Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Lovage]

WTF nair works after uthrow??????

where would i be without the fox boards

 

[Brookman]

WTF nair works after uthrow??????

where would i be without the fox boards

I don't believe you.

 

[RaynEX]

If only uthrow -> usmash comboed on Sheik...

we'd never talk about comboing in that match-up again.

 

[Tomacawk]

man look at these pretty new moderators!
Raynex would you mind critiqueing my videos that I posted? Specifically, the singles matches?

 

[RaynEX]

Sure. I skimmed through the mm again Vro last night, so I'll finish looking at them tonight.

 

[Kanelol]

u-throw nair sucks


new mods ****

 

[unknown522]

WTF nair works after uthrow??????

where would i be without the fox boards

If only uthrow -> usmash comboed on Sheik...

we'd never talk about comboing in that match-up again.

you know what's really stupid about comboing her though?

Though you can do u-throw -> n-air -> u-tilt/smash/grab, if she's between 0-10% before the throw, she can DI down+away on your n-air, then CC the next move (even though she's still in the air). Re-grab is the best option, because if they DI right, then she can still CC the third move and punish you.

I would show you a vid, but whenever cool/gay stuff happens and I get it recorded, it never gets put up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You should Shine --> U-tilt if they get that super ridiculous DI

Not that I think you could like react to that in the heat of the moment but it would look really cool

 

[unknown522]

they're not grounded yet though. The shine is useless.

but anyways,

my previous critique post has been buried so here's the only two singles sets I got recorded:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29oDrL9AfM4 1$ Moneymatch with Vro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwVUeV1VHvc Pools match with Reneblade
I feel as if I played poorly against Reneblade--I have cannabis johns

vs Reneblade:

Yeah, you weren't kidding about playing bad in the first game. I can tell that you are better than this set. Many dropped combos and failed tech-chases. Mistakes with you movement. Also, between 20%-60%, you can CG falcon if he DIs your u-throw.

Game 1:

0:30 - try not to shine on his shield after high aerials. It could cost you a stock. Just DD, or move away from him.

0:38 - you could've n-air'd him after he threw out that knee.

0:52 - You could've dash attacked, or f-tilted him since he was falling for the ledge. If he reacted, he would be forced to up-b early, but you'll have enough time to edgeguard anyway.

1:01 - you should stand closer to the edge, to try and make your opponent feel pressure. Go close, but try to stay outside of his u-air range, then react from there. If he decides to go low, then run down and shine him. Alternitavely, you could try to take the ledge and abuse invincibility.

1:22 - just b-air. Though you missed, you could've JC u-smashed/grabbed for the kill anyway.

1:44 - You shined after whiffing a n-air. That stuff is important vs falcon. Mis-placing a shine an potentially cost you a whole stock. Even if you hit the n-air, a shine wouldn't have been a good choice anyway.

2:00 - careful. He jumped in the air before you did. You should've waited longer, or you could try to u-smash through his n-air.

2:32 - good.

2:41 - in this situation, you probably should have jumped away from/over him.

3:10 - good.

3:16 - bad edgeguard. You could've b-air'd, or even just let him go through with the up-b. Don't try to shine him out of it. The grab hitbox is really stupid. Sometimes it's even bad to contest it with moves, since grabs have priority over attacks. You have to space around the hitbox, especially if you want to shine him out of it. Pretty much, go for his head.

3:20 - I'm pretty sure u-smash would've killed, but I would've b-air'd him off the stage.

3:30 - probably trying to shine OoS.

3:58 - wow. Just wow.

Game 2:

5:10 - could've b-air'd him.

5:39 - turnaround f-tilt.

5:48 - IMO, it would've been better to f-throw him after the waveshine. Still, the best option was to d-smash there. If you wanted to be gimmicky, you could've done d-throw as well.

5:55 - I'm stealing that.

Not really much to say for the rest of the match. You did your thing, and it was working out. You could work on precision a bit I guess.

7:29 - airdodge past him. Or even come from under the stage. Use the stage to your advantage.



vs vro:

 

[KirbyKaze]

You should ask Magus about your air crouch cancel theory

 

[mastermoo420]

Air crouch-cancel should work, shouldn't it? I mean, the way it works is that the ASDI just sends you to the ground, IIRC. Unless the ASDI isn't enough to bring you down.

 

[Winston]

Yeah, I've seen air-ASDI down happen a lot.

 

[Tomacawk]

Thanks Unknown. You bring up a good point about waveshine dsmash and recovering under kongo, I really never use either of these two tactics and they're mad broken. Up Bing from under the center of Kongo is one of the safest recoveries fox has, imo
I can't wait for your comments on my cash battle with vro. I'm surprised I beat him; he is probably the better player.

