TresChikon
Smash Lord
I was actually hoping to get insight on the Fox vs. Samus MU. I find it difficult to believe that it would be even.I don't have more time to write about other characters atm.
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
I was actually hoping to get insight on the Fox vs. Samus MU. I find it difficult to believe that it would be even.I don't have more time to write about other characters atm.
I still think it's even as well, but no one would listen to me.I was actually hoping to get insight on the Fox vs. Samus MU. I find it difficult to believe that it would be even.
65-35 and 70-30 are >>I'd say 70-30 would be a >>.
Have you ever played against a Fox? It's no way in hell similar to Falco.I still think it's even as well, but no one would listen to me.
We can get out of his shield pressure, his combos aren't as guaranteed as they are against most characters, the edgeguarding thing that HugS mentioned applies to the Fox match up as well (although it's just a bit harder against Fox because he can recover from a longer distance). His laser game is about the equivalent of Falco's since it causes no stun, although he has more mobility than Falco does.
In short, I don't see it as much different from how HugS describes the Falco match up. Fox's manueverability and other subtle differences (Such as recovery length) are what makes it even instead of slight advantage Samus. Of course it's not played exactly the same way, but it boils down to what HugS describes over all.
Playing against Samus isn't like playing against other characters. Playing against Fox is different than playing against Falco, but it boils down to the same basic things (offense, defense, and edgeguards/recovery). Falco is good at limiting other character's mobility with his laser game, Fox cannot. Although Fox has more mobility than Falco, so does his opponent in relative terms.Have you ever played against a Fox? It's no way in hell similar to Falco.
Fox is so much faster and if given a larger stage such as FD, DL, and BF, Fox can camp Samus extremely effectively. Fox doesn't need to pressure Samus' shield at all, he has unlimited ammo, he can just laser camp Samus and force her to use her sub-par approaches and once she does, Fox can camp a platform or camp using empty shines, SH's, and bairs to beat out all of her approaches.
If Samus even thinks about hitting the air to approach, her laggy air speed is just asking to get ***** by Fox from under.
True that Fox has no combos, but a patient Fox has all the tools to overcome anything that Samus throws at him.
So unless they're on FoD or YS where Fox can't play an effective defensive game, Fox should still have the advantage.
You have the misconception that just because Fox's lasers don't have stun they become horrible. Fox's lasers are actually way better in this MU than Falco's. Falco's lasers work as a control-oriented tool which aids in offense while Fox's are much faster and coupled with Fox's speed, they work much better as a tool for camping.Falco is good at limiting other character's mobility with his laser game, Fox cannot. Although Fox has more mobility than Falco, so does his opponent in relative terms.
Of course getting inside someone's space beats them, Samus can beat Marth if she gets in his space, but you act like that's the easiest thing ever.Both of them can camp Samus, but there are ways around it. It's a matter of getting inside, and once you do, then you can outspace him. While Fox is harder to corner, it's easier to break through his camping since his lasers have 0 stun. It's a tradeoff. Getting camped by either is really annoying, but Fox maybe moreso.
That isn't how a match-up works.FD is probably a bad stage for this match up, but you live FOREVER on DL and it's closer to even there, imo.
Missile camping doesn't even come close to beating laser camping. Missiles at best help with approaches, and even then only really work when Fox does something really stupid to counter the missile, like f-smashing it. (Didn't someone say this earlier?)You don't have to approach from the air at all. Missile, wait for opportunities to get inside, maybe dash attack, punish approaches, ect. It's not as bad as you make it out to be. I don't see why there's such a big emphasis on aerial approaches, they're so easy to **** if you have the ability to properly predict and respace yourself as necessary. People spamming aerials is a huge reason why a character like Samus is able to stand out amongst all these top tiers with **** approaches and gay AT's.
