Alphicans
Smash Hero
I am no pikachu pro, but sheik and fox at the same difficulty for him seems a little bit odd.
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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
- Status
N64
Smash Champion
Top level fox wrecks pikachu. Not as much as top level sheik, but it's still probably one of his hardest matchups. Pika can combo/gimp fox pretty decently, but he has very limited setups that are usually easy to avoid, while his setups on pikachu are pretty simple and effective. If fox knows the matchup, it's rough.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Would it be fair to say that Fox >> pika, but sheik >>> pika?
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Clearly you missed the sarcasm. =)
unknown522
Some guy
N64
Smash Champion
It would not. If I am understanding >>> correctly, none of pikachus matchups are that extreme. Sheik is the worst, but still >>.
unknown522
Some guy
sheik is incredibly stupid.
at least 80-20 for sheik.
at least 80-20 for sheik.
otg
Smash Master
lol tell that to reno.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
True that. At least Pika can wreck Fox's world if she manages to get a grab.
N64
Smash Champion
Meh. Sheik >>> Pika is fine then. I'm biased about the matchup heh.
Also Pika can wreck sheiks too with the right setup. Like there are legit combos on her and her recovery is terrible (think fox edgeguarding sheik but now he has a slightly more powerful usmash and thunder to punish her getting back on the stage).
Also Pika can wreck sheiks too with the right setup. Like there are legit combos on her and her recovery is terrible (think fox edgeguarding sheik but now he has a slightly more powerful usmash and thunder to punish her getting back on the stage).
Alphicans
Smash Hero
What's with people calling pika a girl? I've been shown proof that the pikachu in melee/brawl is a male >_>.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
pika in all smash games is male
but the "she" was directed towards sheik
but the "she" was directed towards sheik
`DNS`
Smash Lord
unknown522
Some guy
lol, I remember that ****.
yeah, pika can do good **** to fox when he lands a solid hit. He can also beat out most character's moves with u-airs, but the amount of gayness that fox and sheik do to pika is just so ridiculous.
Everyone edgeguards sheik pretty well, but the problem is getting her off. It feels so satasfying to u-smash sheik with pika though. Gotta grunt at her with fury.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Some Agreement:
Bowser > Yoshi to Bowser = Yoshi
Doc = DK to Doc > DK
Doc >> Pikachu to Doc > Pikachu
Fox > Jigglypuff to Fox = Jigglypuff
Ganon >> Samus to Ganon > Samus
ICs = Doc to ICs > Doc
Mario = DK to Mario > DK
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco
Peach > Y.Link to Peach = Y.Link
Sheik >> Pikachu to Sheik >>> Pikachu
Yoshi > Kirby to Yoshi = Kirby
Debating:
Doc >> Kirby to Doc >>> Kirby
Doc >> Roy to Doc >>> Roy
Falco > Doc to Falco = Doc
Falco >>> Link to Falco >> Link
Falcon >>> Link to Falcon >> Link
Falcon >>> Kirby to Falcon >> Kirby
Fox > Doc to Fox = Doc
Fox >> Luigi to Fox > Luigi
Fox > Samus to Fox = Samus
Fox >> Y.Link to Fox >>> Y.Link
Ganon >>> Kirby to Ganon >> Kirby
Jigglypuff > Doc to Jigglypuff = Doc
Jigglypuff >> Luigi to Jigglypuff > Luigi
Jigglypuff >> Mario to Jigglypuff > Mario
Jigglypuff = Peach to Jigglypuff > Peach
Jigglypuff >>> Yoshi to Jigglypuff >> Yoshi
Link > Y.Link to Link = Y.Link
Mario >> Mewtwo to Mario > Mewtwo
Mario >> Pikachu to Pikachu > Mario
Mario = Samus to Mario > Samus
Mario >> Y.Link to Mario > Y.Link
Marth > Jigglypuff to Marth = Jigglypuff
Marth >> Mario to Marth > Mario
Marth >> Yoshi to Marth > Yoshi
Mewtwo > Yoshi to Mewtwo = Yoshi
Peach >>> Yoshi to Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu >> Mewtwo to Pikachu > Mewtwo
Pikachu > Yoshi to Pikachu = Yoshi
Pikachu >> Zelda to Pikachu > Zelda
Sheik > Peach to Sheik = Peach
Y.Link >> Yoshi to Y.Link > Yoshi
Yoshi = Pichu to Yoshi >> Pichu
Yoshi = Roy to Yoshi > Roy
Mmm, I'm not sure if Sheik/Pika is as bad as >>>. One thing though is Mario >> Pikachu seems a bit funny. Would you consider Marth/Fox being equally difficult as Mario to face using Pikachu?
