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Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

Hax

Smash Champion
Joined
May 8, 2007
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not approaching is the biggest short-term improvement you can make to your game. this strategy is THE REASON most top placers at nationals are where they are; it's that good. i firmly believe that theoretical top level melee is a game of first hit wins, just because whoever lands the first hit never has to approach their opponent.

as time passes and people become better at the game, their reaction times improve, they become smarter, and plenty of techniques and styles become obsolete, while others prove their worth. in 2011, this notion rings true more than ever; it seems almost as if one specific play style has risen above the rest. this style involves never approaching, never jumping, and crouch-cancelling often. it is responsible for the 8-minute Melee matches we saw at Genesis 2, and it seems to be the direction the game is heading in. pros such as Armada, Hungrybox, Taj, Jman, Shroomed and plenty of others have made it fairly clear to me that defense is superior to offense in Melee. these players prey on players who jump towards them or approach them in general to the point where the best option becomes to use their own medicine against them. what i'm proposing is that Melee has been pushed to the point where, with a few exceptions***, approaching and jumping towards your opponent have become bad.

***to prevent any confusion, i'm going to elaborate on the exceptions to this rule. the exceptions are Fox, Falco, and Peach (and perfect Yoshi, i suppose). what do these 3 characters have in common? godlike, unparalleled shield pressure that is unorthodox for a Melee character. Fox/Falco/Peach's abnormally good shield pressure stems from their abilities to pump out frame advantage attacks on shield twice as fast as other characters (hence, people lol at attempts to shieldgrab these 3 characters). Fox/Falco have aerial -> shine, while Peach has float-cancelled aerials. take a minute to compare this to other characters' shield pressure. most characters aerial the opponent's shield, then either jab or dashdance around their opponent in an attempt to mindgame them. Fox, Falco and Peach hardly have to mindgame their opponents while they shield pressure them. their shield pressure is, for the most part, autopilot. as a result, playing offense is certainly a viable option with Fox/Falco/Peach. defense is still just as deadly with these characters, though.

~

Melee is, by nature, a defensive game. let's analyze some of Melee's characteristics. since i'm making the claim that approaching in Melee is bad, and "bad" is a comparative description, i'm going to compare these characteristics to their counterparts in MvC3, a game i'm familiar with that is much more similar to other fighting games. the remainder of this post will be much easier to comprehend if you already understand the basic characteristics of a traditional fighting game (also, please, nobody interpret this as me saying MvC3 > Melee LOL. i consider MvC3 a joke compared to Melee).

Landing While in an Aerial

MvC3
upon landing with an aerial in any traditional fighter, including MvC3, there is zero landing lag. aerials can immediately be followed by blocking or dashing back, making it much safer to utilize them offensively.

Melee:
even if you L-cancel an aerial in Melee, only half of its lag frames are trimmed. during the remaining landing lag, a character cannot take any actions and is entirely punishable. as a result, it is deadly to miss an aerial while DI'ing forward (approaching) in Melee. doing so puts you in lag and extremely close to your opponent, who isn't in hitstun/is free to punish you. if you whiff an aerial while DI'ing backwards (defending), however, you are almost always too far for them to punish you.

Getting Punished for Whiffing an Aerial While Moving Forward

MvC3
MvC3 utilizes the high/low block system which makes it so that normal attacks either hit high or low, and they will pierce the opponent's shield if they are not blocking the same direction you're attacking from. the key thing to note here is that while on the ground, characters can only use low moves. this means that upon landing with an aerial, a simple low block makes you safe. there are exceptions to this rule, such as overheads, cross-ups, etc., however, the person who whiffed the aerial is given a chance to block all of them.

Melee
you get grabbed. THIS is Melee's flaw. for whiffing an attack while moving forward, you are put in the opponent's grab; among the strongest punishes in the game. THIS is what skews the risk to reward ratio so much; the punishment for making such a minor mistake is far too great.

