Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[TresChikon]

I don't have more time to write about other characters atm.

I was actually hoping to get insight on the Fox vs. Samus MU. I find it difficult to believe that it would be even.

 

[TheManaLord]

falcon has lots of reliable combos against sheik

it's definitely not like 75-25 or higher. if anything it's 65-35 or 70-30. It's bad, but it's winnable for sure. Falcon's just at... A DISADVANTAGE LOL.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I'd say 70-30 would be a >>.

 

[xbombr]

I was actually hoping to get insight on the Fox vs. Samus MU. I find it difficult to believe that it would be even.

I still think it's even as well, but no one would listen to me.

We can get out of his shield pressure, his combos aren't as guaranteed as they are against most characters, the edgeguarding thing that HugS mentioned applies to the Fox match up as well (although it's just a bit harder against Fox because he can recover from a longer distance). His laser game is about the equivalent of Falco's since it causes no stun, although he has more mobility than Falco does.

In short, I don't see it as much different from how HugS describes the Falco match up. Fox's manueverability and other subtle differences (Such as recovery length) are what makes it even instead of slight advantage Samus. Of course it's not played exactly the same way, but it boils down to what HugS describes over all.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I'd say 70-30 would be a >>.

65-35 and 70-30 are >>

 

[TresChikon]

I still think it's even as well, but no one would listen to me.

We can get out of his shield pressure, his combos aren't as guaranteed as they are against most characters, the edgeguarding thing that HugS mentioned applies to the Fox match up as well (although it's just a bit harder against Fox because he can recover from a longer distance). His laser game is about the equivalent of Falco's since it causes no stun, although he has more mobility than Falco does.

In short, I don't see it as much different from how HugS describes the Falco match up. Fox's manueverability and other subtle differences (Such as recovery length) are what makes it even instead of slight advantage Samus. Of course it's not played exactly the same way, but it boils down to what HugS describes over all.

Have you ever played against a Fox? It's no way in hell similar to Falco.

Fox is so much faster and if given a larger stage such as FD, DL, and BF, Fox can camp Samus extremely effectively. Fox doesn't need to pressure Samus' shield at all, he has unlimited ammo, he can just laser camp Samus and force her to use her sub-par approaches and once she does, Fox can camp a platform or camp using empty shines, SH's, and bairs to beat out all of her approaches.

If Samus even thinks about hitting the air to approach, her laggy air speed is just asking to get ***** by Fox from under.

True that Fox has no combos, but a patient Fox has all the tools to overcome anything that Samus throws at him.

So unless they're on FoD or YS where Fox can't play an effective defensive game, Fox should still have the advantage.

 

[xbombr]

Have you ever played against a Fox? It's no way in hell similar to Falco.

Fox is so much faster and if given a larger stage such as FD, DL, and BF, Fox can camp Samus extremely effectively. Fox doesn't need to pressure Samus' shield at all, he has unlimited ammo, he can just laser camp Samus and force her to use her sub-par approaches and once she does, Fox can camp a platform or camp using empty shines, SH's, and bairs to beat out all of her approaches.

If Samus even thinks about hitting the air to approach, her laggy air speed is just asking to get ***** by Fox from under.

True that Fox has no combos, but a patient Fox has all the tools to overcome anything that Samus throws at him.

So unless they're on FoD or YS where Fox can't play an effective defensive game, Fox should still have the advantage.

Playing against Samus isn't like playing against other characters. Playing against Fox is different than playing against Falco, but it boils down to the same basic things (offense, defense, and edgeguards/recovery). Falco is good at limiting other character's mobility with his laser game, Fox cannot. Although Fox has more mobility than Falco, so does his opponent in relative terms.

Both of them can camp Samus, but there are ways around it. It's a matter of getting inside, and once you do, then you can outspace him. While Fox is harder to corner, it's easier to break through his camping since his lasers have 0 stun. It's a tradeoff. Getting camped by either is really annoying, but Fox maybe moreso.

You don't have to approach from the air at all. Missile, wait for opportunities to get inside, maybe dash attack, punish approaches, ect. It's not as bad as you make it out to be. I don't see why there's such a big emphasis on aerial approaches, they're so easy to **** if you have the ability to properly predict and respace yourself as necessary. People spamming aerials is a huge reason why a character like Samus is able to stand out amongst all these top tiers with **** approaches and gay AT's.