Probably the most accurate statement you've made, the new stage list ***** Fox's orifices. However, Fox still holds an advantage on the majority of the available stages. FoD would probably be his worst stage, but even then, the MU is at worst, even on that stage.It may not have been even before, but the new stage list screwed Fox over in a few match ups...and I think this is one of them.
I don't know where things got lost in translation, but I already stated that smaller stages make the MU even. But the rest of the stages give Fox an advantage, so it ultimately gives Fox a slight advantage.On stages where Fox can't camp, Fox won't win unless he outplays Samus since Samus can shut down his approach. Likewise, if Samus has trouble breaking through the camping, then Samus can't win unless they outplay Fox whenever he does go in for the kill or decides to approach.
Again, Falco and Fox play entirely differently, you can't just copy and paste MU info for each other.I can't see it being a clear advantage for either of them.
If Falco is at a slight disadvantage like HugS said, then Fox is even with Samus. Fox is only slighty better than Falco against Samus in my book.
Numbers are trivial here, but there certainly is a slight advantage for FoxIf it is in Fox's favor, I can't see it being more than 5%, and for the purposes of the chart, that's even, imo.
Patience doesn't beat lasers.A patient Samus has all the tools to overcome anything that Fox throws at her.
^See what I did thar?
No. I never said they were horrible. I acknowledged that his camping game is superior to Falco's.You have the misconception that just because Fox's lasers don't have stun they become horrible. Fox's lasers are actually way better in this MU than Falco's. Falco's lasers work as a control-oriented tool which aids in offense while Fox's are much faster and coupled with Fox's speed, they work much better as a tool for camping.
I never said it was easy. That's what discourages people from thinking it's even though.Of course getting inside someone's space beats them, Samus can beat Marth if she gets in his space, but you act like that's the easiest thing ever.
At least you've got a method of approaching as Samus that isn't easily punishable. The same can't be said for Fox. You can use her airgame, you just need to set up for it properly.Samus' only viable game against Fox is a heavily grounded defensive game, and you can't use that to approach very well, so Fox pretty much shuts down all of her options.
If this is Fox's only method of punishing her approach effectively, then it's easy to bait. He also has to turn around for the BAir, so he's not camping you then.You don't "break through" Fox's laser camping; laser camping is just to force an approach and put Samus in a very bad position. So you don't really "tradeoff" anything, Samus just eats bairs for trying to approach.
DL and FD are different stages entirely. Fox can't kill you on DL until higher %'s than normal, while his ability to recover hasn't changed. DL could have it's merit, but the camping on that stage would get annoying. It's closer to even, but not necessarily even.That isn't how a match-up works.
It doesn't matter if Samus dies on FD at 90% and at 110% on DL, if she can't touch her opponent, then she loses anyways.
You can punish just about anything they can block a missile with it if you space and time properly. Everything has lag and Samus should be right next to Fox if she's approaching. Also, Fox doesn't really have a guaranteed approach against Samus either.Missile camping doesn't even come close to beating laser camping. Missiles at best help with approaches, and even then only really work when Fox does something really stupid to counter the missile, like f-smashing it. (Didn't someone say this earlier?)
I was just emphasizing that there's very little Samus can do to approach a Fox on defense including aerial, missile, and grounded approaches.
Matches aren't played on a majority of the stages though. The first match up should be on the most fair stage, the rest are played on whatever gives the loser of the previous match an advantage. Having a majority of the stages doesn't matter as long as there are enough that you don't end up having to play on an unfavorable stage either in the first match or in a match where you get the CP.Probably the most accurate statement you've made, the new stage list ***** Fox's orifices. However, Fox still holds an advantage on the majority of the available stages. FoD would probably be his worst stage, but even then, the MU is at worst, even on that stage.
I disagree, Fox needs to camp and he can't do it very well on small stages. Samus can shut down everything else he has pretty well.I don't know where things got lost in translation, but I already stated that smaller stages make the MU even. But the rest of the stages give Fox an advantage, so it ultimately gives Fox a slight advantage.