Other Defensive Mechanisms / Risk vs Reward for Hitting the Opponent

MvC3
upon successfully mixing the opponent up and piercing their block, you are guaranteed a combo that does at least half the enemy character's health (each player has 3 characters); some characters can kill the opposing character in 1 hit. the reward for landing a hit is massive, giving plenty of incentive to approach.

Melee
due to increasingly popular defensive mechanisms such as crouch-cancelling and smash DI, getting a hit on the opponent often doesn't matter. if it was crouch-cancelled, the opponent doesn't have any hitstun and it doesn't lead into a combo. if it was smash DI'd, it doesn't lead into a combo. stronger attacks pierce crouch-cancelling, but they are slower. nowadays, pros have inhuman reaction times; these stronger, slower attacks are virtually impossible to land on any of today's top players while they're crouch-cancelling, since they'll be on the lookout for them.

in order to truly start a combo on a low-% opponent in today's Melee metagame, you must either get a grab (since they can't CC a grab), hit them while they're in the air (see why jumping is bad?), or land a hit that they forgot to crouch-cancel. getting a grab is much more likely to happen vs someone who is approaching you, hitting them while they're in the air is only possible if they're jumping, and hitting them when they aren't CC'd is far more likely if they aren't playing extremely defensively. whereas the risk for approaching is huge, the reward often isn't there.

Getting Pushed to the End of a Stage

MvC3
in traditional fighters, excessively defensive play results in the camper cornering himself. the corner is an absolutely horrible place to be; it gives you no room to mindgame your opponent, weakening your offensive options and strengthening theirs. it is also extremely difficult to escape. if you corner yourself vs a good Magneto, Dante, or Wolverine, ya done son. the existence of a corner encourages a balance between offense and defense.

Melee
you push your opponent to the edge, which, appallingly, can be a GREAT thing for them if they play any of the top tier characters except Fox or Falco. Sheik has a broken ledgestall, broken grab range to bthrow you offstage, and broken edgeguarding to ensure you die once you're off. Marth has everything Sheik has minus the ledgestall. Peach and Jigglypuff both take ZERO risk by being cornered due to their broken recoveries, while simultaneously having broken gimping options (and ledgestalling options in Jigglypuff's case). if you don't play one of these 4 characters, it is generally a BAD idea to fight one of them by the ledge.

Jumping

MvC3
you can block while you jump, so you don't really commit to anything specific. anti-air options are rarely overpowered and can all be countered.

Melee
your two retreat mechanisms (should you see the need to fall back) while approaching in the air are your airdodge, and your second jump. both of these options are absolutely awful so once you jump you're essentially committed. airdodging any direction other than towards the ground leaves you unconscious in the air, while airdodging towards the ground gives you lag frames/doesn't cover much distance/won't protect you from whatever you were trying to dodge with it. using your 2nd jump is the equivalent of giving the opponent your stock since you'll be above them, within their attack range (even if you jump backwards, since you were initially moving towards them), and unable to break out of any combos if they start one.

~

in short, Melee's risk : reward ratio is skewed when it comes to approaching. for the record, i think Melee is a masterpiece that does plenty of things perfectly; approaching just isn't one of them. cornering the opponent should never be bad, jumping shouldn't be as bad, CC'ing/smash DI'ing shouldn't exist (regular DI, on the other hand, is genius), etc.

at full potential, 23/26 (or 22, idk about Yoshi. regardless, the overwhelming majority) of Melee characters should exclusively play defense. 3 (or 4) characters play a mixture of offense and defense due to their broken offensive options still being able to survive in such a defensive game.

