Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Fortress | Sveet]

i just dont want some new foxes to think they can get away with spamming nair-shine on a shield thinking they cant get grabbed when there is always a frame hole somewhere.

on a related note i recently taught a falco player that falco's dair-shine has horrible frame holes... idk how he didnt know that since hes been playing since like 07 loool

 

[MarsFool!]

You grabbed me?!?!

When will people learn to pressure the back of someones shield or just run away...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

when will people learn that grabbing out of shield is a mediocre/poor option

 

[mastermoo420]

@earla: Make sure your techskill is consistent. Also, I would say that making sure you get deep inside their shield is best for dair or landing behind with either (behind would be best, probably). Behind gets you out of their shieldgrab.

For dair, get in there deep ( >_> ) because you can't really space it so that the dair hits but you're out of shieldgrab range. You might as well make sure your shine can connect. For your nair, you can get deep in their shield for the same reason as using the shine, but you might be able to use aerial control to get out of shieldgrab range. Not sure.

i think the real reason is that just nobody's tried it yet

whenever i get shine grabbed i'm super surprised

it's a good-*** mixup, whether or not it's guaranteed

*shrug*

That's why I also like drill > grab. :D They're basically the same thing, though.

 

[Sinji]

Drill>grab can do serious **** to your percentage.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

which will let you keep moving faster after falco shoots a laser at you:

shielding and then wd oos or something asap after you block the laser?

or

take the hit and keep going?

 

[voorhese]

which will let you keep moving faster after falco shoots a laser at you:

shielding and then wd oos or something asap after you block the laser?

or

take the hit and keep going?

if its a power shield that is the best of those 2, i think just a WD oos is good to (if its not a power shield)

 

[SSSnake]

which will let you keep moving faster after falco shoots a laser at you:

shielding and then wd oos or something asap after you block the laser?

or

take the hit and keep going?

you could jump.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

i know about jumping. im assuming im gunna get hit by a laser sometime.

and voorhese didnt answer the question either really. he just said wd oos or powershied was good, but is it faster?

 

[PK Webb]

powersheild is faster

 

[dashdancedan]

which will let you keep moving faster after falco shoots a laser at you:

shielding and then wd oos or something asap after you block the laser?

or

take the hit and keep going?

Depends on the situation. Is Falco mid close or far range? Is Falco trying to laser dair, laser grab, or laser shine, or laser bait you?

Your goal is to not get hit by lasers, but if you Falco is trying to laser grab you, you can cc shine, or shield sidestep... Just an example of one option.

You shouldn't really try to think of "what's the fastest way out of laser stun" you should be thinking "what is he trying to do and how can I beat it/predict him/start a combo"

 

[EWC]

If you want to get horizontal movement after the laser, then your fastest option is to powershield to wavedash oos. Next fastest is to CC and then dash right away. Taking the hit without crouching, and shielding without PSing are about equally fast.


If you want to do an attack right after the laser, then it's faster to shield the laser for things like grab/uppsmash/aerials that you can do out of a jump, but in all other situations it's faster to take the hit.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

powershield->WD is the same length as normal shield->WD afaik. powershielding doesn't reduce the shield stun (which is 0 in the case of a projectile) or the hitlag, it just lets you attack as if your shield wasn't there.

 

[EWC]

That's not quite right. Powershielding behaves differently for projectiles and for melee attacks. They even have different animations.

When you powershield a melee attack, you still get the full hitlag and stun as a regular shield. The only differences are that you get pushed back further and that you can cancel the shield drop animation into any ground attack.

When you powershield a projectile, the effects are totally different. It completely eliminates hitlag and stun, meaning that you can PS a laser and then do anything the next frame. However, you CANNOT cancel your shield drop with ground attacks. The only things that you can do after powershielding a projectile are the things that you can normally do oos.

Finally, projectiles do give both hitlag and hitstun on shields, just like any other attack. In particular, lasers give 4 frames of hitlag and three of stun. This means that powershielding a laser let's you act oos 7 frames earlier than if you regular shield it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

hmm good to know thanks :D

 

[Tomacawk]

That's not quite right. Powershielding behaves differently for projectiles and for melee attacks. They even have different animations.