FD is probably a bad stage for this match up, but you live FOREVER on DL and it's closer to even there, imo. BF is something I can't really say one way or the other. BF limits both character's recovery, but probably Fox's moreso. BF is decent size, but it's not so big that he has this massive camping game that's impossible to get through.

It may not have been even before, but the new stage list screwed Fox over in a few match ups...and I think this is one of them. Basically, you're guaranteed to play on even stages throughout most of the set. The first stage is even because of striking, then you get Fox's CP if you win, then if you were to lose you'd have your cp to play on. If Fox wins the first match you get to CP the second, and he gets the third. It's even, whoever wins the first match up has stage advantage for the majority of the set. On stages where Fox can't camp, Fox won't win unless he outplays Samus since Samus can shut down his approach. Likewise, if Samus has trouble breaking through the camping, then Samus can't win unless they outplay Fox whenever he does go in for the kill or decides to approach.

A patient Samus has all the tools to overcome anything that Fox throws at her.
^See what I did thar?

I see the signs of an even match up. It's probably more stage dependent than the vs. Falco match is due to manueverability being more of an issue, but with how the stage system works now, I can't see it being a clear advantage for either of them.

If Falco is at a slight disadvantage like HugS said, then Fox is even with Samus. Fox is only slighty better than Falco against Samus in my book. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, but I can definitely see it being even as Lovage and HugS have said. If it is in Fox's favor, I can't see it being more than 5%, and for the purposes of the chart, that's even, imo.

 

[TresChikon]

Falco is good at limiting other character's mobility with his laser game, Fox cannot. Although Fox has more mobility than Falco, so does his opponent in relative terms.

You have the misconception that just because Fox's lasers don't have stun they become horrible. Fox's lasers are actually way better in this MU than Falco's. Falco's lasers work as a control-oriented tool which aids in offense while Fox's are much faster and coupled with Fox's speed, they work much better as a tool for camping.

Both of them can camp Samus, but there are ways around it. It's a matter of getting inside, and once you do, then you can outspace him. While Fox is harder to corner, it's easier to break through his camping since his lasers have 0 stun. It's a tradeoff. Getting camped by either is really annoying, but Fox maybe moreso.

Of course getting inside someone's space beats them, Samus can beat Marth if she gets in his space, but you act like that's the easiest thing ever.

Samus' only viable game against Fox is a heavily grounded defensive game, and you can't use that to approach very well, so Fox pretty much shuts down all of her options.

You don't "break through" Fox's laser camping; laser camping is just to force an approach and put Samus in a very bad position. So you don't really "tradeoff" anything, Samus just eats bairs for trying to approach.

FD is probably a bad stage for this match up, but you live FOREVER on DL and it's closer to even there, imo.

That isn't how a match-up works.

It doesn't matter if Samus dies on FD at 90% and at 110% on DL, if she can't touch her opponent, then she loses anyways.

You don't have to approach from the air at all. Missile, wait for opportunities to get inside, maybe dash attack, punish approaches, ect. It's not as bad as you make it out to be. I don't see why there's such a big emphasis on aerial approaches, they're so easy to **** if you have the ability to properly predict and respace yourself as necessary. People spamming aerials is a huge reason why a character like Samus is able to stand out amongst all these top tiers with **** approaches and gay AT's.

Missile camping doesn't even come close to beating laser camping. Missiles at best help with approaches, and even then only really work when Fox does something really stupid to counter the missile, like f-smashing it. (Didn't someone say this earlier?)

I was just emphasizing that there's very little Samus can do to approach a Fox on defense including aerial, missile, and grounded approaches.

It may not have been even before, but the new stage list screwed Fox over in a few match ups...and I think this is one of them.

Probably the most accurate statement you've made, the new stage list ***** Fox's orifices. However, Fox still holds an advantage on the majority of the available stages. FoD would probably be his worst stage, but even then, the MU is at worst, even on that stage.

On stages where Fox can't camp, Fox won't win unless he outplays Samus since Samus can shut down his approach. Likewise, if Samus has trouble breaking through the camping, then Samus can't win unless they outplay Fox whenever he does go in for the kill or decides to approach.