this full potential i speak of is finally being reached by the Melee community. people are TOO good at this game now. today's inhuman reactions + smarter players = people utilizing Melee's plethora of defensive options to its full potential and wiping out players that don't camp them just as hard. our game's flawed design is responsible for the homosexuality that has taken it over as of late; Hungrybox has no shame in poking his opponents to death and only approaching when they're clearly aggravated, 5 years later Jman STILL plays like a b*tch (<3), Taj's matches at Genesis 2 must have all gone down to 1 minute or less left on the timer due to his crouch-cancelling/campy style, Shroomed and Armada utilize crouch-cancelling -> dsmash/grab better than anyone i've ever seen, etc. to anyone still in doubt of how OP defense is in Melee, Mango, the best player in the world (until he loses to Armada again he still holds that title IMO), lost 2 tournament sets at Genesis 2 i firmly believe he could have won if he wanted to. noticeable errors are prevalent in his sets vs Taj and Armada; most of them stem from him deciding to have fun with the game and approach. like Mango, i try my hardest to be awesome and approach whenever i can (because captain falcon would never approve of such homosexuality), but sometimes when it just doesn't work i'll feel the need to play to win and camp.

i've referred to this characteristic of Melee as a flaw throughout this post because it impedes on the fun in Melee. a game in which offense is, at full potential, superior to defense, is far more exciting to play and watch than a defensive one. take a blatantly offensive game, MvC2, and compare it to a blatantly defensive one, Brawl, for example. whereas the offensive game is nothing but hype, the defensive one can be hard to watch. i am disappointed that Melee is taking the latter route. yet at the same time, i have to accept that this is its natural progression and that people will always play to win. luckily, i know that no matter how campy Melee gets, ridiculous combos that no other game can match will always exist. :)

this post was meant to be nothing more than a good read/something to think about, which i hope it was. if you're a casual player who has a blast throwing out smash attacks, disregard this entirely. if you're looking to step up your game and win, consider some of the things i said. making the realizations that Melee is a defensive game at its peak, and that top-level play isn't all fun and games, rather, playing to win, can be huge milestones towards success.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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I don't think it's really the players' reaction times that have improved, it's just that they've become better at baiting bad/laggy escape methods. Just by dash dancing often, you instantly make rolling and spot dodging a lot less safe because if they roll or spot dodge at any moment before the actual attack then you can punish them. When rolling and spot dodging are used properly, they aren't that bad, especially if you don't play Falcon who has ****ty versions of both. lol Stuff like spot dodge shine is always going to be effective in certain situations as long as you predict their attack properly.

As far as jumping forward goes, if people can react to people jumping forward then they should be able to react to jumping backwards just as easily. At this point in the logic, both players can react to everything each other is doing, so it's pretty clear this isn't possible, and even if it were possible to react to jumping forward/backward, it wouldn't make approaching any worse than camping.
 

Myztek

Smash Ace
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Approaching when the opponent is in a "neutral" position is always a risk. [by neutral, I mean standing on the ground and not performing a move that has recovery time]

Once the opponent does any move [including jump], their options are immediately limited/changed, and your odds of choosing a successful approach become better.

So, if both players are good enough, it just becomes a game of "Who will make the first mistake?" The one who does make the first mistake will eat a combo or possibly lose a stock.
 

Hax

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Bones0 said:
I don't think it's really the players' reaction times that have improved, it's just that they've become better at baiting bad/laggy escape methods. Just by dash dancing often, you instantly make rolling and spot dodging a lot less safe because if they roll or spot dodge at any moment before the actual attack then you can punish them. When rolling and spot dodging are used properly, they aren't that bad, especially if you don't play Falcon who has ****ty versions of both. lol Stuff like spot dodge shine is always going to be effective in certain situations as long as you predict their attack properly.
dashdancing isn't what punishes the roll/spotdodge; your ability to react to them in time and grab is. spotdodge shine is not "always going to be effective;" nothing that gives the opponent a frame advantage is ever going to be good at theoretically perfect play (which plenty of people are nearing). i can tell you right now that all pros as well as me (don't know if i'm considered one lol) love it when people spotdodge/roll. wanna know why Fox/Falco are the best characters in the game? because if they shield pressure you properly, you're forced to roll with certain characters who don't have OOS options. rolling is that bad.