When you powershield a melee attack, you still get the full hitlag and stun as a regular shield. The only differences are that you get pushed back further and that you can cancel the shield drop animation into any ground attack.

When you powershield a projectile, the effects are totally different. It completely eliminates hitlag and stun, meaning that you can PS a laser and then do anything the next frame. However, you CANNOT cancel your shield drop with ground attacks. The only things that you can do after powershielding a projectile are the things that you can normally do oos.

Finally, projectiles do give both hitlag and hitstun on shields, just like any other attack. In particular, lasers give 4 frames of hitlag and three of stun. This means that powershielding a laser let's you act oos 7 frames earlier than if you regular shield it.

wow awesome dude. I didn't know this
thank you!

 

[omgwtfToph]

I cant remember who but I swear I just saw a set where somebody was sooo tight that they were able to sidestep a shine grab on the first attempt . and then did it again. I was impressed. I think it was one of the vidz from one of the cali tourneys.

If it's the same one I'm thinking of, it's this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBm_ODQ91Zc


Anyway, I learned a Secret Technique this weekend, from Koto (aka Thunders). It's a guaranteed edgeguard against Peach's umbrella from below the ledge, but it's a little hard to do. Anyway, you grab the ledge, and you know how Peach can kind of float there for a bit and make it really hard to edgeguard the umbrella from below? Especially since it blocks you from shine spiking her or hitting her.

So you grab the ledge, but before you grab it, lightly hold R and toward the stage. Wait until Peach uses the umbrella, and as soon as you see it, hit L (all the way down). You will ledge tech; immediately shine her. Obviously L and R are interchangeable.

You lightly hold R so that, when you hit L, you don't roll up the ledge.

Thought I'd share it on the fox boards cuz I thought it was pretty cool lol.


The more fundamental thing I learned this weekend, is that, when fighting Peach on FD (which I do a lot these days), THE most important thing in the matchup is to DI her dash attack away. If you do that, the best she can get out of a dash attack is another dash attack, then she's done. If you don't DI the dash attack away, she gets a grab, which is always death. I mean, yeah, common sense right? DI the combo move away. But it's Peach's easiest way to get a grab vs. Fox so it's worth noting.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I want to start doing short hop nairs that put me behind their shield to shine turnaround JC grab. I've pretty much never seen anyone use it effectively.

Raise up your shield if you see an early nair coming by tilting the stick up. If you can catch the hit on the top of your shield you have a good chance of shieldgrabbing before your opponent can get the shine out.

The point is to not N-air when you're at the apex of your jump, but when you're like almost at the ground. And then it doesn't work.

 

[JPOBS]

If it's the same one I'm thinking of, it's this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBm_ODQ91Zc


Anyway, I learned a Secret Technique this weekend, from Koto (aka Thunders). It's a guaranteed edgeguard against Peach's umbrella from below the ledge, but it's a little hard to do. Anyway, you grab the ledge, and you know how Peach can kind of float there for a bit and make it really hard to edgeguard the umbrella from below? Especially since it blocks you from shine spiking her or hitting her.

So you grab the ledge, but before you grab it, lightly hold R and toward the stage. Wait until Peach uses the umbrella, and as soon as you see it, hit L (all the way down). You will ledge tech; immediately shine her. Obviously L and R are interchangeable.

You lightly hold R so that, when you hit L, you don't roll up the ledge.

Thought I'd share it on the fox boards cuz I thought it was pretty cool lol.


The more fundamental thing I learned this weekend, is that, when fighting Peach on FD (which I do a lot these days), THE most important thing in the matchup is to DI her dash attack away. If you do that, the best she can get out of a dash attack is another dash attack, then she's done. If you don't DI the dash attack away, she gets a grab, which is always death. I mean, yeah, common sense right? DI the combo move away. But it's Peach's easiest way to get a grab vs. Fox so it's worth noting.

this is incredible if it works 100%. will try sometime today.

