Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[mastermoo420]

No, we've been over this; the first shine, when grounded, will send them off-stage at the usual downwards and away angle. If the first shine is done in the air, it will maintain some of the momentum from the throw. The second shine, when done in the air, will also carry some of the momentum from the first shine. One shine cuts it, but two is cooler, and it's DEADLIER

 

[voorhese]

@4 aces, i beleive so...on a side note idk if im going to keep playing
im getting so frustrated trying to play with other controllers (mine broke)

i think imma take it apart and hopefully it fixes itself >_<

other than that i seriously am getting to the point where i want to break every single controller i try to play with, over a kittens head

 

[Sinji]

Thats what happened to me three months ago. I felt like breaking my controller.

 

[mastermoo420]

LOL your controller broke so you felt like breaking it?

 

[voorhese]

LOL your controller broke so you felt like breaking it?

no breakin other controllers, that i tried playing with

 

[KAOSTAR]

idk what I would do if mine broke. id be devastated lol.

its almost perfect. only flaw is the stick wiggles just a tad.

and I guess l still clicks. but I only use it for auxiliary shield tactics, not blocking l canceling or wd.

 

[4 Aces]

No, we've been over this; the first shine, when grounded, will send them off-stage at the usual downwards and away angle. If the first shine is done in the air, it will maintain some of the momentum from the throw. The second shine, when done in the air, will also carry some of the momentum from the first shine. One shine cuts it, but two is cooler, and it's DEADLIER

I'm having a hard time visualizing this. :/ I guess I'm gonna have to test it, because I don't get how "maintain some of the momentum from the throw" looks like.

So it's better to jump into a shine after a throw? Also, doesn't shining with the top of the shine make them go in a sort of arc motion? Or is that when they're grounded and REALLY close to you?

@4 aces, i beleive so...on a side note idk if im going to keep playing
im getting so frustrated trying to play with other controllers (mine broke)

i think imma take it apart and hopefully it fixes itself >_<

other than that i seriously am getting to the point where i want to break every single controller i try to play with, over a kittens head

I know how you feel. My controllers are getting f***ed up, and any other controller I play with just kinda doesn't cut it (and they inevitably break...). Wish Nintendo would rerelease the gamecube controllers. Not a brand new kind, but reproduce the same ones they used to.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Another thing I wanna share, since apparently a lot of people didn't know about this (I just told SFAT about it, and he's a very solid Fox).

When you're aiming Firefox (or Firebird with Falco) downward toward the ledge, to sweetspot it, you don't have to worry about letting go of the "down" direction if you only hold the stick GENTLY down (the same kind of "gently" that lets you do an utilt without jumping off the ground). So if you're in your Firefox right next to the ledge, and you're worried about the timing of having to aim the Firefox downwards, then immediately let go, don't worry - just aim it where you want to, but only hold the stick gently.

If you're not holding down "hard," you won't fly past the ledge.

 

[Winston]

I'm having a hard time visualizing this. :/ I guess I'm gonna have to test it, because I don't get how "maintain some of the momentum from the throw" looks like.

So it's better to jump into a shine after a throw? Also, doesn't shining with the top of the shine make them go in a sort of arc motion? Or is that when they're grounded and REALLY close to you?

When you doubleshine, the second one is an aerial shine, so it keeps some of the momentum from the first shine. (Even if you do a doubleshine perfectly, the second shine is still in the air).

If you aren't gonna doubleshine though its better still do to a grounded shine so you can wavedash out of it.

(I wish I never mentioned the air/ground shine stuff since its pretty much never relevant. The important part is that a doubleshine sends them farther than a single shine.)

reference:

the start of this match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4nWF5r5VI0

 

[mastermoo420]

@4 Aces:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsMK-TJuRIg

Winston actually posted the link itself, lol. But I think the main thing to get from this video regarding the current topic is simply the aerial shine; you can visibly see how the momentum does stack especially when you see the last aerial shine where the Bowser is sent right by the shine yet the momentum in the opposite direction from the red shell persists. P:

 

[4 Aces]

When you doubleshine, the second one is an aerial shine, so it keeps some of the momentum from the first shine. (Even if you do a doubleshine perfectly, the second shine is still in the air).

If you aren't gonna doubleshine though its better still do to a grounded shine so you can wavedash out of it.

(I wish I never mentioned the air/ground shine stuff since its pretty much never relevant. The important part is that a doubleshine sends them farther than a single shine.)

reference:

the start of this match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4nWF5r5VI0

Ah, yes. I forgot about the bolded. If I do decide to double shine would it technically be better to have both of them be aerial ones or one grounded, one aerial? Theoretically speaking? (of course it'll hardly matter in a match, but for the sake of understanding...)

