Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[FoxLisk]

yeah, i saw m2k using wd oos ftilt in that set he wont against hbox, too. someting to look into.

 

[Tomacawk]

Hey luke r u coming to smashing grounds next weekend? wanna do a MM?

nope. Nobody from STL is interested so I cannot grab a ride
I have a pretty nasty homework load right now, anyway
but I would totally MM you if I could go =P

 

[Jim Morrison]

yeah, i saw m2k using wd oos ftilt in that set he wont against hbox, too. someting to look into.

wd oos ftilt isnt as good, if you can do that you probably have better options. i mean, might as well shine oos?

 

[PK Webb]

Tryna learn up throw double shine....only 1 shine hits but I get both shines out and my feet never leave the floor so am I doin it to early???

 

[KAOSTAR]

wd oos ftilt isnt as good, if you can do that you probably have better options. i mean, might as well shine oos?

there is a range factor.

I think people were talking about catching the end of a puff bair.

lol, cuz m2k must be doing it wrong.

 

[FoxLisk]

Tryna learn up throw double shine....only 1 shine hits but I get both shines out and my feet never leave the floor so am I doin it to early???

yup. just wait til more of fox/falco is inside your hitbox.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Can someone explain why its much easier to shine spike falco/fox's up-B with aerial shine than grounded shine?

 

[Kanelol]

Can someone explain why its much easier to shine spike falco/fox's up-B with aerial shine than grounded shine?

it really shouldn't be

except for some weird hitbox thing involving the bottom of the shine

but that seems unlikely, probably all in your head bro

 

[mers]

I agree, it definitely shouldn't be, but I find the same thing to be true. I always assume its just a lot harder for me to time when we're both moving than when I'm stationary, but IDK if that makes sense.

 

[JPOBS]

for the record i was talking about vs her aerials and that being the case...

puff's bair has INCREDIBLE range but a lot of cooldown

this is what i was trying to say why she cant do much about it even if it misses.

but lovage could u elaborate?

 

[omgwtfToph]

for the record i was talking about vs her aerials and that being the case...this is what i was trying to say why she cant do much about it even if it misses.

but lovage could u elaborate?

i already elaborated for him. jigglypuff CAN do a lot to you if you whiff a laggy move like usmash

 

[JPOBS]

but in the same post u said bair has a lot of cooldown.

so essentially you're saying she's going to bair (high cooldown lag), drift away (more space in between the two of you so upsmash whiffs) then get back fast enough to rest you....

 

[dashdancedan]

Hi again, what do suggest for Falco laser camping under a platform on FoD or Battlefield?

 

[ZoSo]

Theorycraft aside, the point is that it's a bad idea to throw out highly punishable moves against a characters who can punish so harshly.

Also, usmash can be rested on block. It sucks.

 

[Sinji]

Is shine> to back air good against marth? any advice.

 

[voorhese]

im assuming you mean shine > back air?

and it really is just for show, maybe 1 situation it is good (still prolly not the best option)

up throw - > back airs is a thing ive noticed a lot of foxes do that im starting to do, a lot of time you can combo with bairs/nairs and uptilts or something...still working on it

 

[ZoSo]

Shine > bair is pretty DI dependant, requires tricky execution, and doesn't have great payoff. I can't think of any reason why it would be "good" against Marth in particular. But if you see an opening and feel like showing off, go for it.

Uthrow > bair is so good. It's amazing if your opponent anticipates an uair and tries to SDI in the direction you baired them for auto bad DI.

 

[Kanelol]

U-throw --> bair *****

U-throw --> shine bair ***** even harder, but is really just useful if you wanna be a flashy douche

U-throw --> juke --> shine turn around bair is the rapest, mindgame their DI super hard

 

[omgwtfToph]

Hi again, what do suggest for Falco laser camping under a platform on FoD or Battlefield?

Dance around on the platforms above Falco. Poke in from above with shine -> waveland onto platform (difficult to punish) and aerials that land behind Falco. In essence, play the platform game. :D

Remember that Falco doesn't have amazing coverage of platforms above him like, say, Marth... and exploit that.

Shine waveland has the added benefit of knocking down Falco, which means you can start fighting to gain an advantage.

You're good at shield dropping iirc, right? This might be a good time to use dashdance -> shield drop, although I don't/can't shield drop so that part is just theory. But it sounds good in my head.

but in the same post u said bair has a lot of cooldown.

so essentially you're saying she's going to bair (high cooldown lag), drift away (more space in between the two of you so upsmash whiffs) then get back fast enough to rest you....

Wavedash out of shield into nair or jab or something, what I recommended, are fast, unpunishable options.

Usmash out of shield will almost always whiff (no Puff worth their salt is going to frequently mis-space aerials against your shield), and is laggy enough that Jigglypuff will have a frame advantage and, AT BEST, you will be stuck in your shield for Jigglypuff to resume pressure, and at worst you are getting grabbed or baired or something. I mean, Puff bair is slow, but not THAT slow.