And can we still get some ideas about "Debating" stuff? =P
Bowser > Yoshi to Bowser = Yoshi
Doc = DK to Doc > DK
Doc >> Pikachu to Doc > Pikachu
Fox > Jigglypuff to Fox = Jigglypuff
Ganon >> Samus to Ganon > Samus
ICs = Doc to ICs > Doc
Mario = DK to Mario > DK
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco
Peach > Y.Link to Peach = Y.Link
Sheik >> Pikachu to Sheik >>> Pikachu
Yoshi > Kirby to Yoshi = Kirby
Debating:
Doc >> Kirby to Doc >>> Kirby
Doc >> Roy to Doc >>> Roy
Falco > Doc to Falco = Doc
Falco >>> Link to Falco >> Link
Falcon >>> Link to Falcon >> Link
Falcon >>> Kirby to Falcon >> Kirby
Fox > Doc to Fox = Doc
Fox >> Luigi to Fox > Luigi
Fox > Samus to Fox = Samus
Fox >> Y.Link to Fox >>> Y.Link
Ganon >>> Kirby to Ganon >> Kirby
Jigglypuff > Doc to Jigglypuff = Doc
Jigglypuff >> Luigi to Jigglypuff > Luigi
Jigglypuff >> Mario to Jigglypuff > Mario
Jigglypuff = Peach to Jigglypuff > Peach
Jigglypuff >>> Yoshi to Jigglypuff >> Yoshi
Link > Y.Link to Link = Y.Link
Mario >> Mewtwo to Mario > Mewtwo
Mario >> Pikachu to Pikachu > Mario
Mario = Samus to Mario > Samus
Mario >> Y.Link to Mario > Y.Link
Marth > Jigglypuff to Marth = Jigglypuff
Marth >> Mario to Marth > Mario
Marth >> Yoshi to Marth > Yoshi
Mewtwo > Yoshi to Mewtwo = Yoshi
Peach >>> Yoshi to Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu >> Mewtwo to Pikachu > Mewtwo
Pikachu > Yoshi to Pikachu = Yoshi
Pikachu >> Zelda to Pikachu > Zelda
Sheik > Peach to Sheik = Peach
Y.Link >> Yoshi to Y.Link > Yoshi
Yoshi = Pichu to Yoshi >> Pichu
Yoshi = Roy to Yoshi > Roy
Mmm, I'm not sure if Sheik/Pika is as bad as >>>. One thing though is Mario >> Pikachu seems a bit funny. Would you consider Marth/Fox being equally difficult as Mario to face using Pikachu?
And can we still get some ideas about "Debating" stuff? =P
`DNS`
Smash Lord
ahhh idk why i click this thread i hate it so much D:
N64
Smash Champion
Yes, relatively. Mario can chainthrow -> fsmash (or usmash if you refuse to DI away). He can CC->dsmash, jab->dsmash or grab. His utilt covers a lot of options, he can cape your recovery, his aerials do alright against you (though he should spend most of the time on the ground).
And pika can't combo him with anything notable. Mario indeed might be worse for pika than fox is.
And i'm still of the opinion that Doc >> Pika as well btw. All the reasons above, plus dthrow->fair at 90-120%ish. If their recoveries were better the Marios would be as bad if not worse than sheik.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
And 'mind explaining your thoughts on Zelda? I'd like to know what Zelda has against Pikachu, besides kicking. I'd also imagine Pikachu's USmash would be helpful with Zelda's lack of mobility.
D:
N64
Smash Champion
It's mostly the kick. If you hit zelda's shield with just about anything she gets to kick you. Pika has to get pretty close to his opponent to start anything, and he doesn't really have any safe approaches against her, so it's all about maneuvering around her and trying to catch her out of shield. Even then you can't do much more than 1-2 hits, zelda's too floaty for most combos.
Everything else you do well on pretty much. You're way more mobile than her, usmash is super scary (though again if she shields it's a free fair/bair oos), uair spikes can really hurt her linear recovery, etc.
Everything else you do well on pretty much. You're way more mobile than her, usmash is super scary (though again if she shields it's a free fair/bair oos), uair spikes can really hurt her linear recovery, etc.
unknown522
Some guy
yeah, her kicks are pretty devastating vs low tiers.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
kicks are devastating v all tiers
Alphicans
Smash Hero
That was a really weak post from Hugs. I am sure he has a lot more insight on the match-up, considering how long he's been around, and how great of a samus he has. He basically said nothing right there, and if he wasn't Hugs, that post would be worth nothing.