Yeah, I've seen that video a million times. lol I used to always assume that double shines were just for style points. Gotta test single shines then compare it to this. My eyes aren't all that used to the differences (yet).

@4 Aces:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsMK-TJuRIg

Winston actually posted the link itself, lol. But I think the main thing to get from this video regarding the current topic is simply the aerial shine; you can visibly see how the momentum does stack especially when you see the last aerial shine where the Bowser is sent right by the shine yet the momentum in the opposite direction from the red shell persists. P:

Thanks. That's a really informative video.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

can anyone test a few things on double shines for me? i have a theory of why the double shine has a sharper angle and speed, but if i'm right the actual hitstun should be the same as if only one shine hit.

In real life physics, when you apply a force to an object it moves based on the direction of the force and the amount of force applied. When you apply two of the same forces in the same direction it goes twice as far with the same angle. The game's physics engine is modeled off the real world, and the same thing is happening here.

Because the force of the first shine is still active when the second hits, it is essentially doubling the force applied. The developers knew adding hitstun from previous moves would pretty much break the game, they decided the hitstun wouldn't be added relative to the previous value but instead calculated and then override the old amount of hitstun.

Also, if this is correct, and if someone took the time to do this, it could be shown that the actual knockback angle of the second shine doesn't change but that the knockback (distance) from the second shine is doubled.

 

[omgwtfToph]

No, that doesn't make any sense, and an easy example is Fox's dair. If you connect with a multi-hit Fox dair in midair, the opponent does NOT go flying downward at breakneck speeds from all the dair hits connecting and adding up their force vectors.

Also, note that you can "save" someone from getting rested by jabbing them out of their flight path. See: "How good is Zelgadis?"

As a general rule, if your speculation involves the words "real life physics", you can probably stop there.

 

[Winston]

^ Most moves work like that, but for some reason the shines seem to work differently.

Falco's doubleshine also has more knockback also I think, which is why the doubleshine gimp off the top of Yoshi's Story works.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

except every game engine is based on real physics in one way or another, but you did get me there, toph.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Lol, just saying, there's a difference between being BASED off of real physics, and making in-depth speculations about the way certain in-game mechanics work off of how the real world works.

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic in my last post lol, didn't mean to like offend you or whatever.


i usually type like this when im remotely close to trying to sound sarcastic or snarky lol

 

[JPOBS]

someone needs to figure this ish out cuz im having a hard time believing shine has an exclusive quality of stacking knockback that no other move in the game has.

 

[Tomacawk]

Didn't this already get solved? If your second shine is in the air you get more knockback...

 

[JPOBS]

so why cant u just jump single shine for extra knockback?

playing the devils advocate here

 

[Tomacawk]

you can. you just have to shine twice quickly.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Luke, supposedly every move in the game overrides the previous move's knockback & trajectory. If you jumped and then shined, why is the knockback any different if you hit with a shine before that or not?

i agree with JPOBS, i have a hard time believing that the shine has a unique property in this situation.

and yeah, toph, i didnt take it that way. i dont mind being wrong if im wrong lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

falco doesn't have set kb on his shine.

double shining is
a-hitting at higher percents
b-hitting with the top of the shine.

not to mention the only times you go flying are from missing the tech and getting shined or hit with some attack that deals 6 or less.

an alternative theory-maybe di stacks. if you sdi and get hit again b4 the end of hit lag maybe it just sends you further. im pretty sure this is a no go but it was a quick thought.

you can wave double shine falcon. he doesn't fall from from the shine and there is no stack.

probably just some angle ish and the fact that they are in the air.

 

[FoxLisk]

yo. guys. here's all you need to know:

double shine works better, so ****ing do it.

got it?

 

[Jim Morrison]

no thats a lie u dickwad

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What if we figured out a new property of the physics engine? we might find a way to do some super team combo.

 

[Tomacawk]

I think it has something to do with this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsMK-TJuRIg

some moves seem to be affected by existing momentum; aerial shine is one of them

Maybe I don't understand, but isn't this the answer to what you guys keep asking?
I don't see the relevance of why it works, sans curiosity...if it works, it works.

