Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Nintendude]

Call me a devil's advocate, but...

...if Ice Climbers really DO destroy any character in the game from a grab, why SHOULD people stop saying, "If Ice Climbers get a grab, it's done." That seems kind of contradictory to me.

If a character has an advantage, they have an advantage. I can't see why you'd say that 0-death grabs aren't an advantage, unless you're assuming that people are saying grabs are the sole reason Ice Climbers have any advantages in any of their matchups (which may or may not be completely true).

But they DON'T destroy any character in the game in most cases. People just have no clue about Ice Climbers because there's like 3 reputable ones in the country. The ignorance that almost everyone has with this character is pathetic to be honest.

If you really think ICs destroy anyone from a grab then please enlighten me, because I really want to know how. Here's a simple one for you to explain: ICs grab Mario at 30%. Wobbling is banned. Go.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

w. Here's a simple one for you to explain: ICs grab Mario at 30%. Wobbling is banned. Go.

team mate falcon punches. did i win?

 

[unknown522]

I like to play vs jiggs as yoshi... it's defnitely one of the high/top tier matchups where yoshi can do reasonably good, mostly because of the range on upsmash and fsmash, ECE and DJC.

Here's the stuff I think is still a bit wrong on the chart (what it should be imo):

Marth > Yoshi
Jiggs > Yoshi
Peach >> Yoshi
IC's > Yoshi
Samus >> Yoshi
Pikachu = Yoshi
YL > Yoshi
Mewtwo = Yoshi
Yoshi > Bowser

Feel free to ask on any if them if you wonder why.

what kind of drugs are you on!?!

 

[Nintendude]

team mate falcon punches. did i win?

That wouldn't even kill lol

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

If you really think ICs destroy anyone from a grab then please enlighten me, because I really want to know how. Here's a simple one for you to explain: ICs grab Mario at 30%. Wobbling is banned. Go.

Pummel/Blizzard -> D/Fthrow Fair-> Sheild

MArio hits the ground from the Fair meteor while IC over where he landed in sheild. Two of his options are already covered as a getup attack AND a regular standup can both be countered with a sheildgrab and rolling can be reacted to with a WD OOS in that direction. The Blizzard in the grab tacks on like 10%, the headbutt deals 2-3%, Dthrow does 6 damage/Fthrow does 8-10, Fair adds another 12-14? So basically they go from 30% to 60% off of one manuever AND are in a very bad position. Not to mention that missing a tech means forced wakeups into more grabs/smashes.

It may not be as gay as wobbling but we still have more options out of grabs than any other char.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

That wouldn't even kill lol

moral victory

 

[Shiri]

can someone explain how Samus beats Yoshi so badly?

It's pretty terrible.

Her crouch keeps her on the ground until 60% without exceptions.

Her tilt game is ridiculous and is almost perfect against Yoshi. Her downsmash is a great counter out of crouch and spaces Yoshi perfectly on the ground since him taking to the air with Samus at a medium to low percent on the ground means he will suffer a guaranteed counter. Neutral air is so good against Yoshi, easily the best neutral air in the game against Yoshi, the range and power combination are almost artful. I could go on and on, but the general idea is that the arc of her moves along with their consistent base power combine with her crouch and aerial mobility to put up a veritable wall of death.

"Yoshi fighting Samus is like trying to beat a tank with plastic sporks from Taco Bell." ~Mow

The projectiles are the easy part, LOL.

 

[Nintendude]

Pummel/Blizzard -> D/Fthrow Fair-> Sheild

MArio hits the ground from the Fair meteor while IC over where he landed in sheild. Two of his options are already covered as a getup attack AND a regular standup can both be countered with a sheildgrab and rolling can be reacted to with a WD OOS in that direction. The Blizzard in the grab tacks on like 10%, the headbutt deals 2-3%, Dthrow does 6 damage/Fthrow does 8-10, Fair adds another 12-14? So basically they go from 30% to 60% off of one manuever AND are in a very bad position. Not to mention that missing a tech means forced wakeups into more grabs/smashes.

It may not be as gay as wobbling but we still have more options out of grabs than any other char.

Sounds nice but it doesn't work like that. First of all, blizzard gives them PLENTY of time to mash out. I only ever get away with blizzard during a grab when the opponent is already at kill %.