 

[JPOBS]

i've been wondering

so I know the shine cant be CC'd. that is, the hitstun remains the same, but they go shorter blah blah im not worried aout that

what i wanna kno tho is, can the next move after a waveshine be true/fake CC'd?

lets say u opt not to grab marth and instead nair him after waveshine, can he CC grab you after the nair after the waveshine by asdi down?

im wondering cuz i wanna know if stuff like waveshine->reverse uptilt always launches, and waveshne->nair wot get "cc" *****. i know shine cant be crouch cancelled really but im wonderign about the move after shine if it not upsmash/grab

 

[omgwtfToph]

Ok ok, I have some Fox **** that will REVOLUTIONIZE FOX FOREVER. I will make a video on this later. You need a few people for this.

Start a game with 3 Foxes on one team, and Peach alone on the other team, turn friendly fire OFF, and go to FD (Probably works on other stages, but haven't tested). Put 2 Foxes at both edges of the stage, facing inward, and have them spam lasers. Nothing special happens right? Peach is taking a lot of damage. Ok, great.

Now have the 3rd Fox, who is doing nothing, start to waveshine Peach across the stage, and WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.

I have no explanation for why this could possibly happen, but the two Foxes shooting lasers will be pushed backwards gently and fall off the ledge while still shooting their lasers. For no apparent reason. And they will ONLY be pushed backwards if the third Fox continues to waveshine Peach.

Melee is a bizarre game.


@JPOBS: You should probably try to test this yourself, because I don't know off the top of my head, but I think you can still get CC grabbed in that situation.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i have a feeling that if i test this i'm gonna feel like an idiot

 

[JPOBS]

@JPOBS: You should probably try to test this yourself, because I don't know off the top of my head, but I think you can still get CC grabbed in that situation.

yea i've done it lots of times on opponents and waveshine uptilt for example has always launched in my experience, but i just wanted to be sure that it wasnt simple mistakes on my opponents part.

 

[Tomacawk]

If they CC the shine they can CC the next move. I know this because there are many times in fox dittos where I shine approach successfully and it gets CCd. I then jab out of habit after the shine, which also gets CCd, and then I get punished.
also a cool thing i've done in this same situation is waveshine jab ^2 beacuse they keep CCing
looks really dope

 

[TemPesT-]

ya im pretty sure most fox players have done that before to other stubborn spacey's trying to get their own shine off.

 

[FoxLisk]

no

you guys

CC means two things because no one knew the difference back when things got named, or something.

you cannot true CC out of a waveshine, because to truly crouch cancel, you have to be, well, crouching.

however, you can get a limited CC-style effect from just ASDI down, which of course you can enter at any point, so you can get that effect out of a waveshine.

so like, marth will be able to CC **** your waveshine - nair, but only at low percents. much lower than he would be able to CC **** a nair if he were actually crouching.

 

[Tomacawk]

I'm talking about when they're CCing before they get hit by the first shine. They stay true CCing until you hit them with something that can't be CCed.

 

[mastermoo420]

General question that I'm asking here just because:

Besides regular DI, does smash DI help recovery? Like, does the perpendicular-smash DI do the thing where you drastically reduce your knockback? Like, you know what I'm talking about... You're Fox and you u-smash the opponent at a HIGH percentage and then, for whatever reason, you see the other person survive with MUCH less knockback than they should have received.

 

[Tomacawk]

It helps a little bit by giving you more room until you hit the blast zones.
Here's an example from one of my old matches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABd1vC-tW5E#t=2m22s
if you pause at 2:24 you can see that it made quite a different in the amount of room I moved (look at the green hit of the knee, and notice that I'm entirely behind ripple)

 

[mastermoo420]

Hmm that wasn't really what I was looking for. I was thinking of when KB is reduced like crazy. Anybody know what I'm talking about? D: And it's not CC, btw... D:

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It is a CC

 

[mastermoo420]

Even when they're shot straight up by, like, u-smash at high %s ?_?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yes, if they CC they will have reduced knockback.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Surviving the usmash at high %s with drastically reduced knockback is a CC yeah.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I guess you can't CC while in shine hitstun, otherwise people would always survive Fox's waveshine -> up-smash.

 

[mastermoo420]

oh WTF I thought CC was useless at high %s and when you get hit straight up. Okay, I gotta incorporate this into my game more. gogogo double-stick DI.

 

[unknown522]

You should ask Magus about your air crouch cancel theory

magus hasn't responded about my question about hitstun yet.

Thanks Unknown. You bring up a good point about waveshine dsmash and recovering under kongo, I really never use either of these two tactics and they're mad broken. Up Bing from under the center of Kongo is one of the safest recoveries fox has, imo
I can't wait for your comments on my cash battle with vro. I'm surprised I beat him; he is probably the better player.

