Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[thefiction]

In regards to peach vs falco, I think the matchup is pretty even.

Peach can be really annoying against falcos with her dsmash of doom, combos, easy gimps/edgegaurds (pretty much the same thing against falco), etc., but falco is also quite a pain while using peach. Though falco cant combo her as well as other characters, he can still combo her a decent amount. Lasers are harder to hit with when peach is floating but they can still mess her up. they get her out of the air, retreating lasers hurt fair approaches, they make it harder to dash attack/grab without an fc aerial, and if they hit they can lead in to death at higher %s (dtilt/fsmash). He can also edgegaurd her pretty easily with bairs and dairs. Falco can also occasionally get gay shine-shine kills on small stages or even shine-shine-upb at stages like pokemon stadium at low percents.

If the falco is technically consistant, he doesnt really have to worry so much about peaches oos game which peach will spend plenty of time in on the ground due to lasers. If the falco is perfect with l-canceling then all peach can do oos is rolldodge which sucks. With good DI he can take minimal damage (20-30%) from dsmash + get out of dash attach and uair combo setups.

I think Peach=Falco is fine how it is and shouldnt be Peach>Falco

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

It does I think pichu can di out early though. It's not like sheik's where your F***ed. SOmething really gay that falcon can do but you don't see is he can grab pichu out of his SHFFLs it sucks so much.

haha. murdering low tiers since December 3, 2001. how may we serve you

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

take out "looks around" kirby wait to late he did it himself. yeah in truth I have always thought sheik effected the list more that anyone else. Keeps half the list from rising up. But yeah falcon>>pichu

 

[Fletch]

take out "looks around" kirby wait to late he did it himself. yeah in truth I have always thought sheik effected the list more that anyone else. Keeps half the list from rising up. But yeah falcon>>pichu

That's why I wish PAL was standard here. Not saying low tiers would be viable, but at least not completely **** out of luck like they are now because of Sheik's d-throw shenanigans.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm going pichu maybe this time I wi chain thrown then stock lol my grab outranges every single move you have and i'm not broke :D. It should be a freakin law pretty don't S*** on bottom/low tiers with chain throws when you are already winning(you are winning when you pick sheik).

I don't john but it is pretty bad that they get excited about grabs and want to get a grab as fast as they can and spend 60% of the time down-throwing. Also I hope pink reaper, KK,
h!tboxexplo!ter, or someone else tells me get used to it B****.

 

[Divinokage]

Get used to it, don't get grabbed! =P

I use Ganon vs Sheik, i know how it is.

 

[unknown522]

unknown's pichu jv 3 stocked my pika in a friendly.

I thought falcon has a legitimate chainthrow on pichu that ends in knee. I could be wrong.

lol, oh yeah!!!

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

meh... its not like you low tier if sheik can chaingrab u there are a few sheik cant do that to. sheik may have it (perhaps alot) easier, but think of the low tiers vs other high tiers. marth outranges basically all of them, fox and falco will just **** them like every other character. theyre all down there from a conglomerate gangbanging by the high tiers. and many of them just arent good. i read somewhere in here all the low tiers have something in common, none of them have good approaches against the higher tiers, so there might be that too.

 

[x After Dawn x]

In regards to peach vs falco, I think the matchup is pretty even.

Peach can be really annoying against falcos with her dsmash of doom, combos, easy gimps/edgegaurds (pretty much the same thing against falco), etc., but falco is also quite a pain while using peach. Though falco cant combo her as well as other characters, he can still combo her a decent amount. Lasers are harder to hit with when peach is floating but they can still mess her up. they get her out of the air, retreating lasers hurt fair approaches, they make it harder to dash attack/grab without an fc aerial, and if they hit they can lead in to death at higher %s (dtilt/fsmash). He can also edgegaurd her pretty easily with bairs and dairs. Falco can also occasionally get gay shine-shine kills on small stages or even shine-shine-upb at stages like pokemon stadium at low percents.

If the falco is technically consistant, he doesnt really have to worry so much about peaches oos game which peach will spend plenty of time in on the ground due to lasers. If the falco is perfect with l-canceling then all peach can do oos is rolldodge which sucks. With good DI he can take minimal damage (20-30%) from dsmash + get out of dash attach and uair combo setups.