I don't know where things got lost in translation, but I already stated that smaller stages make the MU even. But the rest of the stages give Fox an advantage, so it ultimately gives Fox a slight advantage.

I can't see it being a clear advantage for either of them.

If Falco is at a slight disadvantage like HugS said, then Fox is even with Samus. Fox is only slighty better than Falco against Samus in my book.

Again, Falco and Fox play entirely differently, you can't just copy and paste MU info for each other.

If it is in Fox's favor, I can't see it being more than 5%, and for the purposes of the chart, that's even, imo.

Numbers are trivial here, but there certainly is a slight advantage for Fox

A patient Samus has all the tools to overcome anything that Fox throws at her.
^See what I did thar?

Patience doesn't beat lasers.

 

[xbombr]

You have the misconception that just because Fox's lasers don't have stun they become horrible. Fox's lasers are actually way better in this MU than Falco's. Falco's lasers work as a control-oriented tool which aids in offense while Fox's are much faster and coupled with Fox's speed, they work much better as a tool for camping.

No. I never said they were horrible. I acknowledged that his camping game is superior to Falco's.

Of course getting inside someone's space beats them, Samus can beat Marth if she gets in his space, but you act like that's the easiest thing ever.

I never said it was easy. That's what discourages people from thinking it's even though.

Samus' only viable game against Fox is a heavily grounded defensive game, and you can't use that to approach very well, so Fox pretty much shuts down all of her options.

At least you've got a method of approaching as Samus that isn't easily punishable. The same can't be said for Fox. You can use her airgame, you just need to set up for it properly.

You don't "break through" Fox's laser camping; laser camping is just to force an approach and put Samus in a very bad position. So you don't really "tradeoff" anything, Samus just eats bairs for trying to approach.

If this is Fox's only method of punishing her approach effectively, then it's easy to bait. He also has to turn around for the BAir, so he's not camping you then.

What you trade off is the ability to control your opponent with lasers.

WD in with your shield up most of the time. You can react to nearly everything with UpB if he tries to approach, if he doesn't approach then either you've gained ground or you've forced him to move elsewhere. Depending on your stage positioning you can attempt to cover whatever options he has.

That isn't how a match-up works.

It doesn't matter if Samus dies on FD at 90% and at 110% on DL, if she can't touch her opponent, then she loses anyways.

DL and FD are different stages entirely. Fox can't kill you on DL until higher %'s than normal, while his ability to recover hasn't changed. DL could have it's merit, but the camping on that stage would get annoying. It's closer to even, but not necessarily even.

Missile camping doesn't even come close to beating laser camping. Missiles at best help with approaches, and even then only really work when Fox does something really stupid to counter the missile, like f-smashing it. (Didn't someone say this earlier?)

I was just emphasizing that there's very little Samus can do to approach a Fox on defense including aerial, missile, and grounded approaches.

You can punish just about anything they can block a missile with it if you space and time properly. Everything has lag and Samus should be right next to Fox if she's approaching. Also, Fox doesn't really have a guaranteed approach against Samus either.

Probably the most accurate statement you've made, the new stage list ***** Fox's orifices. However, Fox still holds an advantage on the majority of the available stages. FoD would probably be his worst stage, but even then, the MU is at worst, even on that stage.

Matches aren't played on a majority of the stages though. The first match up should be on the most fair stage, the rest are played on whatever gives the loser of the previous match an advantage. Having a majority of the stages doesn't matter as long as there are enough that you don't end up having to play on an unfavorable stage either in the first match or in a match where you get the CP.

I don't know where things got lost in translation, but I already stated that smaller stages make the MU even. But the rest of the stages give Fox an advantage, so it ultimately gives Fox a slight advantage.

I disagree, Fox needs to camp and he can't do it very well on small stages. Samus can shut down everything else he has pretty well.

Again, Falco and Fox play entirely differently, you can't just copy and paste MU info for each other.