 

[KAOSTAR]

ob wow lol. I wish I coulda tried this last night. sounds legit.

and yea that was the match. thanks toph

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

If it's the same one I'm thinking of, it's this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBm_ODQ91Zc


Anyway, I learned a Secret Technique this weekend, from Koto (aka Thunders). It's a guaranteed edgeguard against Peach's umbrella from below the ledge, but it's a little hard to do. Anyway, you grab the ledge, and you know how Peach can kind of float there for a bit and make it really hard to edgeguard the umbrella from below? Especially since it blocks you from shine spiking her or hitting her.

So you grab the ledge, but before you grab it, lightly hold R and toward the stage. Wait until Peach uses the umbrella, and as soon as you see it, hit L (all the way down). You will ledge tech; immediately shine her. Obviously L and R are interchangeable.

You lightly hold R so that, when you hit L, you don't roll up the ledge.

Thought I'd share it on the fox boards cuz I thought it was pretty cool lol.


The more fundamental thing I learned this weekend, is that, when fighting Peach on FD (which I do a lot these days), THE most important thing in the matchup is to DI her dash attack away. If you do that, the best she can get out of a dash attack is another dash attack, then she's done. If you don't DI the dash attack away, she gets a grab, which is always death. I mean, yeah, common sense right? DI the combo move away. But it's Peach's easiest way to get a grab vs. Fox so it's worth noting.

Awesome this works. I hate peach's umbrella recovery

 

[TemPesT-]

wait, so you don't roll unless you fully click in the shoulder button? couldn't you just hold it down as far as possible then?

or am i just misunderstanding the purpose of holding one down a little

 

[omgwtfToph]

other way around. You DO roll if you push the shoulder button slightly in. So, before you grab the ledge, you hold one shoulder button slightly in; that way, pushing the other shoulder button slightly in (or all the way in) will have you NOT roll, because you are already holding that input.

Try it yourself; grab onto a ledge but hold a shoulder button lightly as/before you do it, then push the other shoulder button to roll up the ledge. Nothing will happen.

 

[voorhese]

im confused, why hold either down slightly?

i got it to work by wavedashing backwords (then holding r & forward) then pressing L all the way when i got hit..

i also time the forward/r (all the way down) after shine turn around up b (during up b's stall)

and also just jumping to the edge (i press r & forward as soon as i hit the edge (and before i can input more commands))

 

[omgwtfToph]

I think that if you hold L (or R) in all the way before you grab the ledge, then when you press the other shoulder button in to tech the umbrella, you don't get an input so you don't tech. Cuz the input for a tech is pushing a shoulder button all the way in, and if one shoulder button is pushed all the way in, you can't input a "new" shoulder button input from the other shoulder button.

I'm at work right now so I can't test it out, that's what Koto said though, and he showed it to me with this Peach player who was at the smashfest I was at. Mind you I was on my way out, so I didn't get to try it myself. If you can input a tech while holding the other shoulder button all the way down, then that works too, but I think you can't.

 

[voorhese]

i did tech tho, thats what im saying

 

[omgwtfToph]

oh for real? Aight, I dunno then haha, go with what works then. The point is to avoid rolling so if you got the tech, then just go with that :P

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lightly pressing the button is marginally better because if you get hit in the 1/2 second or so after pressing the trigger all the way in, before you can do the input again to trigger a tech but after your invincibility wears off you are vulnerable.

 

[4 Aces]

If Fox shines Fox/Falco, how does the Fox/Falco NOT fall down? What, crouch cancel?

 

[Tomacawk]

If Fox shines Fox/Falco, how does the Fox/Falco NOT fall down? What, crouch cancel?

CC or phantom hit

 

[Silent Wolf]

ob wow lol. I wish I coulda tried this last night. sounds legit.

and yea that was the match. thanks toph

pretty sure he side stepped cuz he messed up shine oos lol.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

pretty sure he side stepped cuz he messed up shine oos lol.