I think Peach=Falco is fine how it is and shouldnt be Peach>Falco

peaches that don't know the matchup are going to be on the ground more because they can **** falco with combos once they get into him, but they also can get ***** by falco's laser game. a good peach will float high and approach and wait for him to do something. falco's laser game is pretty bad and the only time it seems to work is if the peach is approaching in a wrong way like with a low leveled fair or something, and falco catches her with a laser when she approaches down, which leads into things like fsmash, grab, dair, etc.

falco doesn't really combo peach unless she messes up or doesn't have DI. a run in dair and trying to pressure peach's shield is useless. peach does have up B oos which isn't nearly as good as marth's, but works. and if she rolls, it's not like falco can tech chase like marth, fox, and sheik can; he's too slow and he's probably just going to start SHL again.

in addition, peach ***** falco in terms of stage selection. falco has PS and yoshi's; peach has FD, dream land, kongo jungle 64, brinstar, and somewhat battlefield as it seems to be worse for falco than peach. maybe it would've been evenzies back when falco had corneria, green greens, and poke floats, but...he doesn't have as much now.

edit: falco's laser game is bad against peach, sorry for leaving that part out

 

[t3h Icy]

Debating:
Bowser > Yoshi to Bowser = Yoshi
Doc >> Kirby to Doc >>> Kirby
Doc > Link to Doc = Link
Doc >> Roy to Doc >>> Roy
Falco > Doc to Falco = Doc
Falco >>> Link to Falco >> Link
Falcon >>> Link to Falcon >> Link
Falcon >>> Kirby to Falcon >> Kirby
Fox > Doc to Fox = Doc
Fox >> Luigi to Fox > Luigi
Fox > Samus to Fox = Samus
Fox >> Y.Link to Fox >>> Y.Link
Ganon >>> Kirby to Ganon >> Kirby
Ganon >> Samus to Ganon > Samus
ICs >> Mario to ICs > Mario
Jigglypuff > Doc to Jigglypuff = Doc
Jigglypuff >> Luigi to Jigglypuff > Luigi
Jigglypuff >> Mario to Jigglypuff > Mario
Jigglypuff = Peach to Jigglypuff > Peach
Jigglypuff >>> Yoshi to Jigglypuff >> Yoshi
Link > Y.Link to Link = Y.Link
Mario = DK to Mario > DK
Mario >> Mewtwo to Mario > Mewtwo
Mario >> Pikachu to Pikachu > Mario
Mario = Samus to Mario > Samus
Mario >> Y.Link to Mario > Y.Link
Marth > Jigglypuff to Marth = Jigglypuff
Marth >> Mario to Marth > Mario
Marth >> Yoshi to Marth > Yoshi
Mewtwo > Yoshi to Mewtwo = Yoshi
Peach > Link to Peach = Link
Peach >>> Yoshi to Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu > Yoshi to Pikachu = Yoshi
Sheik > Peach to Sheik = Peach
Y.Link >> Yoshi to Y.Link > Yoshi
Yoshi = Pichu to Yoshi >> Pichu
Yoshi = Roy to Yoshi > Roy

I really want to clean up this mess of one-person opinions that nobody else cared about. =P

Also, Falcon>>Pichu, Peach>Falco and Sheik>>>Y.Link anyone? I agree with Sheik/Y.Link, and I don't know the other two.

 

[Nintendude]

Here's a few:

Bowser = Yoshi
Doc >>> Roy
Falco = Doc
Fox > Luigi
ICs > Mario
Mario > DK
Marth = Jigglypuff
Ganon > Samus
Peach > Link

 

[otg]

Here's a few:

Bowser = Yoshi
Doc >>> Roy
Falco = Doc
Fox > Luigi
ICs > Mario
Mario > DK
Marth = Jigglypuff
Ganon > Samus
Peach > Link

I'm going to have to disagree with Doc = Falco. **** is atleast <, most likely <<. Doc has a hard time from a neutral position to get in, and once he does his punish game is pretty subpar in comparison to what falco does to him. Falco's gay lol.

 

[x After Dawn x]

doc does pretty good against falco

from what I've seen, the doc mains say it's falco's advantage but the falco mains think it's like even

falco > doc seems okay

 

[otg]

I think that high level falco mains would agree that it's >>. I use both, I've played the matchup from both sides, it's very hard for doc.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think that high level falco mains would agree that it's >>.

I'm sorry but I just broke out into giggles.

 

[x After Dawn x]

what? so caping recoveries and comboing into bairs to edgeguard, and all as really effective edgeguarding options, chaingrabs, grab combos, and caping lasers is an easy matchup for falco?

>> is a solid convincing win, like a 65-35 to 75-25 advantage. doc doesn't even get owned by falco that badly as opposed to other >> matchups, like sheik vs ganon for example.