Oh yeah, and not only can usmash be rested on block, usmash can ALWAYS be rested on block. It's that bad. ANY usmash you throw out that Puff shields, can be rested oos on reaction, regardless of spacing.

 

[KAOSTAR]

but in the same post u said bair has a lot of cooldown.

so essentially you're saying she's going to bair (high cooldown lag), drift away (more space in between the two of you so upsmash whiffs) then get back fast enough to rest you....

yea bair has long cool down. but so does up smash, and its much easier to punish.

basically you won't catch puff often but like toph said she will tap that *** if you miss.

 

[mastermoo420]

up throw - > back airs is a thing ive noticed a lot of foxes do that im starting to do, a lot of time you can combo with bairs/nairs and uptilts or something...still working on it

I've done these a lot, too, since before I had trouble connecting with u-throw > u-air. It still works pretty decent, and, on maps with ******** ceilings like Dreamland, the b-air can be a good/better option. 8D

 

[Tomacawk]

my previous critique post has been buried so here's the only two singles sets I got recorded:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29oDrL9AfM4 1$ Moneymatch with Vro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwVUeV1VHvc Pools match with Reneblade
I feel as if I played poorly against Reneblade--I have cannabis johns

 

[Silk]

lol wtf O.o

lotsa really bad info here BEWARE

All I gotta say is having a quote from 'The Wire' in your sig is ****ing legit, one of the best shows ever

I have a few questions about fighting puff. Does upsmash go through any of jiggs aerials? I keep on thinking about this but I'm not sure. Also when generally are good times to upsmash in that matchup?

Here's where I begin to confuse myself (I'm not too knowledgeable on game mechanics lol), because of some people's tendency to discuss "this arial's priority vs. that" when I've just figured it was how it is explained on the SW:

Different rules apply to the hitboxes of normal aerial attacks. When a normal aerial attack hitbox overlaps that of a normal ground attack or another normal aerial, the attacks cannot collide or clash and the law of high and low priority does not apply. If an overlap between the hitboxes of two such attacks occurs, both will persist, irrespective of each other, and will damage their foes if they contact them.

So for your question, doesn't it just matter if Fox's u-smash comes out first?

 

[EC_Joey]

my previous critique post has been buried so here's the only two singles sets I got recorded:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29oDrL9AfM4 1$ Moneymatch with Vro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwVUeV1VHvc Pools match with Reneblade
I feel as if I played poorly against Reneblade--I have cannabis johns

I watched the mm with Vro. The whole first match it looked like you had no idea what you were doing lol. Then halfway through the second match you just went beast mode.

I would just say work on your approaches, since Vro seemed to be punishing you pretty badly for misspaced grabs and shines. Spacing short hop nair to shine should be second nature.

Also, work on keeping your combos going by predicting and reacting (didn't seem to have a problem with this towards the end of game 2), and edgeguarding Falcon with bairs as well as shine.

 

[JPOBS]

What do you do, or what can you do when u grab sheik at super low percent and upthrow but they get nice DI on it? like here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7QoolsTvho
edit:
its t 5:17, sorry i forget how to link directly to it, tried #t=_m_s but that didnt work

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I think you can nair sheik when she does that



edit: wait, maybe not, i dunno

 

[EWC]

I think that if you're quick you can do a shffl nair and hit sheik if she Di's. That should be able to combo into another grab or an uptilt.

I'm not sure thought; At 0% she might be able to jump out. If that's the case, then it turns into a mixup between nair (beats sheik if she does a falling aerial) and full jump uair (to catch her out of a jump).

 

[Lovage]

don't nair her at super low percent she'll hit you after

crossing past her with a bair is usually pretty good, it might miss sometimes but you wou't get hit for it

you can also try dashing towards her and then dashing back, and she might nair or fair at you, then grab her when she lands. (u can try usmash too if ur a baller)

 

[Brookman]

honestly, I'm going to just say the same thing I have always felt:

get off the boards and go play (good) people.

 

[unknown522]

What do you do, or what can you do when u grab sheik at super low percent and upthrow but they get nice DI on it? like here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7QoolsTvho
edit:
its t 5:17, sorry i forget how to link directly to it, tried #t=_m_s but that didnt work

don't nair her at super low percent she'll hit you after

crossing past her with a bair is usually pretty good, it might miss sometimes but you wou't get hit for it

you can also try dashing towards her and then dashing back, and she might nair or fair at you, then grab her when she lands. (u can try usmash too if ur a baller)

you can combo n-air -> u-tilt/re-grab if she DIs the throw in either direction.

My staple thing vs sheik is:

1. if she DIs the throw: n-air -> u-tilt x2 (if they don't DI, then x3) -> b-air. Then react to the situation

2. if no DI: u-tilt x2/x3 -> re-grab -> u-air x2. Then react to the situation.