Bones0 said:
As far as jumping forward goes, if people can react to people jumping forward then they should be able to react to jumping backwards just as easily. At this point in the logic, both players can react to everything each other is doing, so it's pretty clear this isn't possible, and even if it were possible to react to jumping forward/backward, it wouldn't make approaching any worse than camping.
they can react to the backwards jump, but they can't do anything about it. backwards SH nair with falcon, for example, is completely safe if done properly. forwards SH nair, on the other hand, is punishable in numerous ways. this concerns the 2nd half of the post that i'll get into tonight; it'll be good, don't worry. i really have to go now, though.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
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just because jumping in doesn't work on me doesn't mean it's bad <__<

also my reaction time is bad (0.23/0.24 seconds) i just predict and cover approach options a lot

in fact my slow reaction time is the MAIN REASON I'm not going to try to even get into other fighters except smash games. I know how to space to make an anti-approach style, to make up for my bad reaction time. I also have experience and knowledge, and situational understanding of a lot of different situations.
 

Myztek

Smash Ace
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just because jumping in doesn't work on me doesn't mean it's bad <__<

also my reaction time is bad (0.23/0.24 seconds) i just predict and cover approach options a lot

in fact my slow reaction time is the MAIN REASON I'm not going to try to even get into other fighters except smash games. I know how to space to make an anti-approach style, to make up for my bad reaction time. I also have experience and knowledge, and situational understanding of a lot of different situations.
Why is your reaction time bad?
 

Bones0

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dashdancing isn't what punishes the roll/spotdodge; your ability to react to them in time and grab is. spotdodge shine is not "always going to be effective;" nothing that gives the opponent a frame advantage is ever going to be good at theoretically perfect play (which plenty of people are nearing). i can tell you right now that all pros as well as me (don't know if i'm considered one lol) love it when people spotdodge/roll. wanna know why Fox/Falco are the best characters in the game? because if they shield pressure you properly, you're forced to roll with certain characters who don't have OOS options. rolling is that bad.



they can react to the backwards jump, but they can't do anything about it. backwards SH nair with falcon, for example, is completely safe if done properly. forwards SH nair, on the other hand, is punishable in numerous ways. this concerns the 2nd half of the post that i'll get into tonight; it'll be good, don't worry. i really have to go now, though.
Dash dancing doesn't punish roll/spot dodge, but it's the most effective way of being able to react to them without being in danger of getting hit. You completely took my quote out of context. I didn't mean spotdodge shine will always work, I meant it will always have a place in the metagame. As long as you can predict an attack correctly, you can spot dodge it and shine immediately before they can do anything about having missed the attack. I also understand rolling is in general a bad idea, but it's used effectively all the time in top level play. Not all rolls are as obvious as the ones people get forced into during shield pressure.

I play Falco vs. Marth all the time, and there is no possible way I could win without SHFFLing an approach. I can't just fade away dairs all game, cause he will just slam me with his 10-foot sword or swoop in with his 11-foot grab range. I can't full hop because then he has mad control, and if I stay grounded I have to shield as it becomes a 50-50 chance of getting dash attacked or grabbed.

I'm not even trying to argue that you have to approach to win (though I definitely believe that). All I'm saying is you can't simply just react to any of the mixups available to an approaching player as he performs them. There are some things you have to predict because it's just too fast to react to.
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
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Maybe it's just me but I think it all comes down to knowing which moves will easily be countered and find a counter to that counter and have a solid mix-up game. ALso in a metagame where no one approaches wouldn't approaching become a really out there tactic that wouldn't be predictable seeing how no one approaches? It's just being ahead of the metagame with your sytle
 

S l o X

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this is basically what i learned to do with falcon. you can't do **** if they have DECENT reaction time so i just fade back nairs and if i get that hit, i can finally do something.

the game changes when the opponent is someone like falco - who has a broken projectile.
 

Myztek

Smash Ace
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Falcon tilts are underrated.

Approaching is a good idea depending on matchup.

It's just about giving yourself better options than your opponent, and then choosing the correct ones. I feel this needs visual representation.
 

Max?

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I haven't read this yet, but just based on the title, I know this is gonna be a good one.