I'm not really doing that, but there is cross over between the two match ups that's undeniable. The things that Falco has against Samus, are things that Fox does better because of how the character is designed. Fox does have a better match up against Samus than Falco does, but similar flaws in Fox's game that Samus exploits in Falco's game still exist because they have clone movesets. Although Fox's moves behave differently from Falco's, Samus' edgeguarding doesn't change a whole lot, her methods of combatting approaches doesn't change much, and what moves work well doesn't change much.Again, Falco and Fox play entirely differently, you can't just copy and paste MU info for each other.
Numbers are how the old charts were based. I figured giving something more familiar to represent my thinking would be helpful.Numbers are trivial here, but there certainly is a slight advantage for Fox
Nothing "beats" lasers, but you can stop it temporarily by missiling and you can WD OoS -> Shield to gain distance and take minimal damage. You can get inside range. It's tough, but manageable. Missile approaches work too. His laser camping is annoying as hell, don't get me wrong, but that alone won't win him the match up, especially on a small stage.Patience doesn't beat lasers.
You make huge claims, but you don't refute anything.Anyway, my opinion on this match up isn't changing, and I'll probably never change anyone's opinion because it's tough to describe how everything works in practice. So I'm going to leave it at this.
Lasers essentially force an approach, which is exactly what you're explaining.Nothing "beats" lasers, but you can stop it temporarily by missiling and you can WD OoS -> Shield to gain distance and take minimal damage. You can get inside range. It's tough, but manageable. Missile approaches work too. His laser camping is annoying as hell, don't get me wrong, but that alone won't win him the match up, especially on a small stage.
You haven't given me anything except for claims that Samus can win with good spacing and timing. Which is true with any MU.You can punish just about anything if you space and time properly.
Shut what down with what?I disagree, Fox needs to camp and he can't do it very well on small stages. Samus can shut down everything else he has pretty well.
It isn't, Fox can empty shine to bait tilts, which are one of Samus' most effective spacing tools.If this is Fox's only method of punishing her approach effectively, then it's easy to bait.
Up+B doesn't beat spaced bairs.WD in with your shield up most of the time. You can react to nearly everything with UpB if he tries to approach, if he doesn't approach then either you've gained ground or you've forced him to move elsewhere. Depending on your stage positioning you can attempt to cover whatever options he has.
What does this even mean?You can use her airgame, you just need to set up for it properly.
You still haven't said anything that really helps Samus.DL and FD are different stages entirely. Fox can't kill you on DL until higher %'s than normal, while his ability to recover hasn't changed. DL could have it's merit, but the camping on that stage would get annoying. It's closer to even, but not necessarily even.
Stages are either even or disadvantageous for Samus, I don't really see how that doesn't give Fox an edge.Matches aren't played on a majority of the stages though. The first match up should be on the most fair stage, the rest are played on whatever gives the loser of the previous match an advantage. Having a majority of the stages doesn't matter as long as there are enough that you don't end up having to play on an unfavorable stage either in the first match or in a match where you get the CP.
That's not really how a discussion works and is an ignorant way to end an argument.Anyway, my opinion on this match up isn't changing. So I'm going to leave it at this.
What things cross over?I'm not really doing that, but there is cross over between the two match ups that's undeniable. The things that Falco has against Samus, are things that Fox does better because of how the character is designed. Fox does have a better match up against Samus than Falco does, but similar flaws in Fox's game that Samus exploits in Falco's game still exist because they have clone movesets. Although Fox's moves behave differently from Falco's, Samus' edgeguarding doesn't change a whole lot, her methods of combatting approaches doesn't change much, and what moves work well doesn't change much.
I play Samus. Maybe I'm biased into believing this match up isn't as simple as getting lasered 5 million times until he drill shine usmashes you.What things cross over?
What do you mean about how Fox is designed?
What flaws that exists in Fox's game exists in Falco's?
