Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[Sinji]

Everyone please watch

http://www.twitch.tv/peefsmash

 

[Marc]

I used to think it generalized to "don't approach <specific character> ever because whoamagod you'll get ***** or there's no point" but lately I've started realizing that doing the game in that way also means you're not putting pressure on them, which blows for its own reasons. BigD is smart, everyone should listen to him.

It used to be the exact same thing for me. There are some extreme situations where the risk/reward for approaching is questionable in light of other options (Fox vs Jiggs, perhaps?), but in many matchups you will hit a ceiling if all you do is run and (projectile) camp. It makes you predictable and you're not applying pressure. Note that I'm mostly considering top tier characters here, there are low tiers who arguably get completely shut down by camping.

That said, even for many top tier characters approaching safely is hard. The metagame is at a level where even mid-level players know the correct responses to approaches and how to combo/tech chase. The line between offense and defense becomes rather vague when you consider that no approach or spacing is ever 100% safe, especially when reads and tech skill come into play. Space animals clearly excel at straight up attacking someone's shield, but if they're not perfect they will get wrecked for it. I also consider the current metagame to be mostly defensive, though defensive play has moved towards baiting and staying at a close but safe distance rather than straight up spamming and running (except when Armada plays HBox ).

Having played Brawl more recently, I wouldn't necessarily say it's all that more defensive. There are just more matchups where at least until a certain percentage it's not worth it for one party to attack the other, while the other party has no real approach. Many characters struggling to kill, a timer that is arguably too short and prolonged periods of time where someone is at a kill percentage and doesn't want to take risks make it look more campy also, but many dynamics are the exact same as in Melee. The mindset of the communities is different and that shows, but offense vs defense might not be that fundamentally different. I also have to credit the game for making me think about this more and in some ways it might help my Melee.

(I did not read the entire topic btw, bickering gets boring quickly.)

 

[crush]

Meh, not with Powershielding.

Problem is, even at this point in the game, there's nobody that's able to PS reliably enough.

Overtriforce/hbk?

I remember once I was falco vs hbk, and I got hit off the stage and knew I couldn't make it back, so I jumped and shot 3 lasers towards him, and he powershielded the one that was going to hit him lol

 

[Niko45]

Nah lasers really aren't that big a deal. They're **** as an anti air tho you can get good laser -> dash attack/fsmashes on people trying to get back to the ground but other than it's straight mixups.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Overtriforce/hbk?

I remember once I was falco vs hbk, and I got hit off the stage and knew I couldn't make it back, so I jumped and shot 3 lasers towards him, and he powershielded the one that was going to hit him lol

he powershielded one laser in an completely stressless situation where you were already dead and he didnt even have to worry about you possibly comboing off of it whether he got hit or not?

Im pretty sure everyone that is a known tournament player (and most that arent) at this point can do that.

Being able to consistently powershield something when its coming at you at least three times in a row and knowing that if you mess up and get hit youre taking anywhere from 40% to a stock is a far different ordeal.

 

[crush]

he powershielded one laser in an completely stressless situation where you were already dead and he didnt even have to worry about you possibly comboing off of it whether he got hit or not?

Im pretty sure everyone that is a known tournament player (and most that arent) at this point can do that.

Being able to consistently powershield something when its coming at you at least three times in a row and knowing that if you mess up and get hit youre taking anywhere from 40% to a stock is a far different ordeal.

Lol I wasn't trying to use that as an example of him being good at powershielding I just thought that was funny.

 

[Mew2King]

You need a good controller to powershield really well. I'm serious

 

[Pi]

not sure how you mean by 'really well'
but the controller i've had for like over a year now has remained as consistent as i have w/ powershielding
just ur standard issue play Asia white controller

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Powersheilding is fun, even though I think Im pretty good at PS'ing lasers I still feel like I get hit by like half them ****s lol.

Lol I remember that crush, and I think I PS real good vs Stric9 in our sets a while back but he still took a match off and played me real good. It just makes things easier but them lasers still ****

 

[SSBMLahti]

You know who still reppin' those controller johns.