I'm not really doing that, but there is cross over between the two match ups that's undeniable. The things that Falco has against Samus, are things that Fox does better because of how the character is designed. Fox does have a better match up against Samus than Falco does, but similar flaws in Fox's game that Samus exploits in Falco's game still exist because they have clone movesets. Although Fox's moves behave differently from Falco's, Samus' edgeguarding doesn't change a whole lot, her methods of combatting approaches doesn't change much, and what moves work well doesn't change much.

Numbers are trivial here, but there certainly is a slight advantage for Fox

Numbers are how the old charts were based. I figured giving something more familiar to represent my thinking would be helpful.

Patience doesn't beat lasers.

Nothing "beats" lasers, but you can stop it temporarily by missiling and you can WD OoS -> Shield to gain distance and take minimal damage. You can get inside range. It's tough, but manageable. Missile approaches work too. His laser camping is annoying as hell, don't get me wrong, but that alone won't win him the match up, especially on a small stage.

Anyway, my opinion on this match up isn't changing, and I'll probably never change anyone's opinion because it's tough to describe how everything works in practice. So I'm going to leave it at this.

 

[TresChikon]

Anyway, my opinion on this match up isn't changing, and I'll probably never change anyone's opinion because it's tough to describe how everything works in practice. So I'm going to leave it at this.

You make huge claims, but you don't refute anything.

Fox doesn't have an unbeatable broken approach on Samus because Samus has a solid defense.

But he doesn't need to approach, which is crucial in the MU.

Nothing "beats" lasers, but you can stop it temporarily by missiling and you can WD OoS -> Shield to gain distance and take minimal damage. You can get inside range. It's tough, but manageable. Missile approaches work too. His laser camping is annoying as hell, don't get me wrong, but that alone won't win him the match up, especially on a small stage.

Lasers essentially force an approach, which is exactly what you're explaining.

Regardless of the tricks to do it, Samus still needs to approach and that doesn't allow her to lean on her powerful defensive game...which is bad.

You can punish just about anything if you space and time properly.

You haven't given me anything except for claims that Samus can win with good spacing and timing. Which is true with any MU.

I disagree, Fox needs to camp and he can't do it very well on small stages. Samus can shut down everything else he has pretty well.

Shut what down with what?

If you're going to say WD back -> punish, then I'll tell you that WD back pretty much beats out all approaches in the game.

If Fox needs to approach, he still has a lot more tools to deal with Samus' defense.

Fox can empty shine - > bair Samus from behind if she decides to space with f-tilts.

Bairs can space out any up+b defenses.

Drill shine pretty much ensures a u-smash.

Fox isn't just about nairshinenairshinenairshine.

If this is Fox's only method of punishing her approach effectively, then it's easy to bait.

It isn't, Fox can empty shine to bait tilts, which are one of Samus' most effective spacing tools.

Fox can camp the top platform and harass her with shines and DJ's.

Point is, the things that Samus uses to approach don't fare very well against Fox's defensive harassment.

WD in with your shield up most of the time. You can react to nearly everything with UpB if he tries to approach, if he doesn't approach then either you've gained ground or you've forced him to move elsewhere. Depending on your stage positioning you can attempt to cover whatever options he has.

Up+B doesn't beat spaced bairs.

And what if he retreats to a platform? Samus has nothing viable to seize that platform.

You can use her airgame, you just need to set up for it properly.

What does this even mean?

DL and FD are different stages entirely. Fox can't kill you on DL until higher %'s than normal, while his ability to recover hasn't changed. DL could have it's merit, but the camping on that stage would get annoying. It's closer to even, but not necessarily even.

You still haven't said anything that really helps Samus.

DL actually makes it worse for Samus, with the platforms there, Fox has even more mobility and can run circles around her.

Your recovery logic is flawed.

Marth is known to effectively shut down Samus, yet with proper DI, she can live to extraordinary percentages.

So why is it still a bad MU?

Because in the end, Samus is getting hit and Marth isn't.

Same concept applies to DL; DL makes Fox even harder to hit and a few extra percent to get the kill doesn't matter much.

Matches aren't played on a majority of the stages though. The first match up should be on the most fair stage, the rest are played on whatever gives the loser of the previous match an advantage. Having a majority of the stages doesn't matter as long as there are enough that you don't end up having to play on an unfavorable stage either in the first match or in a match where you get the CP.

