Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Brookman]

if you're kidding mahone, then you're a true G. if you're just finding an opportunity to vent cause you got butt hurt by me then you're a true scrub.

 

[omgwtfToph]

i like how when he says it no one gets mad, but when i say it sveet rages. what the hell, guys.

yo, if it makes you feel better, im with you on what you said haha

double shining ***** what are you talking about

DOUBLE SHINING *****, TALKING ABOUT DOUBLE SHINING is a waste of time. I was referring to the latter

 

[Tomacawk]

Critique please!
Doubles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VGIK6hCpcY Grand Finals vs ORLY and Dart, part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQKdIucGpYg Grand Finals, part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Be5BeGicVI Winners Finals vs Dark Katma and Nuris, part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwFSDuKdxJ0 Winners Finals, part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QywLpj8aRnY Winners Bracket vs ORLY and Dart, part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRjGDq1PxCE Winners Bracket, part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHY6ecuuidI Pools vs Cosmo and KirkQ

Singles:
Coming when uploaded

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Im confident I got the momentum boost to happen with non-shine today. Marth's B moves may have a similar property.

 

[Mahone]

if you're kidding mahone, then you're a true G. if you're just finding an opportunity to vent cause you got butt hurt by me then you're a true scrub.

 

[Kanelol]

I suck against Samus. How do I kill the *****. U-throw U-air is hopeless, even with the worst DI ever they jump out :[

 

[EC_Joey]

It's better to pummel and throw them off the stage at med-high % than try for u-throw u-air. Or you can try to d-throw techchase up-smash.
1. Laser when they're far away.
2. When they get close you hit them with a quick aerial. Run away.
3. Step 1.
4. When you hit them off the stage you laser the **** out of them.
5. Hit them with stuff. Laser if they don't die from stuff.

Basically, hit and run tactics and lasers. When they're at killing % you either techchase into upsmash or dsmash, or keep hitting them off the stage with bairs and nairs. Tricking them into getting hit by a falling uair is nice too.

 

[Bullet Bill]

I have a few questions about fighting puff. Does upsmash go through any of jiggs aerials? I keep on thinking about this but I'm not sure. Also when generally are good times to upsmash in that matchup?

 

[EC_Joey]

I have a few questions about fighting puff. Does upsmash go through any of jiggs aerials? I keep on thinking about this but I'm not sure. Also when generally are good times to upsmash in that matchup?

Upsmash trades with pretty much all her aerials, unless they space bair properly.

Don't upsmash unless you're techchasing, or they do an aerial into you and you CC upsmash, or you KNOW that they're going to do an aerial and you want to trade for a kill. It leaves you too open if you whiff.

 

[FoxLisk]

spacing upsmash to trade with a buff aerial is quite difficult and will often get you punished. i think that in general upsmash is unecessarily risky. uthrow uair kills early, and if you miss the percents or your opponent SDIs well, bairs still kill puff early enough not to bother risking a lot of upsmashes.

so basically: good times to upsmash vs puff? there aren't many imo. after she rests or if you CC a nair or fair at low %.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Jab upsmash is good too, btw. At around 90%. I think it's worth fishing for (via run cancel jabs).

I STRONGLY prefer uthrow uair in that matchup though. At around 55% I stop EVERYTHING I'm doing and just dashdance, going for grabs. This has the added bonus of making Fox a ***** to hit, lol.

 

[FoxLisk]

Jab upsmash is good too, btw. At around 90%. I think it's worth fishing for (via run cancel jabs).

I STRONGLY prefer uthrow uair in that matchup though. At around 55% I stop EVERYTHING I'm doing and just dashdance, going for grabs. This has the added bonus of making Fox a ***** to hit, lol.

ah, true, i forgot about that because i always forget to go for jab usmash.

yeah depending on stage, i look for grabs at the lowest percent uthrow uair will kill. like if jiggs is at 80% on battlefield i wont shoot another laser so that uthrow uair can still combo. lots of people don't think about that.

someone should make a list of when uthrow uair kills (from stage, not platform) on each stage. anyone know? i know it doesn't on DL while it still combos.

 

[TemPesT-]

running shines are pretty **** in that match up too. you can just upsmash if they don't tech, or tech chase grab then upthrow upair. puffs tech seems really slow once you get used to it, so take advantage of it.