He's borrowed and still has like 50% of the community's controllers.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You can just SDI lasers and punish, too. It catches Falcos off-guard sometimes.

 

[Mew2King]

That is not true at all dude, I could explain in detail if you like. Most all of them I have returned to owners or they let me keep, or i traded for another one, or bought. But every single one of them was an already broken in controller, so the remaining lifespan was small. Example at zenith the entire day of singles I had borrowed a controller, but he was kind enough to let me keep it. At genesis2 same thing, it was a borrowed controller, and I had to return it after the tournament.

 

[Pikaville]

Pretty interesting read there in the OP.

 

[Superspright]

PSing is only a bad option against spacies. Unless I can figure out how to PS the first attack and the subsequent shine, then it's pretty useless. I can PS every attack 'cept phantasm (still eludes me how to do it, and it doesn't seem useful) and I've been punishing with smashes, jabs, or if I get a firefox at my face I jump out of powershield and punish it.

powershielding definitely shuts down approaches, and can lead into deaths. When else are you so vulnerable but after being powershielded?

 

[Pengie]

Power shielding is pretty broken and once people get consistent at it I feel we'll see a big shift in the metagame; however, I wouldn't call it broken because you can always not throw out an attack on your approach if you think they'll PS and now they're shielding and have their options limited. We already kinda see this with some Falco players while they're lasering, so I think it'll be a interesting thing to look for as the metagame keeps evolving.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Power shielding is pretty broken and once people get consistent at it I feel we'll see a big shift in the metagame; however, I wouldn't call it broken because you can always not throw out an attack on your approach if you think they'll PS and now they're shielding and have their options limited. We already kinda see this with some Falco players while they're lasering, so I think it'll be a interesting thing to look for as the metagame keeps evolving.

Its been 11 Years dude, if nobody has that mess consistently yet, i just dont think its going to happen.

 

[gm jack]

People are getting better at it though. It's at the point where it's becoming a standard part of the falco match up, and once it's consistent there, it's a matter of time before people start using it against other things.

 

[da K.I.D.]

once again, look at the time frame youre working with here.

For most characters its becoming something akin to powershield lasers or you lose. And falco is still top 3 in the game. Which means that most people out here are still on the 'you lose' side of that equation.

and after all this time, people are kinda sorta being able to do it semi consistently on that one move...

 

[SSBMLahti]

That is not true at all dude, I could explain in detail if you like. Most all of them I have returned to owners or they let me keep, or i traded for another one, or bought. But every single one of them was an already broken in controller, so the remaining lifespan was small. Example at zenith the entire day of singles I had borrowed a controller, but he was kind enough to let me keep it. At genesis2 same thing, it was a borrowed controller, and I had to return it after the tournament.

Im just being an *** Don't take anything I say seriously lol.

 

[Jim Morrison]

The only way this game is going is in 2 divisions.

The people who want to play aggresive and also be succesful will have to play Falco, Fox and Peach, the people who don't mind playing defensive will play the other characters.

If it were up to me, everyone would play Falco and Fox, then this game would be perfect.

 

[john!]

lol really?

this game would be perfect if fox and falco were removed.

actually, this game would be perfect if fox, falco, puff, and zelda lost their down-b moves

 

[EthereaL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_qs2fSOeG8&t=8m48s

Like, powershielding is really like, really impossible to do, like, with tournament pressure and, like, stuff.

Like, really.

 

[The Star King]

That's nowhere near powershielding consistently, buddy. Bad use of sarcasm is bad.

 

[HomeStylePie]

IMO people tend to overrate both lasers and powershielding. Used aggressively, lasers can help an approach but it can also make you reliant on patterns that are very easy to predict. Laser camping is annoying, but it doesn't do that much damage (for some perspective watch Isai vs. Forward again if you haven't recently). Powershielding can stop an approach and will sometimes get a Falco to shoot fewer lasers, but it doesn't lead to solid punishes very often.