Stages are either even or disadvantageous for Samus, I don't really see how that doesn't give Fox an edge.

Anyway, my opinion on this match up isn't changing. So I'm going to leave it at this.

That's not really how a discussion works and is an ignorant way to end an argument.

I'm not really doing that, but there is cross over between the two match ups that's undeniable. The things that Falco has against Samus, are things that Fox does better because of how the character is designed. Fox does have a better match up against Samus than Falco does, but similar flaws in Fox's game that Samus exploits in Falco's game still exist because they have clone movesets. Although Fox's moves behave differently from Falco's, Samus' edgeguarding doesn't change a whole lot, her methods of combatting approaches doesn't change much, and what moves work well doesn't change much.

What things cross over?

What do you mean about how Fox is designed?

What flaws that exists in Fox's game exists in Falco's?

Fox and Falco don't approach the same way, so how do you deal with them in the same way?

Just because Ganon and Falcon are clones you can use their aesthetically similar movesets to correspond to each other?

I feel that you're just making stuff up now, do you even play the two characters?

 

[xbombr]

What things cross over?

What do you mean about how Fox is designed?

What flaws that exists in Fox's game exists in Falco's?

Fox and Falco don't approach the same way, so how do you deal with them in the same way?

Just because Ganon and Falcon are clones you can use their aesthetically similar movesets to correspond to each other?

I feel that you're just making stuff up now, do you even play the two characters?

I play Samus. Maybe I'm biased into believing this match up isn't as simple as getting lasered 5 million times until he drill shine usmashes you.

Their recovery is very similar. Aerial cancels into a shine. If BAir and empty shines were that good, then Samus wouldn't have a match up against Falco either. Similar priority and range.

They're not the same character, you're absolutely correct. There are things, even in the Ganon/Falcon match ups that cross over. In their case it's far less stuff though because of weight and fallspeed, a difference in some of their other moves (Most notably FAir), a very different recovery, and a huge difference in running/attack speed.

Samus most notably exploits the spacies recovery, and the only real difference that Samus has to watch out for is the length of the firefox compared to the firebird. The charge time and such is just as exploitable as it is in the Falco match up. Fox fares better because of his speed, vertical kill moves, and not much else.

Perhaps the way I intended to end the discussion was ignorant, but I'd rather someone who people might actually believe come in and talk about the match up so I don't feel like I'm making an *** of myself by saying Fox has someone he goes even with that isn't even in high tier.

 

[TresChikon]

Everything you're saying isn't wrong and I do want to believe you.

However, the comparisons you make will look good on paper, but in reality Fox's speed allows him to use his moveset in an entirely different sense. In such a sense that would let Fox prevail over Falco in the MU.

Simply, Samus is a tank and Fox has every tool he needs to run around it.

Falco has similar tools, but is a character based on control. So he's also a really good tank.

It just happens that Samus is a better tank in this MU.

Speed plays a huge role.

If you want to look at the tidbits then Fox has a much much quicker jump. This makes his WD much better. Fox has a superior DJ, this makes baiting stuff with empty moves very effective compared to Falco. It also makes his edgeplay far more dangerous to deal with. Fox has a much better DD than Falco. Fox has a better FF than Falco.

All of these dynamically change the way Fox can approach and pressure, and although he does have holes in his advances, they're not the same as Falco's.

I'm not trying to make you sound dumb, it's just that theory doesn't decide a MU.

 

[xbombr]

I'm not trying to make you sound dumb, it's just that theory doesn't decide a MU.

And this is what my point was as well. Everyone seems to think that as soon as Fox goes into camp mode, then Samus can't win or do anything at all, in reality that's not true.

The problem is that Samus is a less technical character, so it makes her look less worthy on paper. In reality, your mental game can be much deeper than Fox's because you have more time to think and less of your mind dedicated to the technical aspect of the match up. Kind of like how Jiggs works. Maybe this doesn't necessarily translate into a match up advantage in terms of a chart or a tier list, but I see it as a huge asset in a match up based entirely on cracking the other party's defenses. It's not a match up at all based on overpowering the other's offense, but entirely on getting through their defense. I don't see either of them doing it effectively.