I don't think >> is THAT farfetched, but doc has a lot more tools against falco than a lot of other characters, or other characters vs non-falco characters in >> matchups.

 

[KirbyKaze]

After Dawn go back to talking about how Falco dies at like 50% from Link's Up+B no matter where he's hit on the stage or no matter how he DIs and how he can't sweetspot to avoid the Up+B, especially on stages like FoD, FD, or Yoshi's with nice walls to work with. Those posts were much funnier.

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol I never said any of that except that Falco dies at mid-high percent from Link's up B. =/

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol I Never Said Any Of That Except That Falco Dies At Mid-high Percent From Link's Up B. =/

link's Up B Destroys Falco More Than Any Other Move In This Game

no Joke, And Not Even Exaggerating, It Kills Him At Low Percent And Its Angle Is Worse Than A Shine Spike, And You Can Use It Oos As Well. And Unless It's Like At Really Low Percent, Falco Will Never Recover From It

yeah Pretty Much What Alphicans Said.

Also, Although It Doesn't Happen Often, If You Mess Up The Timing On Shield Pressure, you Get Punished By Up B Oos And It's Basically Stock Gone. Kinda Like Jiggs Capitalizing On A Spacie With Non-di'd Upthrow > Rest, Only It's Not As Hard To Pull Off And It's Not Necessarily A Kill At 10 %...

1234567890

 

[x After Dawn x]

oh **** maybe I was drunk when I posted that first thing LOL or i was trolling

second one makes sense though, I said it *wasn't* a kill at 10 %, but a rest can be

all I meant to say was that if it connects at like 100 % and you're at da edge of a stage, you're dead

 

[KirbyKaze]

You also said it's easier to hit than U-throw Rest and it's basically a stock gone. Link's Up+B is stupidly DIable.

Just shut up.

 

[x After Dawn x]

no lol I mean it's easier to hit if they mess up shield pressure.

and I dunno how you're supposed to DI and live if you're at 100-150 %, enlighten me on this?

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they fail shield pressure visibly, Rest OoS trumps both of those and I've seen Puffs do it so that argument fails anyway (unless you're going to tell me that Rest < Up+B). Also, if you're averaging 100-150% when you're dying, how is that "low percent"? Or "mid" percent?

 

[x After Dawn x]

it isn't low percent, that's what I was saying

and okay, say 70-80 %. how do you live through that if it connects at the edge of a stage?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well if we're going to get into messy "theory smash" situations, what if Falco does the unthinkable and doesn't mess up so horribly to allow a ****ing slow *** 10ish frame move to slip by? Or goes behind Link?

edit: In any event, if he was hit by it at the very edge of the stage, he would probably die. But if he was hit in the middle, he'd almost certainly live if he DI'd properly. And even at 70 - 80 he'd still probably have a reasonable shot of making it back on some stages.

 

[Rubyiris]

Falco and Doc is totally not even.

Definitely Falco's favor.

 

[x After Dawn x]

that works too, but you can also say that spacies that **** up shield pressure can DI the upthrow away. it's not even hard, but people still miss it.

edit: and yes, I am pretty sure I already posted it before but that doc matchup is not even, just don't know if I would agree with it being as bad as most other >> matchups.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I already addressed the u-throw rest crap by saying more Puffs are just resting spacies (specifically falco) out of botched pressure directly and forgoing the use of u-throw.

 

[otg]

I'm sorry but I just broke out into giggles.

lol, oh silly kk. I figured you would probably laugh at that. my opinion continues to change on things as I keep playing, sue me.

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol I lav this thread

stay tuned for something ridiculous that I may post on saturday that someone may take seriously

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I posted a little while back about how samus =/= fox. Fox definitely has a significant advantage.

Samus is like Marth without the grabs, combos, or the priority. Her only redeeming quality in this matchup is her cc ability (which at high levels is avoided), overall better recovery, and a better oos game. Using Fox = Marth as a standard, I'd definitely say that the matchup is Fox > Samus.

 

[unknown522]

lol After Dawn

 

[xbombr]

I posted a little while back about how samus =/= fox. Fox definitely has a significant advantage.

Samus is like Marth without the grabs, combos, or the priority. Her only redeeming quality in this matchup is her cc ability (which at high levels is avoided), overall better recovery, and a better oos game. Using Fox = Marth as a standard, I'd definitely say that the matchup is Fox > Samus.