*subscribes*
 

kupo15

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I'll wait to see what hax has to say but I atm I feel like this can't be applied to slow characters like ganon. His aerials are great at controlling space. But let's see what Hax writes tonight
 

Pi

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approaching is bad...?
no, approaching predictably is bad
there are tons and ton's of ways to approach, and SOME of them are actually safe
just because you can't shffl ur way to victory doesn't mean approaching doesn't work
 
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approaching is bad...?
no, approaching predictably is bad
there are tons and ton's of ways to approach, and SOME of them are actually safe
just because you can't shffl ur way to victory doesn't mean approaching doesn't work
I think the point is this: When you approach, you're giving your opponent a CHANCE to predict you. There are many good approach options, but there is always a chance that your opponent will read/predict and react accordingly, effectively gaining the upper hand. If you don't approach but leave your opponent to it (esp. if you're already in the lead), then your retreats are much safer while the opponent has a chance of falling to predictability.
 

Pi

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we're just leaving the spam tech skill/fast shffl pressure meta and the people who are winning have adapted past that into what beats it, aka counter approach, it's just how the game progresses @.@

@IE
a prediction is just that no matter which way you spin it, in the end it's just a guess and whether ur approaching or counter-approaching if ur forced to predict ur forced to take a risk and you could be wrong either way.

if i'm samus vs. falcon and i 'predict' he's going to shffl a nair at me and i go for a CC, and he instead comes in w/ a delayed nair/dair well that counter's my CC, and if i'm able to see that before hand i'll be forced to sheild, and if he's delayed it he can shield my UB, or roll away, or something like that

does that mean that i'm just bad for not punishing his approach? or does that just mean he countered my prediction?

i'm not saying that waiting for ur opponent to approach isn't good, ffs i play samus i know it's good, but i also know very well how it can be countered. sorry that you can't just spam l canceled aerials into jabs/shines at ur opponent atm, people have adapted to it, now it's ur turn

and it's not even like ur opponent can back up forever, walk at the mother ****er and i promise u he will 'approach' u.

i'm just curious as to who hax just got **** on by to cause him to make this thread
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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I'm confused. You cited how bad rolling and spotdodging to support the idea that defense/camping in this game is too good?

Iunno, maybe I'm missing something but just about every top player approaches every once in a while.
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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reaction time wont ever catch up to the ability to counter every approach

players need to make themselves vulnerable to a certain option to protect themselves from others, once the opponent is within a certain range

if never approaching was the perfect style, im pretty sure the metagame would have evolved to reflect that by now. dont claim that "people only dont do it because its gay" or w/e else like that, plenty of bad players attempt these styles and lose anyway

i just dont believe that reaction time will ever reach the level at which the player can adjust as often as necessary for every small movement by the other player, hence why keeping pressure on people and not letting them set up their walls is still a very good tactic, provided solid execution
 

choknater

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haha. this is a big generalization but i've always thought to be an EC mentality. or at least.. everywhere but norcal.

norcal's top players have always been fairly aggressive. currently we got shroomed who jumps forward ALL DAY. he even does random dash attacks.

maybe people just haven't figured out how to footsie doc yet.
 

Kal

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Texas is similarly quite campy. Very few of us take the time to actually approach when we play. One of our best players literally never does anything but dash dance camp. It's very annoying, especially in friendlies. Naturally, this causes him to do worse in matchups where it's not an efficient strategy (he mains Marth), such as vs. Sheik, Fox, Falco. But in general I think it's not a very good strategy, as it fails to achieve any success if your opponent does the same.

There are cases where it's a better idea, obviously. If, for example, you main Fox, Falco or Sheik, most of the time there is no reason to approach. Better to rack up damage with your projectile and wait for an opportunity created by your opponent, since your projectile forces them to approach anyway.

Obviously the above is a huge generalization, and it doesn't get in depth on what it means to approach. The point I'm making is just that camping is a tool, and it's not universally better than approaching. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But to fixate on a strategy which only works sometimes means that you will eventually lose when you encounter the situation where it does not work.
 

BigD!!!

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let me put what i said plainer

if you don't approach, they get to choose how and when to fight you
 

Kal

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I'm not sure if your response is to imply that approaching is universally better than camping. That is certainly untrue.