 

[JPOBS]

Real ballas powersheild upsmash vs jiggs.

more seriously though, Upsmash OoS is pretty safe vs jiggs on any of her aerials for 2 reasons:
1. either she doesnt space it perfect (aka doesnt start DI'ing away after the aerial) and get upsmashed
2. or she does space it really well and floats out of the upsmash range, but then shes too far o punish directly, and too slow to land anything that would hurt.

like, she cant Bair you sheild, avoid the upsmash, then run in a rest, jiggs is too **** slow. I pretty much upsmash everytime they touch my shield. At worst i get dash attacked (which i CC and upsmash like a pro)

lawl jiggs

 

[Mahone]

spacing upsmash to trade with a buff aerial is quite difficult and will often get you punished. i think that in general upsmash is unecessarily risky. uthrow uair kills early, and if you miss the percents or your opponent SDIs well, bairs still kill puff early enough not to bother risking a lot of upsmashes.

so basically: good times to upsmash vs puff? there aren't many imo. after she rests or if you CC a nair or fair at low %.

also, weak nair and bair combo into running upsmash, but people forget to do those most of the time, also, one cool thing i saw zhu do against hbox is just dashdance close to jiggs non stop until hbox got scared and rolled, and then he just running upsmashed cuz her roll sucks.

Also, if they miss a tech on a platform, drill reset -> upsmash

**** jealous?

 

[4 Aces]

Why are you asking "why not" like I know the answer?

yes, it would go against everything we think we know about aerial shines or whatever. so would the fact that you can doubleshine-waveshine characters like Falcon and Peach across flat land.

what does this tell us?

it tells us that we should STOP TALKING ABOUT DOUBLESHINES because its ****ing pointless OMFG

Because I thought you knew the answer (as in...you know more than me so I asked to understand...). Come on, you posted it; it's only natural that I'd think so.

I assumed you were thinking the same thing Gustav Wind was thinking. Then you posted the opposite of what he said, so I got confused. lol >.<

Can you elaborate on the second part? I didn't know that was possible (no seriously).

I don't see the problem in talking about double shines. Nothing wrong with trying to understand something. Besides, it'll blow over like every other topic (Read: Bair Shine lol).

 

[4 Aces]

I suck against Samus. How do I kill the *****. U-throw U-air is hopeless, even with the worst DI ever they jump out :[

Drillkick gets around her crouch cancel, so drill --> waveshine --> upsmash should work. Lol just another option.

spacing upsmash to trade with a buff aerial is quite difficult and will often get you punished. i think that in general upsmash is unecessarily risky. uthrow uair kills early, and if you miss the percents or your opponent SDIs well, bairs still kill puff early enough not to bother risking a lot of upsmashes.

so basically: good times to upsmash vs puff? there aren't many imo. after she rests or if you CC a nair or fair at low %.

I heard that Drill --> Upsmash works occasionally. Like as a mix-up. Idk how valid the combo is though. It's just that aerial --> shine doesn't really do that much against puff, so Upsmash or turn around uptilt is used more. At least from my understanding.

Real ballas powersheild upsmash vs jiggs.

more seriously though, Upsmash OoS is pretty safe vs jiggs on any of her aerials for 2 reasons:
1. either she doesnt space it perfect (aka doesnt start DI'ing away after the aerial) and get upsmashed
2. or she does space it really well and floats out of the upsmash range, but then shes too far o punish directly, and too slow to land anything that would hurt.

like, she cant Bair you sheild, avoid the upsmash, then run in a rest, jiggs is too **** slow. I pretty much upsmash everytime they touch my shield. At worst i get dash attacked (which i CC and upsmash like a pro)

lawl jiggs

I do this a good bunch. Doesn't seem like it works as well against Pound. Idk if it's too much shield stun or maybe I'm just fudging up.

also, weak nair and bair combo into running upsmash, but people forget to do those most of the time, also, one cool thing i saw zhu do against hbox is just dashdance close to jiggs non stop until hbox got scared and rolled, and then he just running upsmashed cuz her roll sucks.