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
Agreed, you can't really breakdown a match-up with a vague post like that. Those rules USUALLY come into play in any match-up.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
How does the "they will trade" rule come into effect with terribly one-sided matchups?
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
Barring the terrible characters rarely seen at tournaments....
h!tboxexplo!ter
Smash Ace
sheik would have her own >>>> for some charaters but that wouldnt be very balanced. They know whats up tho. or down XD
Wait I'm reading this chart, my ideas on match ups are way off.
Are these match ups based on the metagame of character vs another character of equal skill? Or are both characters at their metagame? What's it based on?
Cuz I'd have Samus at a slight advantage vs Falco, Falcon, Peach, Doc
A slight disadvantage vs jiggs/ganon
And a disadvantage vs Marth/Sheik
So i mean, what are we going with?
Are these match ups based on the metagame of character vs another character of equal skill? Or are both characters at their metagame? What's it based on?
Cuz I'd have Samus at a slight advantage vs Falco, Falcon, Peach, Doc
A slight disadvantage vs jiggs/ganon
And a disadvantage vs Marth/Sheik
So i mean, what are we going with?
h!tboxexplo!ter
Smash Ace
Fletch
Smash Master
It's supposed to be both characters at the top of the metagame. Maybe you could write a more in-depth look into Samus's matchups?
I'll simply go by my experience on a few match ups before I have to head out again. People usually just chime in with "well it's HugS, not Samus, otherwise Samus gets *****" which is why I refrain from posting any kind of opinions I have on match ups.
Anyways.
I believe Samus has a slight advantage on Falco. It's so hard to describe why some matches are advantageous since there is so much that goes into a match. So in the interest of communication, I'll break the matchup down into 3 crucial categories:
1. Defense
2. Offense
3. Edge game
Samus effectively shuts down Falco's offensive game with her defensive game. I'll assume that the prevention of your opponent's offense is the main purpose of a good defense. Simply put, Samus's upB out of shield stops most any effective approach Falco has in any other match up. The Falco can only hope to be able to trick the samus into mis-timing or mis-using her upB. These are artificial ways of dealing with the situation IMO, as tricks run thin. You can play rock paper scissors with a good samus and hope she can't figure out when you're grabbing/attacking. Any attack will be beaten.
If you do manage to get that first hit in, Samus has her passive defense, which involves her inability to be combo'd very well. Not that it's flawless, but it helps make this portion of the match up go into her favor.
Defense Adavntage - Samus
Offense - Clearly, falco has a better offense. He can overwhelm most any character. Samus's offense isn't the greatest, but it's better than Falco's defense. And if Falco's Defense has 1 purpose, it's to stop Samus's offense, and it won't be able to do that. Missiles aid in the approach, and once Samus is in there, it becomes a matter of outranging Falco and being able to quickly switch to defensive mode if needed. The main factor that puts this slightly in Samus's favor (IMO) is falco's ability to be combo'd. Which means that Samus need break through falco's defense only once to possibly end his stock. And if the falco is camping, Samus can close in with missiles, break through lasers with a wavedash - tilt and catch falco only once to tie up the damage, or take the stock. This is all hard, mind you, which is why most people don't even consider this an advantage for Samus. Either way, it's only a slight advantage to either no matter how you look at it.
Offense - Slight Advantage for either Falco/Samus,
3. Edge Game - It's no surprise that falco has a shoddy recovery. It's also no surprise that Samus has one of the best. So this part of the Edgegame clearly goes to Samus.
As far as edgeguarding goes, that requires some analysis. I'd have to give Samus the advantage on this one. Samus has an amazing edgeguard coupled with the fact that Falco has a terrible recovery. Limiting his options is cake. If he side-B's, ftilt. If he up B's from below, utilt. If you don't know where he's going, shoot a missile/shot to make him go where you want, then commence with the process. Falco on the other hand, must keep track of all her options. First he must get rid of the grapple, then he must stop a sweet spot, which ain't gonna happen if the Samus sweetspots perfectly. And if the falco grabs the ledge, you should still have your jump to get in anyways. This on top of the fact that's there's no distance samus can't come back from means that Samus doesn't die from falco edgeguards.
3. Advantage - Samus
So I hope that helps explain why I feel Samus has the slight advantage over falco. I don't have more time to write about other characters atm. And I could probably delve into Samus vs Falco even more, but I think this is enough.