You talking about avoiding the tech against peach or something else?

 

[TemPesT-]

i think a firestall might be the easiest set up for holding down a trigger.

 

[omgwtfToph]

You talking about avoiding the tech against peach or something else?

He's talking about zhu sidestepping the shinegrab. Could go either way. Socal is way different when it comes to the OOS options they do compared to Washington so it could really go either way, I'd have to ask zhu to know lol. Otto's probably right though. Even so, my initial impression was, "****, zhu is beasting" lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

pretty sure he side stepped cuz he messed up shine oos lol.

aww lol. I was so impressed.

I just thought about all those frame discussions about avoiding shine grabs and how it would be difficult for any normal human being.

I was like + 1 for theory smash.

 

[omgwtfToph]

"+1 for theory smash" happens all the time. You just have to look closer.

 

[Winston]

aww lol. I was so impressed.

I just thought about all those frame discussions about avoiding shine grabs and how it would be difficult for any normal human being.

I was like + 1 for theory smash.

It would be impossible to do on reaction, but it's not hard to buffer a sidestep/roll if you expect it, right?

 

[ArcNatural]

It would be impossible to do on reaction, but it's not hard to buffer a sidestep/roll if you expect it, right?

Correct.

Also EWC,

Do you know how much CCing falco's lasers removes stun or hitlag? Or does it just reduce knockback. I always thought that CCing only reduced knockback but I have never been certain.

 

[4 Aces]

CC or phantom hit

I thought so. Thanks. I saw my friend get hit and sent into stun animation, but he didn't get knocked down, so I was confused.

I'm just going to say it without a video because this thread sucks so much and we need something to talk about.
Against fox and falco, if you get a grab with your back 2-3 wavedashes away from the ledge, do the obvious and upthrow. If they miss their DI, shine them at the very tip of your shine so that it bounces them up and behind you. Waveshine backwards and shine them again--this will send them off the stage and into a ledge guard opportunity (bonus points if you can doubleshine them). Depending on where you hit them with the second [double]shine, they may not be able to double jump high enough to side b. Ledge guard and take the early stock. This is a great set up because it works at low-mid %s and it allows you to put yourself in a great ledge guarding position in a manner which you couldn't achieve with any other moves/combos.
It may take you a little practice to get the timing of the first shine right, and it requires you to have fast and long backwards waveshines, but this is imo a really solid set up that afaik hasn't been done before.
If you've seen the clip of SDM waveshine a fox with fox on corneria, then you already know this is possible.


nope, read above


I can't blame you


FluxWolf is really cool, but it's unrelated to him hating this thread. I hate this thread too right now-it sucks because people are posting like idiots, and they're doing it often. If you don't have a question or a fairly new tactic, there is very little reason to post other than putting your name out there. And I don't think any of you want the publicity that you're bringing yourselves (unless you want people to hate you).

That's pretty cool. Honestly, I wouldn't think too much about difficulty anymore; there has been a lot of things that used to be hard, but now seem easy as hell. It's pretty crazy how the meta has changed. Meh, some time tinkering with this move and I'm pretty sure someone would be bound to make it very useful.

I've been hearing a lot of u-throw --> double shine lately. Does one shine not cut it?

oh, in that case its different.

also i forgot to post this, i explained it to a friend a bit ago

when learning to shine oos (while on the ground) i learned the timing from y->b (same as doubleshines) b4 i add pressing down for my shine oos

the way i did this, was to plug in my controller while holding up on my control stick. Doing so forces your character into holding down so when you pop up ur shield, it is angled down and when you press jump -> b, you automatically shine. once you have the timing down, practice going from standard position of control stick -> down (with out spot dodging) -> jump -> b.

good luck =)

Personally I like to c-stick up, then shine out of shield. Idk which one is faster though. lol

Is the y-->b motion the same as when you try to multishine? Like timing-wise, is it any different?

 

[brawlpro]

I've been hearing a lot of u-throw --> double shine lately. Does one shine not cut it?

ONE SHINE.....cuts it