown

 

[john!]

Sveet is the biggest troll on the forum.

He's actually average height.

 

[holypho]

There's never "meaning" in manalord's posts, don't put words in his mouth

that was very mean, but also very funny

 

[x After Dawn x]

He's actually average height.

Really? I heard sveet was pretty short. He plays marth to help make up for his lack of height and manliness.

 

[john!]

He plays marth to help make up for his lack of height and manliness.

That is entirely the wrong choice of character.

Although I suppose the occasional Marth player is secure enough in their masculinity to prance around in a tiara and shout "everyone look at me". I have yet to meet one, though.

 

[N64]

Lets not get into what our characters say about how we desire ourselves to be. (Although having control of electricity would be pretty ****in sweet)

I like the chart how it is now presentation-wise. Kyupuff's looks fine, but it seems like a techy red vs blue battlefield map or something. Nice friendly colors seem to go with the whole light colorfulness of smash in game. Ionno, just seems more fitting to me.

Also pika's matchups as they are now seem mostly fine to me. I would argue:
Pika >> Zelda to Pika > Zelda
Pika >> Mewtwo to Pika > Mewtwo

and i feel odd about Fox and Falco being on different difficulty levels when in all honestly they seem about as hard (for different reasons obv) as eachother for pika to face. It seems that's not changing though, so i'll drop it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I just like sword fights. Ever since i was a little boy and we had peeing contests... errr wait, is this one of those things that i'm not supposed to talk about?