And FYI Fletch, your sig is dumb. You can employ patient thinking/predicting in checkers or chess, the main difference between the two games is the amount of options, and chess, like Melee, most definitely delivers more options.
Anyways.
I believe Samus has a slight advantage on Falco. It's so hard to describe why some matches are advantageous since there is so much that goes into a match. So in the interest of communication, I'll break the matchup down into 3 crucial categories:
1. Defense
2. Offense
3. Edge game
Samus effectively shuts down Falco's offensive game with her defensive game. I'll assume that the prevention of your opponent's offense is the main purpose of a good defense. Simply put, Samus's upB out of shield stops most any effective approach Falco has in any other match up. The Falco can only hope to be able to trick the samus into mis-timing or mis-using her upB. These are artificial ways of dealing with the situation IMO, as tricks run thin. You can play rock paper scissors with a good samus and hope she can't figure out when you're grabbing/attacking. Any attack will be beaten.
If you do manage to get that first hit in, Samus has her passive defense, which involves her inability to be combo'd very well. Not that it's flawless, but it helps make this portion of the match up go into her favor.
Defense Adavntage - Samus
Offense - Clearly, falco has a better offense. He can overwhelm most any character. Samus's offense isn't the greatest, but it's better than Falco's defense. And if Falco's Defense has 1 purpose, it's to stop Samus's offense, and it won't be able to do that. Missiles aid in the approach, and once Samus is in there, it becomes a matter of outranging Falco and being able to quickly switch to defensive mode if needed. The main factor that puts this slightly in Samus's favor (IMO) is falco's ability to be combo'd. Which means that Samus need break through falco's defense only once to possibly end his stock. And if the falco is camping, Samus can close in with missiles, break through lasers with a wavedash - tilt and catch falco only once to tie up the damage, or take the stock. This is all hard, mind you, which is why most people don't even consider this an advantage for Samus. Either way, it's only a slight advantage to either no matter how you look at it.
Offense - Slight Advantage for either Falco/Samus,
3. Edge Game - It's no surprise that falco has a shoddy recovery. It's also no surprise that Samus has one of the best. So this part of the Edgegame clearly goes to Samus.
As far as edgeguarding goes, that requires some analysis. I'd have to give Samus the advantage on this one. Samus has an amazing edgeguard coupled with the fact that Falco has a terrible recovery. Limiting his options is cake. If he side-B's, ftilt. If he up B's from below, utilt. If you don't know where he's going, shoot a missile/shot to make him go where you want, then commence with the process. Falco on the other hand, must keep track of all her options. First he must get rid of the grapple, then he must stop a sweet spot, which ain't gonna happen if the Samus sweetspots perfectly. And if the falco grabs the ledge, you should still have your jump to get in anyways. This on top of the fact that's there's no distance samus can't come back from means that Samus doesn't die from falco edgeguards.
3. Advantage - Samus
So I hope that helps explain why I feel Samus has the slight advantage over falco. I don't have more time to write about other characters atm. And I could probably delve into Samus vs Falco even more, but I think this is enough.
And FYI Fletch, your sig is dumb. You can employ patient thinking/predicting in checkers or chess, the main difference between the two games is the amount of options, and chess, like Melee, most definitely delivers more options.
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
it's not as bad as some people think....
Sheik is easy for him to combo and kill.
Also that match on Final, Stadium, and Cruise is not a cake walk.
Fletch
Smash Master
Thank you, agree totally. And I quoted that in my sig because it was so stupid, not because I agree with it haha.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Peach / Ice Climbers
Sheik / Falcon
Sheik is not easy to combo and kill for Falcon.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
i thinkk fox is the bessst character in the game and should win against eeeverybody
discuss
discuss
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
Up throw knee after 80% seems pretty easy, also punishing the landing lag of Vanish if by some chance he's hogging you....
Ice Climbers aren't too common, compared to the rest of the "upper class"
h!tboxexplo!ter
Smash Ace
1)its actually exactly as bad as everyone thinks.... both sides agree on the matter (roughy 70-30)
2)provided that he is not being combo'd, getting hit with needles, or being ftilted. we combo better and have a MUCH better defense vs his
3)final=25% chance..... to get techchased reallllllllly effortlessly
stadium= cp
cruise=cp (also i sincerely doubt this is good for falcon but w.e)
you actully forgot falcons best cp stage but u can figure that one out
thats a joke right?
congratulations falcon can punish, welcome to melee. most falcons cant even return after a sheik is edgeguarding them (can happen at stupid low %'s too)
Oh lol, my mistake. I didn't think a melee player in the melee discussion would be agreeing with it. haha.
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