Second, the fair can be either meteor canceled or tech-rolled to avoid followups. You are stuck in your throw lag too long to chase them if they do either.

So, with your combo (which is actually what I usually attempt, minus the blizzard), you get like 20-25% at most. Wow, what a devastating "death grab" combo from the Ice Climbers.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I dislike dthrow -> fair and will usually use a grab on a character I can't reliably CG to put the other character above me, usually with dthrow -> usmash. If the other character starts DIing away to avoid follow-ups, I might mix in dthrow -> dair or something like that. The occasional dthrow -> reverse dair is also good for catching people off-guard.

Non-edge handoff variants are actually pretty decent, too. I think there's a 50% chance that Nana will fthrow or dthrow (I'm not sure if all of her throws are actually equiprobable), both of which allow Popo to re-grab, and you can often combo off her uthrow and bthrow.

Still, I agree that ICs' grab game is often grossly overrated.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sopo has some decent throw combos. Dthrow -> nair -> dsmash and dthrow -> dash attack -> uair -> bair. Uthrow is pretty **** on Fox and Falco, of course. And bthrow (and dthrow) tech chasing works really well. As Fox, I've been zero-to-deathed by Chu's Sopo purely tech chasing me with bthrow and dthrow over and over.

 

[Mind Trick]

what kind of drugs are you on!?!

Which do you not agree with?

 

[Nintendude]

Sopo has some decent throw combos. Dthrow -> nair -> dsmash and dthrow -> dash attack -> uair -> bair. Uthrow is pretty **** on Fox and Falco, of course. And bthrow (and dthrow) tech chasing works really well. As Fox, I've been zero-to-deathed by Chu's Sopo purely tech chasing me with bthrow and dthrow over and over.

D-throw to dash-A is pretty good but if they DI the throw towards you I can never get more than an up-smash or uair. Still though, doesn't everyone have good throw combos on Fox? My point isn't that their grab game is bad, it's just that it isn't the "grab = death" that everyone makes it out to be.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

chival is sopo solo popo?

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

yuh sopo = solo popo.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Sounds nice but it doesn't work like that. First of all, blizzard gives them PLENTY of time to mash out. I only ever get away with blizzard during a grab when the opponent is already at kill %.

I don't have frame data, but I'm pretty sure blizzard keeps them in the grab at reasonably low percents. In some versions of the game, it slows down your grab headbutts, but usually you can headbutt twice during the blizzard which should provide plenty of hitstun.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When the opponent is in hitstun, their control stick rotations are completely ignored and only 1 button press is accepted. Blizzard and headbutts should keep them in your grab long enough, the only downfall being that it gives them plenty of time to think and start mashing out for when it ends

 

[unknown522]

Which do you not agree with?

all of them.

 

[t3h Icy]

Some Agreement:
Doc = DK to Doc > DK
Doc >> Pikachu to Doc > Pikachu
Fox > Jigglypuff to Fox = Jigglypuff
ICs = Doc to ICs > Doc
Link > Y.Link to Link = Y.Link
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco
Peach > Y.Link to Peach = Y.Link
Yoshi > Kirby to Yoshi = Kirby

Debating:
Bowser > Yoshi to Bowser = Yoshi
Doc >> Kirby to Doc >>> Kirby
Doc > Link to Doc = Link
Doc >> Roy to Doc >>> Roy
Falco > Doc to Falco = Doc
Falco >>> Link to Falco >> Link
Falcon >>> Link to Falcon >> Link
Falcon >>> Kirby to Falcon >> Kirby
Fox > Doc to Fox = Doc
Fox >> Luigi to Fox > Luigi
Fox > Samus to Fox = Samus
Fox >> Y.Link to Fox >>> Y.Link
Ganon >>> Kirby to Ganon >> Kirby
Ganon >> Samus to Ganon > Samus
ICs >> Mario to ICs > Mario
Jigglypuff > Doc to Jigglypuff = Doc
Jigglypuff >> Luigi to Jigglypuff > Luigi
Jigglypuff >> Mario to Jigglypuff > Mario
Jigglypuff = Peach to Jigglypuff > Peach
Jigglypuff >>> Yoshi to Jigglypuff >> Yoshi
Mario = DK to Mario > DK
Mario >> Mewtwo to Mario > Mewtwo
Mario >> Pikachu to Pikachu > Mario
Mario = Samus to Mario > Samus
Mario >> Y.Link to Mario > Y.Link
Marth > Jigglypuff to Marth = Jigglypuff
Marth >> Mario to Marth > Mario
Marth >> Yoshi to Marth > Yoshi
Mewtwo > Yoshi to Mewtwo = Yoshi
Peach > Link to Peach = Link
Peach >>> Yoshi to Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu > Yoshi to Pikachu = Yoshi
Sheik > Peach to Sheik = Peach
Y.Link >> Yoshi to Y.Link > Yoshi
Yoshi = Pichu to Yoshi >> Pichu
Yoshi = Roy to Yoshi > Roy