Fox and Falco don't approach the same way, so how do you deal with them in the same way?
Just because Ganon and Falcon are clones you can use their aesthetically similar movesets to correspond to each other?
I feel that you're just making stuff up now, do you even play the two characters?
And this is what my point was as well. Everyone seems to think that as soon as Fox goes into camp mode, then Samus can't win or do anything at all, in reality that's not true.I'm not trying to make you sound dumb, it's just that theory doesn't decide a MU.
Technical potential doesn't show how good a character is. Just look at Sheik and Marth.The problem is that Samus is a less technical character, so it makes her look less worthy on paper.
That's not true, technical skill doesn't necessarily mean a player is going to be distracted by it. In fact, technical skill is how well a person can control their character, so if anything, technical skill should be completely seamless and not distract a player at all.In reality, your mental game can be much deeper than Fox's because you have more time to think and less of your mind dedicated to the technical aspect of the match up.
*sigh*Kind of like how Jiggs works.
I'm not positive how being not technical can allow you to beat a defense.Maybe this doesn't necessarily translate into a match up advantage in terms of a chart or a tier list, but I see it as a huge asset in a match up based entirely on cracking the other party's defenses.
Just waiting around for Hugs^^
what the f are all these posts?
I feel that a Fox who tries to outcamp Samus is a Fox who does not know the matchup.Have you ever played against a Fox? It's no way in hell similar to Falco.
Fox is so much faster and if given a larger stage such as FD, DL, and BF, Fox can camp Samus extremely effectively. Fox doesn't need to pressure Samus' shield at all, he has unlimited ammo, he can just laser camp Samus and force her to use her sub-par approaches and once she does, Fox can camp a platform or camp using empty shines, SH's, and bairs to beat out all of her approaches.
If Samus even thinks about hitting the air to approach, her laggy air speed is just asking to get ***** by Fox from under.
True that Fox has no combos, but a patient Fox has all the tools to overcome anything that Samus throws at him.
So unless they're on FoD or YS where Fox can't play an effective defensive game, Fox should still have the advantage.
I guess I fall in this category.A lot of Foxes mistake their lack of ability with the idea that fox can't do the matchup aggressively. He certainly can, and it's his best choice.
yeah, when you space well vs samus and limit her options up close, then she's probably gonna get *****.I play with Lovage very often. He goes super aggro on me, and is borderline on the level of mango/lucky when it comes to playing the matchup.
Yeah. it usually happens when people try to pressure samus' shield with move -> shine because they are holding down and also the L-canceling.Quick question, can you DI/smash DI the upB OOS to tech it? It happens to me a lot when I use Samus and I feel like it would change her space animal matchups a lot.
Accidental Armadas ^_^Yeah. it usually happens when people try to pressure samus' shield with move -> shine because they are holding down and also the L-canceling.
my hair sucks in the pic. I was supposed to get it cut, but now I have a mini-afro.
Okay I fixed it.
these are all wrong.Roy<mario
Roy<<<ganon
Roy>G&W
RoY<Y.link
Roy<Falcon
these are all wrong.
Except ganon
To be fair, you didn't say why either, and only a handful of players are as fluent with Roy as you likely are, so mind explaining?glad you can say why
do you play these characters and against a top level roy? or are you a top level and play them?
My mario is definitely high level if anything.glad you can say why
do you play these characters and against a top level roy? or are you a top level and play them?
ok so we agree on G&WMy mario is definitely high level if anything.
Anyways, mario can combo roy to hell, and roy doesn't get much off hits vs mario. His CC also ***** roy.
YL camps the **** out of roy and can decently combo him. Roy can do **** to YL as well, but YL easily outdamages roy. He also has a much easier time getting roy offstage.
Falcon, combos roy so badly as well, and runs him over with speed, range and a good weight. Roy's hits on falcon suck, unless you get a d-tilt -> f-smash...
Gaw, I misinterpreted the arrow.