I would've posted it sooner, but my internet failed last night, so I kept it on a word document.


anyways, vs vro game 1:

0:06 - that ws a free grab.

0:10 - 0:55 - you miss a lot of moves and are really hesitant to attack. Sometimes you have to force the openings (Basically, apply pressure sometimes). Also, try to get behind falcon when putting pressure on him. He can't really do much once you pin him down. Also if you mess up while you're behind him, you're at less risk. Also, b-air is amazing vs falcon. If you're having trouble getting in, then try spacing b-airs on him sometimes. Don't full hop them though, that's just asking to get grabbed.

0:58 - you could've u-smashed on his missed tech.

1:06 - Messed up that free grab.

1:07 - You had another free hit, but messed up.

1:35 - I dunno why he approached you at the wall. That was the worst choice possible. He should've at least been trying to poke at you with d-airs if he wanted to appraoch. lol

1:51 - second u-tilt.

2:17 - u-tilt. Then follow up. Also, you could've JC u-smashed on his missed tech again. If you want to be safe, then you could DC shine to wake him up and/or push him to the edge. Or shine -> u-smash.

2:26 - another free grab, or even a cross up n-air, so that you could pressure him while he's shielding.

2:35 - good.

2:45 - try not to go autopilot. You could've dropped through and b-air'd him, after realizing that your u-air didn't get him. After that, he u-smashed your shield. You could've b-air'd him when you dropped off.

2:53 - way too obvious on that recovery. Fortunately, you made it back though.

3:09 - you got read pretty hard. Be careful with your decisions.

3:17 - you could've went under him and attacked. Falcon's d-air is slow, so he can't really cover under himself too well if you're fast enough.

3:18 - b-air.

3:40 - easy u-tilt.

3:42 - shield grab/u-smash OoS. He came down with a high weak knee on your shield.

4:39 - full hop approaches are bad.


Game 2:

5:20 - good. I think you could've done more with it, but you got some pretty good damage.

5:33 - you approached with DC shine while he was in the air........

5:36 - tech roll away. He was charging d-smash before you had teched.

5:43 - You just sat there after he did that slow getup attack. Then he full hopped and you still did nothing. B-air.

6:01 - With an u-air, that could've been his stock.

6:07 - Sometimes it's not a bad idea to shield his n-airs. Judge if he's too close for you to avoid it or not.

6:50 - Waveshine after that n-air.

- For the rest of the match, you start getting your moves in and being a bit more aggressive. His DI gets a lot worse, so it worked out.

Game 3:

- I don't really know what to say about this match. You both are playing much better that in the other 2 games.

11:14 - d-smash/f-throw after the waveshine. Falcon's recovery sucks, so you can get some easy gimps.


I want you to do something for me the next time you play a serious match vs someone: Check your hit percentage. Since you don't laser at all, I think you will have around 30%. I find that whenever I lose matches to good players, mine is around 40-45%. When I win matches, it's usually between 50-65%. Even with lasering and throwing out random shines. Most other foxes I have ever asked on average have 25-35%.

If they CC the shine they can CC the next move. I know this because there are many times in fox dittos where I shine approach successfully and it gets CCd. I then jab out of habit after the shine, which also gets CCd, and then I get punished.
also a cool thing i've done in this same situation is waveshine jab ^2 beacuse they keep CCing
looks really dope

if you're fast enough, they can't CC the next hit. If they did, then that means you didn't combo it.

 

[PK Webb]

magus hasn't responded about my question about hitstun yet.

I would've posted it sooner, but my internet failed last night, so I kept it on a word document.


anyways, vs vro game 1:

0:06 - that ws a free grab.

0:10 - 0:55 - you miss a lot of moves and are really hesitant to attack. Sometimes you have to force the openings (Basically, apply pressure sometimes). Also, try to get behind falcon when putting pressure on him. He can't really do much once you pin him down. Also if you mess up while you're behind him, you're at less risk. Also, b-air is amazing vs falcon. If you're having trouble getting in, then try spacing b-airs on him sometimes. Don't full hop them though, that's just asking to get grabbed.

0:58 - you could've u-smashed on his missed tech.

1:06 - Messed up that free grab.

1:07 - You had another free hit, but messed up.

1:35 - I dunno why he approached you at the wall. That was the worst choice possible. He should've at least been trying to poke at you with d-airs if he wanted to appraoch. lol

1:51 - second u-tilt.

2:17 - u-tilt. Then follow up. Also, you could've JC u-smashed on his missed tech again. If you want to be safe, then you could DC shine to wake him up and/or push him to the edge. Or shine -> u-smash.