You also mention the following:

i just dont believe that reaction time will ever reach the level at which the player can adjust as often as necessary for every small movement by the other player, hence why keeping pressure on people and not letting them set up their walls is still a very good tactic, provided solid execution
and it's important to realize that it may not even be possible to react to every approach, even in theory. There are limitations within the game. Having good reaction time is great, but even perfect reaction time still requires responses which actually work.

Like I said, camping is a tool. Sometimes it's better not to approach, and sometimes it's better to approach. Knowing when each should be applied is what makes for a better player.
 

The Upholder

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You can approach without risking anything. We use the term spacing all the time, correct? Think of it as a battle for space.

Essentially, know at all times what the closest possible distance you can get without risking anything is. Stay at that distance. If your opponent retreats, you push forward. If they push forward, they're pushing into your zone, and you have the advantage. When you think of brawl camping, you think meta knight sitting on the ledge attacking people who get near. That is a winning strategy when you get the first hit. Of course, meta knight is ********, so that's not that difficult, whereas in this game, unless you're fox spamming lasers against a person who can't dodge, getting the first hit is difficult if both players are being smart. So both players have to approach. What's bad is not approaching, but approaching too closely. Basically, your optimum position is the perfect spot that is as close as possible without putting yourself into danger. Of course, one player is eventually going to have to move in, which is where prediction comes in.

I know that was lot to say not alot, but it seemed to me that people were taking away from this that it's best to stay as far away as you can get and defend, where it's not. It is, as strange as it seems, to aggressively camp.

The real difficulty comes in taking several factors and knowing where that perfect spot is. You have to know your reaction time, every different approach your opponent has, and how close you can get to them while still being to react in the appropriate manner. Then you realize that your opponent is constantly moving, and sadness ensues.

People have often contemplated about the "best" character, if that character was played by someone who was perfect. They waste their time, because if everyone was played perfectly, no one would ever get hit.

Fortunately, no one is perfectly precise, and as a result people do eventually hit each other, because no one is capable of calculating that perfect space, and eventually someone will mess up, but people are capable of being approximate. People who camp by staying as far away as they can are basically saying they aren't capable of figuring anything out/have too slow a reaction time and have given up.

However, since we know people cannot respond to everything, safe approaching consists of evaluating where your opponent's safe space is, and getting inside that in the quickest, smallest, and trickiest way.
 

TaFoKiNtS

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I would also testify that I think it's also due to melee players figuring out better option selects and recognizing terrible habits of their opponents.

When I played some of my friends who quit circa 2007, they were frustrated that they seemed to get hit no matter what they do. Now, we see more frame specific options that cover much more than before.

Some examples that we see
1. Fox and Falco's shield pressure on most characters
2. Falco covering more options on techs (watch Dr. Peepee)
3. Falcon aerial --> gentlemen (2009) as opposed to falcon aerial --> runaway or another aerial (2006)
4. Armada's peach eliminating recovery options, both on and off stage.

The main reason why rolling and spot dodging don't work as glamorously is because people's approaches and counters will include covering the spot dodge among the other things they want.

1. Ex. OOS Falcon Dair that is well spaced will beat spot dodging and dashing, while not being vulnerable to shield, and only loses to utilts from certain characters.

People are not thinking in terms of, "he shields, so i'm going to grab as my priority", rather people evaluate options in terms of, "what is the safest option that can punish most other options (tilts, roll, shield, and spot dodges).
 

KirbyKaze

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Approaching is a good idea depending on matchup.
Approaching is good if... approaching is good in that situation.

I used to think it generalized to "don't approach <specific character> ever because whoamagod you'll get ***** or there's no point" but lately I've started realizing that doing the game in that way also means you're not putting pressure on them, which blows for its own reasons. BigD is smart, everyone should listen to him.