Except that Samus is next to impossible to shine gimp, is harder to combo out of an upthrow (Marth is easy mode >_>), has a projectile game (Yes you can actually punish them for shining missiles), and can still edgegaurd the crap out of Fox (especially if he's above the stage trying to recover).

Samus CAN combo. >_>.... Definitely not as good as Marth does, but she has combos. She can get grabs as well. It's not easy, but if you do get one, you're guaranteed more % on top of the throw damage.

Samus plays this match up entirely different from Marth and he isn't a good benchmark for the judging the match up, imo. Samus has a much more defensive approach to this (and every) match up. Samus has a much easier time surviving against Fox than Marth does and has great punishment options.

Whether or not I think it's > or = is up in the air, but I could see it going either way. I just disagree with Marth being a benchmark.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

I posted a little while back about how samus =/= fox. Fox definitely has a significant advantage.

Samus is like Marth without the grabs, combos, or the priority. Her only redeeming quality in this matchup is her cc ability (which at high levels is avoided), overall better recovery, and a better oos game. Using Fox = Marth as a standard, I'd definitely say that the matchup is Fox > Samus.

samus also has no true spike, is a good bit slower, and lacks the same amount of decent killing power. however, i bet their grab range is the same >.>

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol, oh silly kk. I figured you would probably laugh at that. my opinion continues to change on things as I keep playing, sue me.

That's not why lol.

If Dogy didn't have 9001 posts I'd dredge up the ten or so that adequately sum up my opinion on why a crapton of Falcos think that Doc/Mario/Link/Luigi/Pikachu/DK/GaW/Bowser are okay against Falco but I don't really feel like doing it.

 

[Skler]

I thought Peach > Link and Doc > Link were pretty much universally accepted. I explained each one a while ago and nobody argues against it (except for saying, nuh uh, it isn't). People who don't give any reasons should be ignored.

Edit: If any Falcos think Link does ok against Falco they have no idea how to play the matchup at all. Pew pew pew beats 90% of Link's options.

 

[t3h Icy]

I thought Peach > Link and Doc > Link were pretty much universally accepted. I explained each one a while ago and nobody argues against it (except for saying, nuh uh, it isn't). People who don't give any reasons should be ignored.

Edit: If any Falcos think Link does ok against Falco they have no idea how to play the matchup at all. Pew pew pew beats 90% of Link's options.

They are (progressively); they've been going down. Also Falco>>>Link is going to stay unless another Link or top Falco says otherwise.

 

[otg]

That's not why lol.

Interesting, I'm curious as to why then.

I'd like to see which falcos think characters like G&W and DK do good against him. That really just blows my mind lol.

 

[xbombr]

samus also has no true spike, is a good bit slower, and lacks the same amount of decent killing power. however, i bet their grab range is the same >.>

Do you even have experience with the match up at all?

Same grab range? :embarrass

Samus =/= Marth

They play the match up completely differently, have totally different properties, and have totally different playstyles in general. Therefore Marth is a terrible benchmark. -.-

I've never played against Fox as Samus and thought "Wow that shine was gay, I wish I could Ken Combo this fool." :embarrass

Taking longer to kill doesn't necessarily make the match up bad when you have a superior defensive game and your entire style is based around camping and defense until you get them off the edge. Samus can edgeguard Fox really hard once he's offstage. You can seeker missile or uncharged shot him out of his firefox to knock him below the ledge, when he's down there you got ledgehopped NAir, uptilt, downangled fsmash, and even downangled Ftilt to edgegaurd if they're at an angle they can't sweetspot from. He's stupid if he phantasms above the stage. If you predict he'll be even with the ledge after your charge shot or missile you can grab the ledge so he'll die if he tries to phantasm or is forced to firefox, even if he falls below, you can just ledgehop Nair him out of his firefox. If he firefoxes even with the ledge you get to play the guessing game and cover one of his two options.

Samus has killing power. Marth has killing power. Can Samus kill Fox at 40% with a tipper on YS? No. Can Samus kill Fox at a relatively reasonable %? Yes.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox > Samus.

Samus has upb OoS and edge guards. Thats it.

Hmm i wonder who camps better, the character with missile cancels or the character that can shoot 2 lasers in 1 short hop and has the fastest running speed in the game.... Avoiding missiles is like avoiding falco's lasers.... except you can just attack through them. You don't even need to shine.

Fox has everything he normally has except you have to think a little bit with your uthrow uair. That leaves all your waveshine combos, bair having more priority than their moveset, a million recovery options, camp advantage, and CP advantages.