 

[FoxLisk]

What if we figured out a new property of the physics engine? we might find a way to do some super team combo.

go do the research then. asking questions about it and everyone saying 'hmmm i dunno' and proposing their random theories for half the posts in this thread isn't helping anyone. go make it its own thread or something. this thread has been cluttered with posts asking why it matters for the past like 20 pages and i'm tired of it because it's not getting anyone anywhere.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Rage more foxlisk. I'm talking about a video game. You're reading a web site about a video game. You can go **** a donkey kong if you think i give a **** about what you want to read.

that said, discussing theories is the best way for me to logic through the "why". You can observe that a rock falls at 9.8m/s or you can figure out that the rock falls at 9.8m/s because the earth's gravity pulls on it and that the same thing might be true for many other things.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Stop talking about doubleshining lol

 

[voorhese]

yeah, its all about triple shining

 

[omgwtfToph]

there's actually a crazy video somewhere on youtube where Javi (the mexican twin dude) does uthrow triple shine on a falco and gimps it o_O it was tight lol. I didn't think it was possible

btw the falling speed is no different from a doubleshine

 

[4 Aces]

there's actually a crazy video somewhere on youtube where Javi (the mexican twin dude) does uthrow triple shine on a falco and gimps it o_O it was tight lol. I didn't think it was possible

btw the falling speed is no different from a doubleshine

Why not? Wouldn't that go against everything we just said about aerial shines keep the momentum of the previous hit?

 

[Kanelol]

Why not? Wouldn't that go against everything we just said about aerial shines keep the momentum of the previous hit?

i thought momentum was sort of a "Last hit is all that counts" type thing

I've seen people get saved from rests by jabs or wayward F smashes plenty of times

EDIT: wow i just watched that video

that's ****ing weird

someone track down Magus

 

[KAOSTAR]

i thought momentum was sort of a "Last hit is all that counts" type thing

I've seen people get saved from rests by jabs or wayward F smashes plenty of times

EDIT: wow i just watched that video

that's ****ing weird

someone track down Magus

ur so late dude.

like dam son.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Why not? Wouldn't that go against everything we just said about aerial shines keep the momentum of the previous hit?

Why are you asking "why not" like I know the answer?

yes, it would go against everything we think we know about aerial shines or whatever. so would the fact that you can doubleshine-waveshine characters like Falcon and Peach across flat land.

what does this tell us?

it tells us that we should STOP TALKING ABOUT DOUBLESHINES because its ****ing pointless OMFG

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

double shining ***** what are you talking about

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

Didn't this already get solved? If your second shine is in the air you get more knockback...

i thought this was why/ what do you think of this theory?

I think it's because the initial shine has a slight downwards momentum. And when you double shine, part of the momentum from the initial shine is preserved.

It's sort of how you put Sheik at a wildly different angle with Falco's Shine --> Bair than if you straight up Baired.

 

[FoxLisk]

Why are you asking "why not" like I know the answer?

yes, it would go against everything we think we know about aerial shines or whatever. so would the fact that you can doubleshine-waveshine characters like Falcon and Peach across flat land.

what does this tell us?

it tells us that we should STOP TALKING ABOUT DOUBLESHINES because its ****ing pointless OMFG

i like how when he says it no one gets mad, but when i say it sveet rages. what the hell, guys.

Rage more foxlisk. I'm talking about a video game. You're reading a web site about a video game. You can go **** a donkey kong if you think i give a **** about what you want to read.

edit because Sveet, you're being an ***, and i want to own you: things don't 'fall' at 9.8m/s, they accelerate at 9.8m/s^2. they're only at 9.8m/s after falling for 1 second (assuming they were released from rest). and melee doesn't have to have consistent rules so that's a ******** metaphor anyway.

 

[Brookman]

I'm sooo bad vs. marth. oh my god.

 

[Mahone]

Rage more foxlisk. I'm talking about a video game. You're reading a web site about a video game. You can go **** a donkey kong if you think i give a **** about what you want to read.

that said, discussing theories is the best way for me to logic through the "why". You can observe that a rock falls at 9.8m/s or you can figure out that the rock falls at 9.8m/s because the earth's gravity pulls on it and that the same thing might be true for many other things.

What the **** is wrong with you? Just because something is about smash doesn't mean its worth talking about. If every time you visited this thread people were arguing about how many lasers fox can shoot off stage on different stages before dying are you seriously telling me you wouldn't get the slightest bit annoyed?

Also, don't blanket statement stuff like earth's gravity.

The precise strength of the Earth's gravity varies depending on location. The nominal "average" value at the Earth's surface, known as standard gravity is, by definition, 9.80665 m/s2 (32.1740 ft/s2). This quantity is denoted variously as gn, ge (though this sometimes means the normal equatorial value on Earth, 9.78033 m/s2), g0, gee, or simply g (which is also used for the variable local value). The symbol g should not be confused with g, the abbreviation for gram (which is not italicized).

I'm sooo bad vs. marth. oh my god.

No Johns - EVER, Scrub.