Nice ICs discussion with multiple players, but I think (at least for Yoshi), that it's >> and everyone's agreeing with that.

Also, for any players that use high tiers, mind helping clean out the bottom section? =P

My opinions:

Fox > Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff > Peach
Jigglypuff >> Yoshi
Marth > Jigglypuff
Sheik > Peach (though I'm indecisive really)

 

[Skler]

Link loses to Young Link on the majority of stages. YL's mobile projectile spam is just too good for Link to avoid if there's enough space. The youngin' has better ways to combo off his bombs (which are far better than Link's) and his boomerang is much better suited for platforms and movement. He can even afford to use arrows! Link appears to have an advantage because he's better as a character but he lacks the tools to beat mobile spam that can be controlled.

There's no way in hell Link is even with Peach. Peach ruins his shield far too well and doesn't really care about the boomerang. She can float out of range of his best spacing moves if she knows what she's doing while still being untouchable by uairs. Link's sole advantage in this matchup is the bomb, and while it's a really good tool against Peach it isn't winning the match.

Peach can also edgeguard Link for maximum gayness.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Link loses to Young Link on the majority of stages. YL's mobile projectile spam is just too good for Link to avoid if there's enough space. The youngin' has better ways to combo off his bombs (which are far better than Link's) and his boomerang is much better suited for platforms and movement. He can even afford to use arrows! Link appears to have an advantage because he's better as a character but he lacks the tools to beat mobile spam that can be controlled.

There's no way in hell Link is even with Peach. Peach ruins his shield far too well and doesn't really care about the boomerang. She can float out of range of his best spacing moves if she knows what she's doing while still being untouchable by uairs. Link's sole advantage in this matchup is the bomb, and while it's a really good tool against Peach it isn't winning the match.

Peach can also edgeguard Link for maximum gayness.

omg ty. someone else shines some light on it.

edit: wait why is sheik>>>link but sheik>>y.l?
ylinks faster than link.. but sheiks a good bit faster still. chaingrabs still there, most projectiles are easily countered and i dont see how easy it would be for ylink to kill sheik she just out prioritizes everything

 

[ETWIST51294]

How about bair>everything Falcon has, Falcon gets comboed to hell, once you're off stage you're dead, dthrow knee can be rested if not done perfectly, we can't lazor camp and dair spam like Falco(theres no way Falcon does better against her than Falco), Falcon's game is based off of techchasing and punishing, you can't techchase her and she's pretty hard to punish, our only good approach(nair) is completely shut down, crouch resting grabs is so gay, and the only good things we have from mu is our mobility and uair combos.

I said when Falcon is off of the stage he's dead.

If you recover low the Jiggs player can purposely get hit by the Falcon Dive tech it and fair him before the lag of the Falcon Dive ends. ****s gay.

What about these teh Icy? It's not even...

 

[t3h Icy]

The images seem to not be appearing, so I re-uploaded them.

What about these teh Icy? It's not even...

No one else is really commenting on it, though as a Puff player, I'd lean on even (though I suck).

I'm keeping track of everything, no worries.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Looks at pichu's match-ups... walks away wtf it's near impossible to beat half the cast as pichu and the odds vs anyone esle keep going down.

 

[Divinokage]

Looks at pichu's match-ups... walks away wtf it's near impossible to beat half the cast as pichu and the odds vs anyone esle keep going down.