It is my hope that Hax's theory will not come into reality and the game's offense will shift to emphasize finding spacings that you can get into and attack safely from to cover multiple defensive options against the defending character but... I'm also aware that not every character can really do that or has safe options from their feasible "approach distance". So while I hope that the game doesn't become a hyper-defense, bait-only, fake-approach-4-lyfe, approach-only-as-a-mixup deal... it certainly looks like it could go in that direction for a lot of characters.

I'm optimistic, though. I think there's still a big enough reward for finding a way to attack someone with enough of the good characters for approaching to be a very important and useful skill. :)



I find the comparison between sidestep and jumping forward kind of poor, though. I find the biggest issues with sidestep (aside from the lag) are that the game cues to the opponent that they're sidestepping as soon as they do it and the next 20 or so frames are always going to be the same, whereas with a jump forward they still have a bunch of options available (double jump [sometimes waveland after that], a bunch of different attacks, fast fall waveland back, etc) with varying viability that require different counters. The lack of variance in sidestep means you really can just learn a generic timing to beat it whereas the added options out of jump add some stuff to consider and not every character can a cure-all that beats every attack from that position (although I guess a bunch of them can force resets to neutral positioning so... I don't have a good follow for that). Another reason I think sidestep has died down in usage is that we like to emphasize position a bit more than we used to, and sidestep doesn't really have that much potential to affect the positioning game very significantly (unless it's an extremely situational **** sidestep, like a sidestep vs a really overshot aerial or something).

I think jumps, movement-based stuff (includes roll), and attacks (character dependent) began to see use over sidestep in a lot of situations because people realized that they force the opponent to be roughly as on point as they were vs the sidestep (character dependent, somewhat) and that they could keep their options open more effectively that way. They also (should have) realized that those sorts of things were better at handling certain kinds of waiting strategies out of tech chases and after flubbed combos...
 

Hax

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bump; the final version is up. i suppose i deviated from the original post; Bones, you were right - I realized players getting smarter has had just as much to do with it. hope it was alright; just wanted to get these thoughts across
 

Winston

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reaction time wont ever catch up to the ability to counter every approach

players need to make themselves vulnerable to a certain option to protect themselves from others, once the opponent is within a certain range

[...]

i just dont believe that reaction time will ever reach the level at which the player can adjust as often as necessary for every small movement by the other player, hence why keeping pressure on people and not letting them set up their walls is still a very good tactic, provided solid execution
BigD said pretty much what I wanted to say about this and he worded it better than I would have... so I'll just quote him so more people might read it

It is my hope that Hax's theory will not come into reality and the game's offense will shift to emphasize finding spacings that you can get into and attack safely from to cover multiple defensive options against the defending character but... I'm also aware that not every character can really do that or has safe options from their feasible "approach distance". So while I hope that the game doesn't become a hyper-defense, bait-only, fake-approach-4-lyfe, approach-only-as-a-mixup deal... it certainly looks like it could go in that direction for a lot of characters.
As long as approaching is still something you can do as a mixup, doesn't that mean that the balance of offense and defense is still at least acceptable, even if it is imperfect? That implies that there are still things that their defensive algorithm doesn't cover on reaction. So the reward is there for approaching some of the time, as long as the reward for a successful approach is sufficient compared to the defender's reward for beating one. I think even a character like falcon has access to this because his overshot knee/stomp approach beats CCing (and block, often times) and will almost always lead to a big combo opportunity for him.

Most everyone (including me) would say that a purely defensive game is bad, but I think a game where you can approach "not as a mixup" isn't so good either, because that implies they don't really have good options to counter your approach. So you just like... run at each other a lot? I dunno, maybe I'm taking your words too literally, or my understanding of what "as a mixup" means is flawed.
 

KirbyKaze

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I kind of worded that badly but I was thinking of few things and it came out totally bonkers.

Take two!

Okay, first, I think as we get better defenses a lot of the low tiers and mid tiers are gonna inevitably lose a lot of whatever approach game people think they have right now. It's possible a lot of them are just underdeveloped but currently it's just too easy to shut out a lot of them with simple movement defenses, abuse their disproportionately bad landing lag on aerials, or take advantage or whatever other crippling flaws their current standard approaches have. How high the loss of approaching will go up on the tier list (and which lower characters will be exempt from it) I am uncertain about, though.