I hope that my MMs vs tope will be put up some time soon. The first MM was pretty close. The second one was ****. According to blunted object, I made him look like a noob apparently.

 

[Brookman]

hey unkown, we should play.

 

[PK Webb]

when jiggs u throws when do i press left or right.......right b4 she throws or a little bit after???

 

[JPOBS]

upthrow is incredibly fast. do it before

 

[KirbyKaze]

u-throw nair u-tilt vs di

if you're baller or lazy you can try u-smash and trade with the weak aerial and then cancel the lag and get a **** combo

you can also nair u-smash sometimes

bair is useless at low percents, just nair combo because it's at least like 30x better UNLESS YOU'RE NEAR THE EDGE and you can maybe combo the shine and gimp her or get a free setup or shine through her aerial if you're amazing

 

[Tomacawk]

you can also nair u-smash sometimes

as in, sheik at 0% getting caught by the usmash after nair? Is this one of those "doesn't combo but is so close to a combo that they don't get out" kind of combos?
That sounds ****ing sweet.

 

[unknown522]

hey unkown, we should play.

definitely. It's been a long time.

when jiggs u throws when do i press left or right.......right b4 she throws or a little bit after???

before.

as in, sheik at 0% getting caught by the usmash after nair? Is this one of those "doesn't combo but is so close to a combo that they don't get out" kind of combos?
That sounds ****ing sweet.

yeah, it's pretty gay if you clip their jump.

 

[Brookman]

I love clipping jumps. Esp. through aerials like KK mentioned somewhere.

What do you guys think of m2k's wavelanding @ apex????

Also, up throw > up air on puff, GG or not??

has anyone been following the slow decline of neutral and counter pick stages???*

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Can you give an example of his wavelanding? That's sort of vague

uthrow uair works on puff. its just got sort of goofy timing (at least in my opinion)

 

[RaynEX]

Waveshining in place is one of those things that's bad if you always assume your opponent will expect it and counter it perfectly. It can be pretty good if you hit the back of their shield. A lot of people will try to roll from that position and waveshining in place puts you in a position to easily punish them. I certainly wouldn't make it my primary means of shield pressure, though.

Daniel, remember that you don't necessarily have to hit them to put pressure on them. Dash dancing, empty short hops, and even standing right behind them can all be very intimidating. The important thing is that you understand how your opponent is affected by everything you do. Also, it's important to be able to recognize when you should just grab.

I can't believe I missed this earlier. GREAT post Zoso; that second paragraph in particular caught my attention. More emphasis should be put on understanding the relationship between the moves you make (or don't make, as in Zoso's example) and your opponent's subsequent decisions. Simply standing right next to them will produce a reaction.

What do you do, or what can you do when u grab sheik at super low percent and upthrow but they get nice DI on it? like here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7QoolsTvho
edit:
its t 5:17, sorry i forget how to link directly to it, tried #t=_m_s but that didnt work

Ryan already offered great advice. My belief is that planning combos in melee is not always necessary - but staples do come in handy. From a successful nair (which can be connected on both left/right d.i.) you can utilt OR re-grab as Unknown said. With no d.i., utilt at 0 is a true combo in training mode, so stick to that. If you're having difficulty hitting Sheik with your nair, just practice with a friend until your mind registers how to move out of Fox's uthrow quickly enough.

I'll try to add some things I've had success with while playing Kirbykaze over the years.

Great alternatives to Sheik's d.i. behind that I incorporate:

Disclaimer: Neither of these examples are guaranteed, and rely heavily on good judgment and a bit of risk . If you can make good, educated reads, the payoff is usually better than that of a staple combo.

-Turnaround usmash. Remember, this isn't a combo. Sheik will have her back turned after d.i.ing behind you (and thus will attempt a bair if she decides to attack). If you turn around, take a step forward and usmash, you'll hit her and trade. The weak bair brings you back to neutral stance and allows you to follow with another move. I've RARELY lost the usmash/bair trade in this situation, so I'd recommend r you try your luck with it.

-Pay close attention to your opponent's tendencies during the match. If you can classify them as a "jumper" early on, you can attempt some relatively low risk combo starters. Walk forward and wait after the uthrow, and fullhop auto-cancel bair or FH nair FF if you see her double jump. With no jump for Sheik to work with, you can let your combos flow from there.


Here are Unknown's useful suggestions once again:

you can combo n-air -> u-tilt/re-grab if she DIs the throw in either direction.

My staple thing vs sheik is:

1. if she DIs the throw: n-air -> u-tilt x2 (if they don't DI, then x3) -> b-air. Then react to the situation

2. if no DI: u-tilt x2/x3 -> re-grab -> u-air x2. Then react to the situation.

Can you give an example of his wavelanding? That's sort of vague

uthrow uair works on puff. its just got sort of goofy timing (at least in my opinion)

Jungle are you a mod of a character board? I hadn't realized they made you one too.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I mod melee discussion :3