2:26 - another free grab, or even a cross up n-air, so that you could pressure him while he's shielding.

2:35 - good.

2:45 - try not to go autopilot. You could've dropped through and b-air'd him, after realizing that your u-air didn't get him. After that, he u-smashed your shield. You could've b-air'd him when you dropped off.

2:53 - way too obvious on that recovery. Fortunately, you made it back though.

3:09 - you got read pretty hard. Be careful with your decisions.

3:17 - you could've went under him and attacked. Falcon's d-air is slow, so he can't really cover under himself too well if you're fast enough.

3:18 - b-air.

3:40 - easy u-tilt.

3:42 - shield grab/u-smash OoS. He came down with a high weak knee on your shield.

4:39 - full hop approaches are bad.


Game 2:

5:20 - good. I think you could've done more with it, but you got some pretty good damage.

5:33 - you approached with DC shine while he was in the air........

5:36 - tech roll away. He was charging d-smash before you had teched.

5:43 - You just sat there after he did that slow getup attack. Then he full hopped and you still did nothing. B-air.

6:01 - With an u-air, that could've been his stock.

6:07 - Sometimes it's not a bad idea to shield his n-airs. Judge if he's too close for you to avoid it or not.

6:50 - Waveshine after that n-air.

- For the rest of the match, you start getting your moves in and being a bit more aggressive. His DI gets a lot worse, so it worked out.

Game 3:

- I don't really know what to say about this match. You both are playing much better that in the other 2 games.

11:14 - d-smash/f-throw after the waveshine. Falcon's recovery sucks, so you can get some easy gimps.


I want you to do something for me the next time you play a serious match vs someone: Check your hit percentage. Since you don't laser at all, I think you will have around 30%. I find that whenever I lose matches to good players, mine is around 40-45%. When I win matches, it's usually between 50-65%. Even with lasering and throwing out random shines. Most other foxes I have ever asked on average have 25-35%.


if you're fast enough, they can't CC the next hit. If they did, then that means you didn't combo it.

this dude is a critque deity

 

[unknown522]

it's alright I guess.

 

[Tomacawk]

i love you

 

[unknown522]

I'm just so lovable

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

and u like twewy?

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Alot of good **** coming from the unknown lol

 

[omgwtfToph]

I guess you can't CC while in shine hitstun, otherwise people would always survive Fox's waveshine -> up-smash.

OH YEAH that makes sense

I think shine (get's "fake" CC'd) into nair can't ever be CC grabbed then.

The more I think about it, if an opponent is crouch canceling and you hit them with a drill or something, you usually get a true combo and your opponent can't CC.

Anyway I bought a capture card and cables to record this weekend. :D Because I never quite reach the recording rounds in tournament, I'm gonna try to record some friendlies with good players and put them up sometime soon.


Edit: Update after some testing. This is pretty weird.

Say your opponent is a Marth trying to CC grab you.

If you drill the Marth, then shine, the shine gets the full knockback - it's as if the Marth never CC'd in the first place. So you can run and grab him as normal, and uthrow to whatever. BUT if you try to nair him, EVEN THOUGH it's like he didn't CC your shine, he can CC the nair, and proceed to grab you or whatever.

It's really weird. "Breaking" his CC with a dair only lasts until you hit with a move that can be truly CC'd (no flinch animation) - once this happens, he can CC your attack and punish you.

Same goes for Falco. Falco's dair on Peach combos into shine, but the shine won't launch at 0% - it'll ground her.

Also, waveshine utilt will not launch if the opponent holds down. I tried. If your opponents always seem to get launched by waveshine utilt, then they probably stopped trying to CC once you started waveshining, which is logical, maybe they were trying to SDI out or something.

So, you CAN CC while in shine hitstun, but only if you were CCing at the beginning of the combo. Whether or not the move at the beginning of the combo was a move that can be truly CC'd.

Lastly, TWEWY *****.

 

[Sinji]

Im have trouble getting out of falco's combos. can anyone help me? My vids

GF: Sinji vs Cross 1-3http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ELq52LCeKE

GF: Sinji vs Cross 4-5http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrxWP0Wt8eM&feature=related

 

[mastermoo420]

I didn't watch (because I personally have the same problem), but I have some thoughts which people can expand upon. You basically just have to vary everything up as much as you can to trick them while they shield pressure. Light-shield is also good, too.

Also, combos by Falco on Fox are basically auto-combos so you can really only rely on DI, AFAIK. LumpyCPU once said that the Fox-Falco match-up is 60:60, and I personally think that it's kinda 60:55 in Fox's favour because both of them have the tools to completely **** each other, but I feel like Fox has a bit more.