Also, if they miss a tech on a platform, drill reset -> upsmash

**** jealous?

Lol pretty cool stuff. Do you suggest full jump weak nairs/bairs or short hop versions?

 

[Kanelol]

I'm still trying to find that Javi triple shine video

pretty sure it doesn't exist

but did anyone else know mexico had such **** smashers

 

[mers]

I'm still trying to find that Javi triple shine video

pretty sure it doesn't exist

but did anyone else know mexico had such **** smashers

I've definitely seen it. It was in a combo video that was full of doubleshines.

Edit:

Not the same thing, but similar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHktim9uriA#t=0m22s

 

[FoxLisk]

also, weak nair and bair combo into running upsmash, but people forget to do those most of the time, also, one cool thing i saw zhu do against hbox is just dashdance close to jiggs non stop until hbox got scared and rolled, and then he just running upsmashed cuz her roll sucks.

Also, if they miss a tech on a platform, drill reset -> upsmash

**** jealous?

weak nair is hard to land and weak bair is very nearly impossible to land, because jiggs is always throwing out hitboxes. but yes, they do combo. weak bair -> usmash combos around 70% iirc.

most people di drill reset too well to get usmashed, but i guess it's worth a shot.

edit: oh im pretty sure someone worked it out and drill -> usmash doesn't combo. if your opponent has gotten used to you drill grabbing he might spot dodge and eat an upsmash, but it's pretty risky. if he just gets scared and holds shield, you get grabbed. drill->grab does work a lot of the time, though, i recommend that.

 

[Mahone]

Here is the nair to upsmash thing, m2k does it quite a bit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDssoMxapGg#t=45s

Also here is zhu vs hbox, in my opinion, still the best vid of how to play this match up, the one before it is really good too, minus the comeback

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8WANUh3fDw


This is the drill reset i was talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8WANUh3fDw#t=1m45s
Actually, after talking to my friend, i think waveland on the platform and then react is better than this, cuz they can di the dair to get off the platform, but i dunno it might be a good gamble sometimes.

 

[unknown522]

Tomacawk, you're pretty good. I think this is the first time I've watched your matches (I forget).

I've never really given teams advice before, but your teammate had so many rest opportunities. Also, you guys should try to grab -> rest as much as possible. If they're above 40%, then you should hold them and make the jiggs rest them.

 

[Silent Wolf]

i made up triple shine like 3 years ago, just sayin

 

[Tomacawk]

Tomacawk, you're pretty good. I think this is the first time I've watched your matches (I forget).

I've never really given teams advice before, but your teammate had so many rest opportunities. Also, you guys should try to grab -> rest as much as possible. If they're above 40%, then you should hold them and make the jiggs rest them.

thanks. I have worked extremely hard on my game. There were a lot of times where he grabbed instead of me so we missed rest opportunities, and other times where I grabbed and threw too fast and began comboing because I didn't think he was ready. It was only our second time teaming--in the future we will be much more dominant

I'll link singles matches whenever they get posted.

 

[unknown522]

alright. Keep it up.

Also, grab -> u-smash is great too.

i made up triple shine like 3 years ago, just sayin

oh yeah? well I made up...........*sigh* nvm...

 

[Lovage]

Real ballas powersheild upsmash vs jiggs.

more seriously though, Upsmash OoS is pretty safe vs jiggs on any of her aerials for 2 reasons:
1. either she doesnt space it perfect (aka doesnt start DI'ing away after the aerial) and get upsmashed
2. or she does space it really well and floats out of the upsmash range, but then shes too far o punish directly, and too slow to land anything that would hurt.

like, she cant Bair you sheild, avoid the upsmash, then run in a rest, jiggs is too **** slow. I pretty much upsmash everytime they touch my shield. At worst i get dash attacked (which i CC and upsmash like a pro)

lawl jiggs

lol wtf O.o

lotsa really bad info here BEWARE

 

[KAOSTAR]

thanks lovage. ill avoid that ****

 

[omgwtfToph]

yea. AVOIDING COMMENCE

*avoids*


edit: its true though lol, usmash oos is never gonna work against puff >_>; and puff can like, rest you out of whiffed usmashes actually lol. just cuz whatever puff YOU'RE fighting doesn't do it doesn't mean puff can't

one thing that foxes should do more of is wavedash forward out of shield into like a jab or nair against puff's short hop bairs. not all the time, but sometimes. puff's bair has INCREDIBLE range but a lot of cooldown so you can sometimes sneak a jab in when puff is trying to pull out. idk ive seen mango's fox do it against hbox lol

2nd edit: ROFL lovage your sig *****

 

[unknown522]

toph is right tristian.

vs jiggs, u-smash is generally unsafe (for example if you watch the end of most m2k vs Hbox sets. You'll see that he gets desperate and throws out random u-smashes, and gets punished for them). The only time to use it, is if you're finishing a combo, or trying to beat/trade with aerials.