In practice, I see it as even, but on paper, maybe not so much. That's probably why most of us saying it's even claim that it's hard to describe what Samus does right in the match up.

 

[TheManaLord]

^^
what the f are all these posts?

EDIT:

down here too
vv

 

[TresChikon]

The problem is that Samus is a less technical character, so it makes her look less worthy on paper.

Technical potential doesn't show how good a character is. Just look at Sheik and Marth.

In reality, your mental game can be much deeper than Fox's because you have more time to think and less of your mind dedicated to the technical aspect of the match up.

That's not true, technical skill doesn't necessarily mean a player is going to be distracted by it. In fact, technical skill is how well a person can control their character, so if anything, technical skill should be completely seamless and not distract a player at all.

Kind of like how Jiggs works.

*sigh*

Jiggs doesn't win because she isn't technical.

I'm just going to save you the trouble and tell you that you're very misguided about this point and not go too deep into this.

Maybe this doesn't necessarily translate into a match up advantage in terms of a chart or a tier list, but I see it as a huge asset in a match up based entirely on cracking the other party's defenses.

I'm not positive how being not technical can allow you to beat a defense.

________________

I can tell that you still have several misconceptions on how MU's work. You're still too focused on the surface aesthetics of a character you're not that familiar with and you're not taking into consideration the basic foundation of how each character runs.

I play a Samus very often, so I'm taking all of this from experience, it seems like you're just taking the skin deep understanding of Fox and applying it to the MU.

^^
what the f are all these posts?

Just waiting around for Hugs

 

[xbombr]

*sigh* I give up. You completely misunderstood I meant.

The point was that technical requirements do distract players no matter how subtle it is. I never said for sure that it was a point that could be used in either character's favor for the purposes of the chart because it's not something that's measureable and varies by player.

The point of bringing up Jiggs was that her low technical requirement is a positive for her since there's no major technical game to sustain. It allows her to focus more heavily on mindgames, flawless spacing, and exploiting holes in their game. I suppose Fox could accomplish the same thing. Can't say I've ever really seen anyone completely forego any and all tech skill as Fox though. My real point though was that characters with little or no tech skill requirements can still compete very well with strong characters with tech requirements.

Anyway I agree with a large portion of what you're saying, but I don't think the match up is as simple as camp -> upsmash.

I'm done with this. I'm not helping anything by offering my opinion.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Samus isn't Bowser, Fox can't abuse circle movement and expect to never get hit.

Samus has too much range and too fast a wavedash for that.

 

[HugS™]

Have you ever played against a Fox? It's no way in hell similar to Falco.

Fox is so much faster and if given a larger stage such as FD, DL, and BF, Fox can camp Samus extremely effectively. Fox doesn't need to pressure Samus' shield at all, he has unlimited ammo, he can just laser camp Samus and force her to use her sub-par approaches and once she does, Fox can camp a platform or camp using empty shines, SH's, and bairs to beat out all of her approaches.

If Samus even thinks about hitting the air to approach, her laggy air speed is just asking to get ***** by Fox from under.

True that Fox has no combos, but a patient Fox has all the tools to overcome anything that Samus throws at him.

So unless they're on FoD or YS where Fox can't play an effective defensive game, Fox should still have the advantage.

I feel that a Fox who tries to outcamp Samus is a Fox who does not know the matchup.

Going by experience alone, the only foxes to ever beat me post 2006 have been aggressive foxes, always. It's like there are phases in every great fox on how to approach the matchup.

They start aggressive and get destroyed. Then they try camping and while they do get closer, they can't seem to ever win this way. Then they evolve to the way that Mango plays the matchup, they learn to overwhelm the Samus.

See, fox aggression is easy to deal with. You CC dsmash the Bairs, you up B the nair shines, you ftilt/utilt nearly everything else. The point is, pure aggression does nothing to overwhelm a good Samus.

Likewise, a defensive approach doesn't work too great either IMO. It's easy to get in because of the lack of laser stun. And once you do, it's a matter of analyzing the pattern. Everyone will have a pattern they use to evade Samus. Does he shield? Does he roll? Does he jump/double jump? Does he go aggro when you get in close? When you figure out the pattern and know the tool to deal with it, it's pretty common to trade damage evenly until the two characters are both at KO percentage. And who's got an easier time catching that KO hit? The campy fox? Or the Samus who's been spending the whole match catching patterns.