Yup no matter how hard you try, you can't make a character's potential better.

 

[t3h Icy]

Looks at pichu's match-ups... walks away wtf it's near impossible to beat half the cast as pichu and the odds vs anyone esle keep going down.

The only way you're winning with Pichu is if you are significantly smarter, more adaptive and more in control. That's not to say it's impossible, but Pichus aren't going to be beating top tiers without being a godlike player.

 

[Divinokage]

The only way you're winning with Pichu is if you are significantly smarter, more adaptive and more in control. That's not to say it's impossible, but Pichus aren't going to be beating top tiers without being a godlike player.

Lol I don't see that happening..

Meaning being better than everyone right now with a ****ty character? Hell no.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm not going to refer to anyone like axe or taj but playing theory bros. it's impossible for pichu to hit anyone or to have even an even match-up pichu will never hit anyone. No matter how hard you try or want to hit anyone you won't be able to. It's totally hopeless to try to be able to go ahead and try is nuts because you must know it's impossible. Oh well the machine keeps cranking endlessly. The flaw is the mind so it's not impossible nor will it ever be.

I just thought it was crazy that pichu vs mario or even falcon is near impossible. I can totally understand how people think fox, falco, Gannon and etc. are near impossible but really I just found it surprising. That's all but in theory bros that's 100% right. pichu topic/

 

[otg]

Do you actually believe pichu has ANY good matchups besides MAYBE kirby? I mean god ICG, you really are ****ing crazy

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

No, I am not scary not at the only thing to fear that is evil is the mind that God d***ed. I am afraid of the mind not fear.

I think pichu shouldn't be even no in theory. I haven't played kirby's so I would be a terrible person to ask. So I will just go theory. Also it's funny how I can crush myself and keep going full force answer how is be your own hero that inspires you.

Also unlike sane people I don't lie to myself tp feel better about something

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Lol I don't see that happening..

Meaning being better than everyone right now with a ****ty character? Hell no.

even then, if the pichu player has greater skill than his opponent its not an appropriate match up for this chart

 

[x After Dawn x]

pichu actually does decent against falcon

and by decent, I mean better than most of his other matchups vs the higher tiers

 

[ETWIST51294]

Pichus techs are horrible. Falcons good at techchasing.

hrrrrrrmmmmm.

Falcon>>>Pichu

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

falcon can running JC grab and cover 2 of pichu's tech options.

 

[otg]

Seriously like why are we still discussing pichu at all. I dont see how a single one of his matchups could be good outside of kirby which is probably even.

 

[ChivalRuse]

My Ice Climbers lost to ChRed's Pichu today. It was sad.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Pichu has the best tech in place with more inv. frames than everyone else that can help a little, also falcon can't really use nair are a few other moves because pichu is to short to hit. That's not that good of a reason pichu's techs are short as F*** so he is ***** to the near impossible to do anything level. Pichu can chain throw falcon get as good as falcon can chain throw him if not better, plus falcon won't be edge guarding pichu really. It's not a great match-up but falcon can't do some stuff and the fact pichu is also fast and gets smaller as he moves is hard to hit him with any air moves the best would be dair but pichu's up-smash beats falcon's dair and sets up things for pichu. Also falcon's techs aren't amazing and pichu can easily tech chase him also.

People are clearly not even looking at what pichu can do or even know what he can do its simple as that.

Chivalruse noooo you could have Down-smashed more you can freakin kill pichu in like 3 smashes

 

[Oracle]

ICG is right. Pichu actually does kind of well against falcon, as pichu's size and speed make it incredibly difficult to grab him. But once he gets that grab, Pichu loses a stock because of his awful techs.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

ICG is right.

I agree with you agreeing to me do you agree?

their grab games mess each other up just as bad. the biggest things on falcon's side I think are his knee and his weight. Also falcon has a harder than normal time SDIing out of pichu's F-smash edge guard.

 

[N64]

unknown's pichu jv 3 stocked my pika in a friendly.

I thought falcon has a legitimate chainthrow on pichu that ends in knee. I could be wrong.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

It does I think pichu can di out early though. It's not like sheik's where your F***ed. SOmething really gay that falcon can do but you don't see is he can grab pichu out of his SHFFLs it sucks so much.