Depending on how high the loss of approaching goes, I'm concerned the community opinion will reach a point where everyone just "knows" that camping is the only way to win and approaching is horrible; zoning and camping only metagame. If real approaching still occurs it will be done mostly because the bulk of our community are not patient enough to play 100% defense and they'll get so impatient they can't take it anymore and lob out an attack, realize what they've done, and then think "Oh god if only I camped harder!" And it'll perpetuate the mindset, even if approaching wasn't the problem but something else was (move choice, execution, etc).

But once the panic's over, I think that there's gonna be more emphasis on finding a range you can swing from to cover a bunch of options. But I think in order to get the opponent there we're gonna need to be doing a lot more zoning. I think movement manipulation is really important in this game; the characters that will retain good approaches will be the ones that have some kind of inherent trait(s) that limit how the opponent can maneuver the level and/or force certain styles of attacks easily. Projectiles, crouches, stuff like that.

My fear, however, is that there won't really be enough of it to go around. Projectiles and other tools like that are pretty underpowered on a lot of characters. And even characters as good as Sheik run risks when they try to cover space effectively just as a result of their physics and mediocre aerial mobility. And Peach, despite her great game once inside someone, can't really approach without a set up, and she only gets one real shot to influence the opponent's movement with her veggie and then she has to rely on her air > ground transition. Which is slow.

I dunno. Probably won't be "defend only" metagame but I could very easily see a shift to 5+ min matches being the standard for a lot of characters, at least in hyper competitive circles.

I am interested to see how it all turns out.


.
 

Roneblaster

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Upholder what ur calling approaching isnt the same thing as what hax is saying. Hax is trying to hit the opponent, ur description is pressuring the opponent.

I feel that hax is right, but i dont think people will just stop approaching.

:phone:
 

Battlecow

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What Hax feared actually happened in 64. Don't know if anyone watched the Genesis 2 Isai/boom stuff, but there were a lot of 8 and 9 minute matches. At the time it seemed like a one-time bummer, because boom hates hyrule and camped the **** out of it to prove a point, and Isai was playing Luigi and other no-approach characters for fun.

Then Isai went to Tacna. The Tacna matches were so great that it was easy to overlook, but when Isai played Gerson (the best Tacnian player) he got his **** pushed in a couple of times, because Gerson would not approach. there were literally 3-4 minute sessions of Isai SHDL'ing mindlessly and Gerson hopping around in the **** tent until Isai got bored and approached or Gerson thought that Isai might not be paying attention and approached. Isai ended up figuring out gerson a little and winning most of the matches fairly convincingly, but at the peak of the homosexuality the matches were taking 12-13 minutes- I would literally fast forward a minute, look to see if anyone had lost stock, then either fast forward another minute or go back and watch the 0-death combo. **** sucked. Now, I blame dumb stage rules for a lot of that, but it showed what happens when defense > offense.

Not gonna lie, the prospect of top-level 64 or melee turning into that exclusively frightens me a lot.
 

Pi

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risk:reward ratio's can always change in this game

just because the meta for approaching hasn't caught up to the meta for being defensive doesn't mean it can't or won't
 

ShroudedOne

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@Battlecow: I heard about that. I'm assuming you guys don't have time limits in 64?

Normally, I defend defensive play, but stuff like that seems like someone who knows he has less skill simply just wants to run away and hope for the other player to mess up. Good thing Isai is too good.
 

KirbyKaze

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risk:reward ratio's can always change in this game

just because the meta for approaching hasn't caught up to the meta for being defensive doesn't mean it can't or won't
This is very optimistic and there are definitely benefits to approaching. And it's probably not as developed as defense is because of where the game has been going in the past while with so many floaties in the top circles. But I think offense is generally flimsy in this game and it's hard to see how it could get better in an obvious way. If you actually take a look at how weak most block strings and projectiles are on the whole it's pretty sad.
 
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