Not to mention, an approach can sometimes lead to an edgeguard opportunity, and this is what would break the cycle of keeping the % even and landing the KO move. A good edgeguard for the lead causes the fox to change into aggro mode.

The correct way to play fox vs Samus is to overwhelm Samus. That is, be aggressive but know her options. Have a purpose with your aggression. A lot of Foxes mistake their lack of ability with the idea that fox can't do the matchup aggressively. He certainly can, and it's his best choice.

Learn to light shield upB's, learn her wavedash timing to start baiting Wavedashes (people rarely do this), ride the platforms. It's way harder to deal with this style of Fox because their patterns involve opportunities they create for themselves to deal me serious damage. A mis-step in catching these patterns leads to a lost stock in many cases, where as a mistake in catching a campy fox's pattern leads to a few lasers.

An overwhelming Fox becomes so adept at punishing a Samus, that it calls for so much pensiveness when Samus makes a decision that...well...it overwhelms the Samus. It is only in this situation that I consider the matchup to be 55-45 Fox, but this style of play has only come from Mango/Lucky/maaaaybe M2k , where Lucky is the only player who may be better than me, while the other two definitely are. So I ignore these instances, and instead focus on players who are on or below my level, who employ a defensive strategy (Sometimes even, though usually in Samus's favor) or a muddled aggro strategy (always in samus's favor).

So in my eyes, I see a style that goes slightly uneven for Fox (Defensive), a style that gets ***** by Samus (aggro), and a style that beats Samus 55% of the time, but only 3 players employ it (Overwhelming Samus).

That's why I consider the matchup to be even.

 

[TresChikon]

A lot of Foxes mistake their lack of ability with the idea that fox can't do the matchup aggressively. He certainly can, and it's his best choice.

I guess I fall in this category.

The reason why I've felt like this was it seemed like the first stage of a Fox, where Fox isn't advertently aggro, he would be 40-60. However, when he would become campy and abuse Samus' inability to pressure very hard, the MU would change drastically in his favor.

However, I'm not anywhere good enough to have hit the 3rd "Mango/Lucky/M2K" stage of understanding of the MU.

I guess that's where my understanding falls into disproportion.

So it would seem that a majority of Foxes would be disfavored in the MU if all else.

Hugs, does Lovage play with you? He also says it's around even. What kind of style does he employ with Fox?

 

[HugS™]

I play with Lovage very often. He goes super aggro on me, and is borderline on the level of mango/lucky when it comes to playing the matchup.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Lovage is so much fun to play because of how well he knows the matchup.

 

[t3h Icy]

Some Agreement:
Bowser > Yoshi to Bowser = Yoshi
Doc = DK to Doc > DK
Doc >> Pikachu to Doc > Pikachu
Fox > Jigglypuff to Fox = Jigglypuff
Fox > Samus to Fox = Samus
Ganon >> Samus to Ganon > Samus
ICs = Doc to ICs > Doc
Mario = DK to Mario > DK
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco
Peach > Y.Link to Peach = Y.Link
Sheik >> Pikachu to Sheik >>> Pikachu
Yoshi > Kirby to Yoshi = Kirby

Thanks Hugs for helping out. =)

 

[unknown522]

I play with Lovage very often. He goes super aggro on me, and is borderline on the level of mango/lucky when it comes to playing the matchup.

yeah, when you space well vs samus and limit her options up close, then she's probably gonna get *****.

But honestly, you need to camp her a little too, but don't let the missiles overwhelm you when you're camping.

 

[Skler]

Quick question, can you DI/smash DI the upB OOS to tech it? It happens to me a lot when I use Samus and I feel like it would change her space animal matchups a lot.

 

[TresChikon]

You mean like once you're already in it, and you're trying to SDI into a platform to tech it?

In that case, no, you can SDI out of it, but not tech directly out of it.

If you're talking about the very first initial hit on the ground then, yes ASDI will let you tech it.

 

[xbombr]

You'd either have to have superhuman reaction skills or see the UpB coming from over a mile away and not be in the air to tech the first hit. Either way there are superior alternatives to teching. If you know they're going to UpB then you're better off baiting it out via mindgame and either being out of it's range or lightshielding then punishing accordingly.