 

[KirbyKaze]

toph is right tristian.

vs jiggs, u-smash is generally unsafe (for example if you watch the end of most m2k vs Hbox sets. You'll see that he gets desperate and throws out random u-smashes, and gets punished for them). The only time to use it, is if you're finishing a combo, or trying to beat/trade with aerials.

Make sure you're not trying to trade with her Bair.

It's okay to tech chase with it I think if you land a Shine and they're too high for U-throw Uair or some ****, or they roll to the edge and therefore can avoid the U-throw --> aerial, but that would probably constitute comboing so whatever.

 

[unknown522]

yeah. Pretty much.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hey luke r u coming to smashing grounds next weekend? wanna do a MM?

 

[dashdancedan]

Hi, what do suggest for Falco laser camping under a platform on FoD or Battlefield?

 

[earla]

1. when wavedashing out of shine backwards, to follow up a successful shine is it better to
- shine reverse then wavedash?
or - shine, then wavedash backwards then pivot to follow up?

2. if you land a shine on someones shield then jump cancel sh nair/bair/dair. is the opponent locked in shield?

3. what is the best technique for 'shine aerials'..like shine bair? c stick for the aerial? how frame tight are they?

thanks

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

zhu back in like 2006 or 2007 told me to usmash out of shield against jiggs LOL

i doubt he remembers tho, and if he reads this he's probably gonna be like "**** i sucked back then"

 

[Jim Morrison]

http://www.mediafire.com/?6t16r3dp7gt2wbt

I am free

 

[omgwtfToph]

Usmash, by the way, has the same frame startup as a grab, so you can techchase with usmash any time you could techchase with a grab. Meaning, on reaction.

 

[Brookman]

1. when wavedashing out of shine backwards, to follow up a successful shine is it better to
- shine reverse then wavedash?
or - shine, then wavedash backwards then pivot to follow up?

2. if you land a shine on someones shield then jump cancel sh nair/bair/dair. is the opponent locked in shield?

3. what is the best technique for 'shine aerials'..like shine bair? c stick for the aerial? how frame tight are they?

thanks

1. I prefer to wavedash backwards out of the shine and then turn around into a dash. I feel like this is generally faster, if only just for myself.

2. If you land a shine on a shield and proceed to short hop nair/lcancel/shine/repeat/etc/ they are not locked inside their shield and are, in fact, quite capable of grabbing you or wavedashing out (or rolling out, which is something you should look forward to punishing)

3. If you're talking about hitting with the shine, then connecting an aerial just play falco .. . .. using the shine to turn around into an aerial is one thing. You're really not going to be able to be spoon fed since this is controller preference and completely up to you.

you have to learn the timings and become comfortable, with all the techniques you asked about. (1. waveshining 2. shffling into and out of the shine 3. shine turn around)

hope this helps.

 

[ZoSo]

I have a few questions about fighting puff. Does upsmash go through any of jiggs aerials? I keep on thinking about this but I'm not sure. Also when generally are good times to upsmash in that matchup?

Jab upsmash is good too, btw. At around 90%. I think it's worth fishing for (via run cancel jabs).

It works a little lower than 90%. I don't know exactly how much.

Vanz tried Puff against me when we played at a tourney last weekend. I killed him with jab usmash like three times in one match (he won the set though). I wouldn't recommend going for it that often since it makes you vulnerable to CC'ing, but it works fine as far as I can tell.

 

[omgwtfToph]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A93UUpcubfE#t=1m39s

also wd oos ftilt

ftilt comes out ridiculously fast so it makes sense haha

nair or jab if you can get away with it though