 

[Bones0]

Power shielding is pretty broken and once people get consistent at it I feel we'll see a big shift in the metagame; however, I wouldn't call it broken because you can always not throw out an attack on your approach if you think they'll PS and now they're shielding and have their options limited. We already kinda see this with some Falco players while they're lasering, so I think it'll be a interesting thing to look for as the metagame keeps evolving.

This sort of "revolution" of the metagame you are talking about has already happened. There has already been a large spark of interest in power shielding, and the people that utilize power shielding are as good at it as they will ever be. On the other side, Falco players (and players of all characters) use empty hops to destroy people who (power) shield all the time. The reason this hasn't caused some massive change in the metagame is because they don't change how things are dealt with. Spacing by and large has become the major determinant in whether or not players win. Power shielding and lasering both get beaten by forms of superior spacing, which is why even when people spam lasers or power shield everything, the result doesn't tend to look much different than without them.

 

[EthereaL]

That's nowhere near powershielding consistently, buddy. Bad use of sarcasm is bad.

Ah, I forgot the timer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_qs2fSOeG8&t=8m48s

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

even with the timer, you presented one power shield from that match lol

 

[Jolteon]

Meh, not with Powershielding.

Problem is, even at this point in the game, there's nobody that's able to PS reliably enough.

>Implying that powershielding lasers is difficult.

 

[Mew2King]

the game would be perfect with shine and rest nerfs

 

[gm jack]

even with the timer, you presented one power shield from that match lol

He PSs a load of melee attacks as well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i didnt realise two was a lot...

it also didnt gain him anything in that situation. to the contrary, it got him grabbed.

 

[Superspright]

I still suck at reacting out of PS. I do it 1/2 of the time right. Most of the time I jump out of, but that doesn't really change much--but not getting your shield diminished is very important. I hate getting shield-poked. So I constantly PS everything. The more you PS, the easier it becomes, and the more consistent you'll get with it, and then reacting out of it with smashes, b moves, or grabs will be easier. But, if you aren't getting a massive reward, then there is no point to PS. It's significantly bad to be in shield, and always will be. PS allows you to 'parry' an attack. That's all it's really there for. Parrying doesn't always work though. If a player spaces perfectly, you can't grab; if they overshoot, then you may not be able to react in time; only if they are spacing for a grab afterward, or they massively screw up their spacing does PSing really become viable. It does NOT work on spacies at all [except their smash moves--it freaking ***** their smash moveset entirely]. Plus, for whatever reason it acts like a lightshield in terms of traction, and the damn thing leaves you in any crippling shield-stun you just got dealt. If it was just like the reflector powershield it would be broken.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Are we watching the same video? I saw three PS's in there (I know, not a lot), but those didn't get him grabbed, he messed up an airdodge which got him grabbed.

I think that was Bones said is pretty much spot on. Lots of lasers, or lots of powershielding, it doesn't really matter, because superior spacing will beat both.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

the game would be perfect with shine and rest nerfs

We already have shine though. Rest we can nerf.

 

[Wake]

We already have shine though. Rest we can nerf.

I thought this was pretty clever

 

[EthereaL]

i didnt realise two was a lot...

shielded laser > powershielded attack > powershielded attack > powershielded laser

That's quite impressive, actually...

And, haha. Zhu made me smile.

 

[Rubyiris]

here's how you fix this problem: Play falco/falcon/marth/yoshi

play on mushroom kingdom 2.

ban ******s who run away. alternatively just beat the **** out of them out of game for being little *****es.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you know what would be more impressive, if people could do that all the time.

the fact that 3 powershields is impressive should be telling you something here

 

[EthereaL]

you know what would be more impressive, if people could do that all the time.

the fact that 3 powershields is impressive should be telling you something here

I wasn't saying it was consistent. Just making a sarcastic comment on the "under tournament pressure, you couldn't powershield."

 

[john!]

i think you were trying to make a point that was just wrong.

kind of like "jigglypuff can't approach" LOL