People have been getting out of later hits of UpB OoS for ages. It's main use isn't really to do tons of damage, but to escape pressure and help make up for lacking a reliable shield grab as a punishment option.

I can't see it affecting the match up much really.

 

[unknown522]

Quick question, can you DI/smash DI the upB OOS to tech it? It happens to me a lot when I use Samus and I feel like it would change her space animal matchups a lot.

Yeah. it usually happens when people try to pressure samus' shield with move -> shine because they are holding down and also the L-canceling.

 

[TresChikon]

Yeah. it usually happens when people try to pressure samus' shield with move -> shine because they are holding down and also the L-canceling.

Accidental Armadas ^_^

Sweet sig unknown.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya that is a sick sig, =P

 

[HugS™]

yeah i'm not gonna lie, it's a pretty good sig.

 

[t3h Icy]

Is it specifically the guys that made it into bracket at Pound 4, or is that just coincidence?

Do you have a larger version of it?

 

[unknown522]

No, it's not a coincidence. Blowtoes took the pics from the top 48 vid from pound 4.

Also, thanks for the comments guys.

Okay I fixed it.

my hair sucks in the pic. I was supposed to get it cut, but now I have a mini-afro.

 

[Ripple]

Roy<mario
Roy<<<ganon
Roy>G&W
RoY<Y.link
Roy<Falcon

 

[unknown522]

Roy<mario
Roy<<<ganon
Roy>G&W
RoY<Y.link
Roy<Falcon

these are all wrong.

Except ganon

 

[Kyu Puff]

Isn't d-tilt -> reverse up+b a guaranteed combo on G&W?

 

[unknown522]

yeah it is.

 

[Ripple]

these are all wrong.

Except ganon

glad you can say why

do you play these characters and against a top level roy? or are you a top level and play them?

 

[t3h Icy]

glad you can say why

do you play these characters and against a top level roy? or are you a top level and play them?

To be fair, you didn't say why either, and only a handful of players are as fluent with Roy as you likely are, so mind explaining?

 

[unknown522]

glad you can say why

do you play these characters and against a top level roy? or are you a top level and play them?

My mario is definitely high level if anything.

Anyways, mario can combo roy to hell, and roy doesn't get much off hits vs mario. His CC also ***** roy.

YL camps the **** out of roy and can decently combo him. Roy can do **** to YL as well, but YL easily outdamages roy. He also has a much easier time getting roy offstage.

Falcon, combos roy so badly as well, and runs him over with speed, range and a good weight. Roy's hits on falcon suck, unless you get a d-tilt -> f-smash...

Gaw, I misinterpreted the arrow.

 

[Ripple]

My mario is definitely high level if anything.

Anyways, mario can combo roy to hell, and roy doesn't get much off hits vs mario. His CC also ***** roy.

YL camps the **** out of roy and can decently combo him. Roy can do **** to YL as well, but YL easily outdamages roy. He also has a much easier time getting roy offstage.

Falcon, combos roy so badly as well, and runs him over with speed, range and a good weight. Roy's hits on falcon suck, unless you get a d-tilt -> f-smash...

Gaw, I misinterpreted the arrow.

ok so we agree on G&W

-------------------------------------

Y.link is only > than roy because of his lack of KO power. link has the power to kill roy and camp him to death but lacks in speed.

Y.link has speed but so does Roy. roy can be played very fast.

imo Y.link's lack of reliable kill power makes in only >

----------------------------

falcon combos everybody.

Falcon is arguably Roy's best high/top tier match up. CC d-tilt in between nair stops falcon's main approach.

Roy can also tech chase Falcon very well. chain grab him also from like 30-45 or something, but thats not really anything.

Roy gets falcon off stage pretty well actually. 3 hits of ded or d-tilt f-smash usually do the trick around 50%. not to mention that roy can actually edgeguard falcon with flare blade and f-smash.


---------------------------------------------

Mario doesn't have the grab to fair like Doc. thats what pretty much makes it a >> in his favor( and pills). Mario can combo I agree but he can't kill from a grab. fireballs aren't as annoying also.